WR-
The healing process is going to take years. If your husband is an SA, you are looking at 3-5 years for the marriage to heal.

If your husband is having affairs (even of the EA kind), your marriage is still going to take years to heal from. I think for physical affairs, recovery is still 2-5 year process.

You and your husband have taken your first steps on a very, very long marathon.

Pace yourself.

MIL has said she will not take him in under any circumstances, whether he decides to leave or whether he decides to be such an awful WS that I kick him out, she believes his leaving is the undoing of himself. She said to help and enable would be participating in his self-destruction, and she won't have even a bit of it, as it would be no different than him asking her to help him weave the rope with which he intends to hang himself.

I will not dilute the situation, and YES he does dig his heels in. It's so funny, really, for as much as he kept whacking me with "I just may leave then" that suddenly he won't. He is still in the basement and that is an annoyance, but all of the sudden his arseholish behaviors are disappearing. He even flirts with me a tiny bit. I think I shocked the sense back into him when I told him POINT BLANK that having him under my roof is no great priviledge such that it warrants my subjecting myself to endless bullchit. I told him that he had the choice to leave, and that I was ready to help him pack RIGHT NOW. Suddenly it's, "Oh- wait, I told you I was staying to work on this."

He is booked to see the new counselor on Friday.

It seems to throw him for a loop that I am no longer pathetic and fearful. My IC said I actually glow like a different person than she has seen in all of this, and feels I have sufficient awareness of my own demons that I am ready to work on the relationship issues and cease IC. She's checking among her colleagues who she feels are the highly skilled MCs to see whom we can see. I thought H might be happy about this, because one of his gripes is that we're paying (sliding scale) out of pocket for MC and it's a burden, and with my IC's referal it could be covered under me by insurance. H, though, seemed to take it as "Wait, you're ready for release and I'm still messed up? Nope, you're as messed up as me." I think I calmed him when I assured him it didn't mean that my demons were gone, but that my IC believes I know how to spot them and do battle with them, which is essential if I am to be part of a successful relationship. Poor boy just can't be happy. I pray Friday proves to be incredible...

I flip flop back and forth with whether it's SA or midlife crisis or ??? Either way, I just want to start onward down the actual path home. I'm almost 29, and I want more children, so wasting time forever and a day in lala-crapla land is not appealing.

Right. But likely your husband won't be "fixed" in 3-6 months. I would also not consider this time to be wasted. I personally don't consider time for personal growth and healing wasted time. However long it takes your husband to grow, it takes to grow. You can't rush his dealing with this process because of IF.

And I understand how you feel, as I have IF issues as well.

I personally decided what I could and could not handle, with repsect to bringing another life into this world into an uncertain, unstable marriage. It wasn't an issue of what I wanted, it became an issue of what was best for my kids.

And you won't know what kind of marriage you'll have until you give it time.

Maybe I was a little too flip when I said wasting time... what I mean is... well I see it like a funnel. Until we're in the tunnel path, we're dilly dallying in the top cup and can spill out every which way... I want to get the heck onto THE path because I know it will take time. This last 4.5 months feels like an eternity.

LMAO- While I was at work he was behaving, though he was Googling "manipulation," "emotional manipulation" Seriously?!?! Umm, hey buddy, whatcha think YOU have been doing with threatening to leave and sleeping downstairs??? Oy Vey!

OK, is this a term that came up at counseling? That is so odd a guy would goggle that.

I know. It almost makes me think some woman told him that. Sorry to be a downer, but better safe than sorry.

