I tend to disagree. Certainly the conditions are different, but I think they still exist.


Perhaps. But I am not trying to imply WS's go through some formal rigorous process. It is my opinion that thoughts, feelings, and behaviors are interrelated. I think feelings and thoughts are the flip side of the same coin. Ask a person why they felt some way and they usually tell you what they were thinking. Ask them why they think one way and they usually tell you what they were feeling. So while a WS may be being "led" by their feelings, their feelings are being influenced by their thoughts.

This sound like an optimization problem, somthing for Integer Programming: What is the best mistake to make, if you are determined to make a mistake... but wait, if one is determined to make a mistake, is it still a mistake?

Perhaps. Although I have my doubts.

The concept of UL reminds of the words of B.B. King

"Nobody loves me but my Momma. And she may be jivin' too."

I figured so. Saw you on UTube. You were letting air out of tires and egging random BS.

Or if mistakes are inevitable.

I don't think one sets out to make mistakes. However, in hind-sight, many of us learn the things we set out to do were in fact, mistakes we chose to make.

My mom was/is an alcoholic. She loved me, I think - best she could.

Comfortably Numb -

As the originator of this thread, which you have repeatedly demanded to know the purpose of, may I kindly suggest you read the very first post on it?

Do you really think that a suffering woman, wanting to know how to get thoughts of the OW out of her head, would be benefitted by this type of dicussion continuing on her thread?

If so, please explain why.

Your tone has come across as very rude to someone who was simply trying to protect a hurting BS from having this continue to erupt on her thread. As well as someone who was also determined to speak up on behalf of all the terrific FWS's who are being maligned and written off.

MB has always been a place of hope to me. It's hard to see so much doom and gloom being touted as fact.

Neak,

What it the world are you talking about? How can what I have written be misconstrued into hurting suffering women?

This topic has been done over and over. I wanted to know what you really wanted to do with this. Bash FWS? I can take that if that was the intention.

"Do you really think that a suffering woman, wanting to know how to get thoughts of the OW out of her head, would be benefitted by this type of dicussion continuing on her thread?"

So you started this tread to get this discussion off her own tread? Is that it?


"Your tone has come across as very rude to someone who was simply trying to protect a hurting BS from having this continue to erupt on her thread. As well as someone who was also determined to speak up on behalf of all the terrific FWS's who are being maligned and written off."

Who am I being rude to? I don't think I even posted to you. It seemed to me that a lot of this thread was dedicated to maligning FWS. That thay have moral character issues and will always be jerks. At least that was what I was getting from it.



What gloom and doom are you speaking of?

This is my reality. I made a selfish choice and hurt my marriage. It took a lot of time for me to understand the extent of what I did.

Our marriage is much better now after all these years have past. I respect my marriage and my wife probably a lot more because I almost lost them both. What gloom? What doom?

You said: "I did not marry a person of weak moral character. I don't believe that most BS's did."

I've pretty much said the same thing in different words. Perhaps I'm just a poor communicator.



I'm baffled.

I did not say that you, personally, were hurting a suffering woman or women.

I said that for this discussion, had it continued on Ashes' thread, would have been hurtful to her, (As well as distracting and unhelpful.)

So I moved it.

And if anyone could read what I have written on this thread, and come away with any thought that I am trying to bash any FWS, then I guess my verber skills are defective.

Doom and gloom? You don't think that a BS who came on here would be discouraged to read from so many posters, that their WS has always been defective, will always be defective, with the implication that it's not worth the bother of recovery? (Not to mention the self-deception of those who think they are somehow innately a better person than a WS or even a FWS, simply because they haven't had an A. But I guess that's a whole nuther subject.)

I will fight on the side of hope for as long as there is blood in my fingers.

"Doom and gloom? You don't think that a BS who came on here would be discouraged to read from so many posters, that their WS has always been defective, will always be defective, with the implication that it's not worth the bother of recovery? (Not to mention the self-deception of those who think they are somehow innately a better person than a WS or even a FWS, simply because they haven't had an A. But I guess that's a whole nuther subject.)"

Well yes I would think a BS could get that impression from this tread. It seemed to me that you were calling me out for bringing the gloom and doom. It is my position that FWS are just people. They are imperfect and have a history of making bad decisions(at least to what is the best interest of their marriage.) They aren't necessarily evil.

I didn't have an affair to hurt my wife. I did it for my selfish reasons. And I fail to see how that position is all gloomy.

edited to add . . . I don't see much difference in our positions. Am I missing something?


Finally, my question for the intention of thread was retorical. I didn't mean to make it sound like I was questioning you personally. But I certainly see now how you read that into my words and I'm sorry for that.

I see we cross-posted.