I dunno if that exact term came up, but that has been a fallback argument for a longtime. You see, in my WH's world, I am only saying he is not acting like himself because that makes the pain less for me. It's not that he is truly and eerily midlife crisisy and oft recognizable only by his fingerprints, and that statement that he IS unrecognizable is bullchit to him. I had hoped to conquer that with reason, and that's why I went intervention style and brought in his mom and letters from close friends who agree. He side-steps all of that and still asserts that it is MY way of trying to make this all easier on me, which maeks zero sense considering that virtually everyone we know says he's got some screws loose. And, unfortunately, our MC just kept saying how he saw nothing wrong with H's thinking, and supposedly his <now former> IC had the same opinion. UGH. Manipulation makes it all sound so bad and nefarious, and if he wants to he can twist that and find me there... I'm so sick of this sh1t, and worry I will be forced to evoke the YOU WILL LEAVE strategy. I will stick to my guns if he crosses any of the lines I have laid out, but I soooo don't want it to go there... I'm just biding time for now until his IC session Friday with the new counselor.

I think the best way to combat that attitude is to keep it simple.

You think I'm manipulating you? I am not. I am telling you what I am willing to live with. If that is not what you are willing to live with, we no longer have a marriage.

That way, it's about you and not him, and it is now he who has a choice to make.

I hope it works itself out, because in truth, aren't we all manipulating at some point or another? I mean, people do have wants and needs. It's not as if I am trying to make something bad happen. GRRR aliens are frustrating little sh1ts!

OK, WR

I think you need to let go of the idea that you can or ANYONE can convince your husband he has a screw loose.

You know it. His friends know it. His family knows it.

But educating him falls into a disrespectful judgment. Actually the crackpot therapist you fired, deservedly so, was right that mid life crisis is not a diagnosis. There is no mid life crisis pill, although a red corvette can help

I know you are trying to help, and are not trying to be manipulative, but I think you are giving him some ammunition. He can use it against you with the crackpot therapists. He can use it against you in his own junky mind, and other woman can use it against you as they tell your husband his wife just doesn't understand him like they do.

cp is right about making it about you.

Oh, and at the early stages of my husband's first affair, he wa completely whacked. Even before I discovered the affair, his mother asked him to get a check up because they thought he might have a brain tumor.

This is classic behavior, and it won't stop until the root cause is exposed. Even then it takes a long long time.

You may have posted this, but do you have a concise list of lines you have laid out?

By the way, did your husband agree that the therapist should be fired?

If there is an A, ongoing, there is zero evidence. He doesn't usually have a cell (a prepaid, but rarely carried, and it's for me to contact him so he doesn't even have the number LOL)) Anything that happens on the computer is completely reviewable by me, through my special methods. Only place left to watch is the phone bill and I haven't seen anything there. If he honestly had something going at work, I doubt he'd be trying so hard to get the heck out of that job and that he'd fight my moving him up there.

I listed out "the list" to him, multiple times. I have thought about putting it in writing, but that seemed perhaps "over the top." I do, however, think I may need to begin constructing my Plan B letter so that if he is ready to go or be sent on his way, that I am ready with the letter. (How many WSs crumble at the letter stage, I wonder?)

No, he did not want to fire the MC as the session ended, but later he conceded that we had both talked about it before and that we both had gripes with him. I griped that sessions seemed to be all about laying me out naked and filleted on the railroad tracks, and H griped that MC seemed to shut him down from expressing to me his thoughts and feelings in favor of him doing that in IC, so I'd be less hurt. (I'm not sure there is awesome value in repeatedly hearing, in and out of session, "I love you, but I'm not in love with you" "I've never been sexually attracted to you, but you know, a mand can do anything... I mean, I'm not saying you are repulsive or anything, but you are NOT attractive to me" or "<EA> woman isn't the source of our problems, she just helped me see the light" etc etc etc... but anywho, NOW I beleive we are both on the same page with regard to having fired the MC, though as we were walking out and he felt the MC was totally on his side, he wasn't quite there yet.

If you are hear long enough, you will be amazed at how people can figure out how to carry on affairs. I know you are not ruling out the possibility. My husband conducted a lot of his first one with a phone card.

But that is not the point. I know you are looking for everything and anything.

It seems reasonable to hope that someone...family, friend or professional...will be able to "reach" your husband, make him see the light, and he will come back.

It is possible, of course, and it is great your husband is seeking help, but the process usually doesn't happen that way. As a previous poster said earlier, most often they have to hit rock bottom.

Yes, you should have a Plan B letter written. It will help clarify your own boundaries and you may need it at a time that you are emotionally charged.

DON'T tell your husband of your plan. It is enough that he knows you will show him the door.

I would write down your list that you have verbally given your husband, maybe have it ready for Friday. Anything verbal can be genuinely misconstrued or your husband can use it to manipulate a situation. "You never said that." "I didn't hear that." "I would never agree to that." Whatever....

What exactly did you tell him?

I told him there were 2 options before him, and that in the future if his behavior doesn't stay appropriate there will be no choice for me other than to pack him. I told him I don't want to have to throw him out, but that I have come to realize that it's not such a great privilege to have his mere presence, and thus I have boiled it down that I want HIM living with us, not this new him that has not been worthy of the privilege of living with us.

He had already agreed at the earlier convo with his mom that he would see this new Psychologist, so that was already set.

I told him that to stay, he MUST be worthy of staying. That means NO rude comments, NO dishonesty, NO treating me like I'm his maid and servant by neglecting his chores to try to push me into nagging him to do them. I told him that I was tired of hearing about his pessimism, and that if he continues to voice it at every moment to try to offend me and distance me that it will indeed distance me, because I will pack him. I told him that to be HERE he must actually BE HERE, and WANT TO BE HERE, and TRY TO BE HERE. I also told him that he can dump the cache and delete the history all he wants, but that I have learned how to recover the lost data and all it does is piss me off. No more porn, no more erotic photography sites, none of that crap that removes our focus from the US that we are trying to fix. I also told him that when I have to squeeze by him to grab something for kiddo, he is to stop acting like my touch is a cootie touch or molestation, because our kid doesn't need to see this immaturity because no one ever died of having their back bumped or arm bumped. He said he was going to be mindful of these conditions, and at that point he wishy washed a little, he told me he would not play the Facebook sexy games and that if he indeed chose to change that stance that he'd man-up and be honest. He has not played the Facebook text-based flirty games since, and has told me that he will tell me if and when he does.

I also told him that if he is romanticizing being out, that I was going to clear a few things up for him. Number one, me being his "best friend," HAHAHA UMMM NO. If you are OUT, you are OUT. I will not be your friend, take your phone calls or spend time with you so you can be entertained and less lonely out there. I said "If you want independence, buddy you will get it." I also told him that he should have no illusions that I will take in a roomie or otherwise add more stress to my child and I by changing our lives to help our budget to be able to afford his independent living situation. I told him that if I am forced to put him out,or he decides to leave, he will leave with a list of basic requirements to be considered for eligibility for return AND that doing and being all of the things on the list should not be construed to be a contract that mandates me to open the door and move him back in. I told him that his little idea about how he can come over after work to kiss his sleeping kid, and come over before work sometimes to be the one to get kid ready for school is a NO GO. That life on the outside will not include me at all, and that child will be available every other weekend and an evening a week for visitation, transfered through an intermediary. I told him that if he needed more money to move out, well then he can man up and get a second job because it's NOT my problem and it's NOT kiddo's problem. The locks will change. Furthermore, I let him know that being out isn't to be an excuse to whore it up, and that I have more people out there feeding me info than he cares to know, and I will catch him and the door will surely never open again, and just to be uber-safe, he'd need a full STD battery to be considered for comeback after a trip out. I told him that though I do love him, I am through taking all the crap.

He decided to stay, and I reitterated, "Don't [censored] with me. If you do, I will have no choice. I love you, but I love myself enough to know I am worthy of being more than a victim."

Wow, you laid down the gauntlet. It sounds like you got his attention.

My guess is he will eventually push you to act, by displaying inappropriate behavior a drip at a time, to make you the bad guy in the end. Be careful of becoming his mommy/wife.