Yes, I see that you're happily recovered, which is why I didn't understand why you were disagreeing with me in sticking up for FWS's...

No, I wasn't disagreeing with you personally. I was disagreeing with some of the post that said FWS are morally damaged and will always be so. Because if that is the case, all BS should instantly divorce. And if that is the case I owe it to my wife to divorce her. I care for her too much to see her strapped to a forever damaged moral cripple. If I am that I need to get out of my kid's lives as well.

I think that there is hope that people can change if their motivation is great enough.

No offence meant Neak.

Cross-posted again, lol.

You were not the 'doom and gloom' yourself...I didn't understand why you objected to my motives in moving a discussion so I could attempt to counter such depressing opinions.

S'all good!

My husband has been a jerk from our wedding night on, with a few exceptions totally perhaps one month's worth of time. He can change. I can't change him. That's the choice he has to make, starting with being honest with himself and taking responsibility for his actions.

As I read your posts, Comfortably Numb, it appears to me that you have been honest and taken responsibility for your choices. My husband has not.

Cherished

Send your husband here and I'll give him a little talkin' to.

Of course I took responsibility for my actions. I did it.

Frankly I'm always amazed that any BS would want to rebuild a marriage after adultery. There are some fine people here. I guess that is why I keep coming back.

Well, my husband just called and said he wasn't coming home tonight. He ruined our oldest daughter's First Communion (in the midst of his affair at the time and just a week prior to D-day -- I'd already told the woman's husband what I knew), and now he's on track to ruin our youngest daugther's.

At some point, you just think the effort that you put into trying to rebuild a marriage like this isn't worth the cost because the likelihood of success approaches zero.

Being honest is the first step to rebuilding a marriage, and you are being honest. Adultery is built on deceipt.

I'm disgusted.

Cherished

Hugs, Cherished.

Ultimately, this is going to come down to: what are you willing to tolerate?

If I were you, I think I would Plan B him until he is seriously ready to work on the M with you. Plan B would protect you from the worst of his damaging actions, since he won't protect you himself.

CN, I getcha. You know, when I told AJ about this thread last night he nearly fell over. We had such a nice talk, not that we don't always lol, of how proud I am of him for standing up again after he fell so hugely.

I am SO GLAD to be recovered with my DH, and he's even gladder to be recovered with me. We had a fairly good marriage before, and now it's great and getting even better.

***Their moral philosophy was situational rather than virtue or duty based.

I think you have 100% hit the nail on the head with this. My XWH was exactly like somebody proud of the fact that he never stole money - until he started working in a bank and for the first time had the *opportunity* to steal money. Then he never thought twice about it.

In XWH's case, he started working for a very large corporation which provides all employess with absolute secrecy from spouses (their email, meetings, outings, business trips, company newsletters and especially corporate dinners and celebrations are all completely inaccessible to "outsiders" - including spouses.)

All this secrecy, combined with a company full of cheap ho-bag girls who were more than happy to date a married man who could provide them with a promotions, parties and President's Plates, was just waaayy too much temptation for him (and most of them) to put up healthy boundaries against.

So they didn't bother.

The place is full of crazy spouses and broken families. But that's just a coincidence. They have no idea why it's like that.

I don't think I'll ever get past knowing that the very, very good man I *thought* he was for many years instantly chose to walk out and divorce me once he finally realized I would NEVER play second fiddle to some corporate wh*re.

Character? What character? This was a case of situational morals, pure and simple. And I was too dumb/naive to realize that's how he was until way too late.
Mulan

***Yes...remember, the WS ALWAYS had the option, ALL ALONG THE WAY, of coming to his/her BS and saying something like:

***"Look, we have some problems in our marriage that need to be addressed...I find myself developing attractive "feelings" toward (OP) and I don't want to GO THERE. We need to talk!"

***Most WSs don't bother to do this out of a sense of selfish and immoral self-entitlement.

I also think that many folks Really and Truly Believe that if your spouse ain't givin' you what you want, you have the right to look elsewhere for it.

It's kind of an unwritten rule that many folks do subscribe to. Of course it's dead wrong, but you will find many who honestly do believe that and it's usually due to the way they were brought up (very poorly).

And for some, who have grown up believing in this unspoken rule that "every knows about", they may well sabotage things so that their spouse will react with anger / grief / despair. Then, of course, said spouse is REALLY no longer giving them what they want, so they're even more entitled to look elsewhere.

Works really, really well. Anyone seen this?
Mulan

Cherished, you seem to feel that you have the choice of staying with your husband or not for as long as you deem it necessary.

I often wonder what you would do if HE made that choice for you and just walked out one day.

Are you so sure he will not?
Mulan