Others on here can advise you better, but I think you may have some legal issues. I know when a friend discovered her husband's affair while he was on a business trip, she packed a few things for him and changed the locks. He went to the police and was escorted into the house, since he had a legal right to his own home.

I don't know if your husband would seek legal council before he left, but a lawyer may caution him to stay until papers were drawn up because leaving the house could be viewed by the court as abandonment.

It may also be sticky to endorse any kind of visitation schedule without a legal agreement, since I think he has equal rights to his child, too.

You may want to consult with a lawyer first before you really Plan B.

If you stated your list to him in an emotionally charged situation, you should calmly discuss them again, and I would suggest writing them out, so there are no misunderstandings.

Of course he could even accidentally slip with a rude comment, the cootie thing, whatever. You need to plan how you would handle each infraction and how long. If he is rude, for instance, I would plan out a response which does not feed the situation, but is not over the top threatening either. How do you see yourself handling the small stuff?

Good job painting a picture of what it would be like if he left. But really, don't give him any more information about Plan B. Just be ready to do it.

What role will you have the session on Friday?

Ha. If I kicked my H out and changed the locks, and he got the police to let him back in, he would come home the next day to find them locked again. And the next day. And the next. And the next.

And I'd be videotaping every move he made, every word he said. I may not have much going for me, but I have a stubborn streak you wouldn't believe. No one bullies me like that.

WR, I loved your post, and I am going to crib it if you don't mind and give it to another poster who would benefit from the example.

So, have you talked to a lawyer, especially regarding custody?

The courts ARE giving fathers equal access these days. I have a friend. Her ex is a raging alcoholic. He gets the same visitation schedule you've propsed, and that's unsupervised.

My husband, if he would have remained a sa, likely would have gotten joint custody. Furthermore, I'd have to pay child support.

Is your name only on the mortage? Are you completely prepared to financially separate from your husband? Do you know, exactly, how to proceed to kick your husband out, lawfully, so it doesn't hurt you in the end?

Have you discussed with a counselor the effects of never acknowleging your child's father with your child?

My point is, that I still think you are reacting emotionally to everything, and laying this at the feet of your husband to fix.
I'll agree he's the "broken" one, but you ARE part of the relationship.

I haven't seen you look at your part, your half. I haven't seen you say, "Today to recover from this I'm going to.."

Instead, I'm seeing you (from what you've posted) begin to display codependant behavior-the unhealthy kind that comes being in a dysfunctional relationship. I'm seeing you set boundaries that legally, you may not be able to keep.

I'm hearing that you are deciding what your husband can/can't feel around you. That he WILL do things, rather than the two of you working together to be a team on household duties. That your husband needs to tip toe around you so he doesn't piss you off.

I'm sorry you feel like your husband must "earn" his way to stay in a marriage with you. Is this because you've been the "better" mate? My husband, yes, has to work to earn my trust. But, I'm in no place to place judgement on his worthy-ness. That's not up to me to decide. That's up to my maker.

So, let's forget about your husband for a minute. What are you doing to help yourself heal from this? What are you doing to take care of yourself-you (and your child) are your responsibility.

Could you do me a favor? Please search for any of Loving Anyway's posts and read them. They are dense, but so worth it.

FHL- Sadly, Friday, I have no role. Frankly, it makes me nervous. I wish I could accompany him With regard to the visitation thing, unless he gets another job, his schedule is such that he really can't do much more than that, anyway. No court in the land will mandate visits starting at 10:30PM, and he works every other weekend, so the best he could hope is that the courts give him his off weekends and the mornings on his on weekends. We can't afford lawyers, so I highly doubt we'll go formal on this stuff. I have thought of having him sign an agreement, though, at one of his nicer moments, just to give me 1/4 ounce of security. He tried to slip a rude comment by on Saturday morning and start a trip down the new-him-jerky-lane, and I think it was a test of my seriousness, and I very calmly said, "I'm sorry, am I to take it that you have changed your mind regarding how you choose to conduct yourself? Because, if you changed your mind, I can still go get boxes if that's what you're heading for?" It ended immediately. The cootie thing has died. Like I said, there have even been little flirts. It's almost weird.

Cat- I'm with you on that. I'm stubborn and I won't put up with too much more. I'm now not as stunned and shocked, so I am standing up and drawing lines in the sand.

InRecoveryNow- There's no mortgage. It's a rental, with both names. I am not fully prepared to seperate, and I don't know that I ever could be, but like everything else in life I will pull up my big girl panties and get through it if that is what is required.

What are you asking about never acknowledging my child's father with my child??? Kiddo knows Daddy. I'd never rip Daddy completely out of Kiddo's life. I don't think I have ever said that.

I hope I am not truly just laying it all at his feet, though I do believe he is the more broken one, I have endevoured not to allow a blame-focus. I can't see how I am laying it all at his feet to fix, as I have been working my [censored] off to better all that is within my changeable realm, but there is a point at which I can't fix it. The only person I can control is me, despite all my wishes otherwise LOL. What have I done to reduce and hopefully eliminate my part in all of this? Well, I have owned up to the reality that I did have issues with AO, and I have been working on my ability to meet his RC and PA needs. We BOTH allowed ourselves to stop dating, and seldom went out together before all of this, and have changed that since. To recover from this, I will continue to work toward being a better RC and thinning down to better meet PA, and I have already virtually eliminated AO's (even H agrees I have) Our former communication pattern was poorly conceived. H was always a laid-back person whom I perceived to dump all responsibilities on me, and H perceived me to be controlling and disliked my AO's. I have now begun to express myself better through "I statements." I have also put myself last in alot of things (wear my shoes out, one haircut a year, etc) and apparently this annoys H, so I have started to balance life better such that we all get some of the wants/needs met, depending upon what the financial resources are like when compared to everyones wants/needs.

I don't believe (or sure hope I am not) determining what he can feel, but I have asked that he not give rampant voice to negativity and that he try to give some airtime to the positives. With regard to household chores, I was merely reminding him that I am aware that by shirking all chores, he may be consciously or unconsciously manipulating me to nag him to help. He actually kind of agreed on that, that he perhaps in his "expecting" me to nag that he was thus engaging in behaviors that bring the nag out.

For me, hmmm... I have been with an IC, and she actually says that she feels I am ready to dismiss because I understand my own baggage and how to process my own demons when the begin to run amok. Her dismissal will free us up to see another Psychologist in her office who she holds as a highly regarded MC, and bill it under our insurance as a relationship based discorder. I also find great support and/or comfort here, and I go out for drinks with the gals on occasion and hope to re-invest myself in my own hobbies soon too.

Off to go read Lovings' stuff

MARRIAGE COACHING QUESTIONS

Umm, so I have been gifted an opportunity to send the bill elsewhere for some marital interventions, up to $600...

We are between MC's at the moment, as I fired our last one this past Friday. Our previous MC was out-of-pocket on a sliding scale, which still resulted in $300/mo in combined therapy costs. The new therapist will likely be going through our insurance, which will save us tremendously.

So... now I'm thinking, I/we could get 3 Marriage Coaching sessions with the Harley's. Three would be it, though, unless maybe thereafter we only got one a month, but I doubt we can do that. So, will 3 sessions with the Harleys really make a difference? Should we go Harleys and then our insurance-paid therapist? Should we jump into both at the same time (which seems like a bad idea because they could conflict)

Anyone try these sessions?

I'm leaning toward taking the 3 sessions of coaching, THEN starting with our new therapist. The upside to this is that it delays me stopping my IC by a few weeks, which might make H happiest if he's not the only one with an IC because I think he kinda feels like if my IC is dismissing me and yet we're putting him in with a new IC, perhaps he's "more messed up." I don't view it that way, but I can see how he could, because we all have our demons...

Thoughts?