Thank you for mentioning it, V.

Oh my!

It is. But I've brought this on so don't I deserve it? I've come to accept this even though it bothers me.

L4:

Why does your H have passwords to accounts that affect the two of you that you do not have access too?

I can understand, somewhat, if he is protecting himself from the WW running up the bills, or taking the cash.

But this has been going on for more that 2 years. You want a state of intimacy? You need access to those accounts that jointly affect you. "What's H's is his and he wants to keep it that way." that's the MB recipe for disaster....

What does HE have to hide?

Start Rant:
Chris Evert and Greg Norman are two wayward people in an affairage. Chris will move on when someone is worth $500m shows up, and Greg will be wondering what happened. Chris finds it cute that he paid $110 million to be with her. In my new MB POV, that SI article was justification for worst that affairs have to offer. "everybody's getting along" and "Moved ON, except for the former Mrs Norman." Puke.

Rant over.

Did you get to enjoy some ice cream cake?

Happy belated birthday!

LG

Yes. Secret since my confession.

He said he doesn't trust me any more. I told him I would never sabbotage his work, Costco means nothing to me, we share the bank accounts (that I know of), and these passwords are the same ones he showed me how to access a couple of years ago. I asked him why he is so protective of them now. He said he trusted me 120% a couple of years ago. Now he trusts me only 5%.

He said his email he especially wants to keep private. I pointed out that up until last summer we shared an email account. He shot back that it was me who wanted to change that because he keeps 4,000 messages in the inbox and that drives me crazy. (True.) Then he added that he doesn't want me reading the emails between he and the BW. I asked why. He said they're none of my business, and because he told the BW that I did not have access to the account. He doesn't want to violate her trust in what she shared with him. I asked, "What could she have shared with you that I don't already know?" I stated that I don't want to have secrets between us -- that BW couldn't say anything about me that I don't already know or feel about myself or expect her to say. He said they're done corresponding anyway -- that she's moved on and doesn't want to deal with us any more. I said, "Then why does it matter what she wrote 5 months ago when she doesn't want anything to do with you/us anyway?" I feel it's odd that H feels compelled to protect BW's correspondence more than sharing his Amazon.com or Ticketmaster.com password with me. Of course I've promised to not access his email accounts since that's what he wants, but of course he doesn't believe what I say.

For those who may suspect, I know H is not having any kind of R with the BW. They emailed back and forth to corroborate stories back in October and November and H recently emailed her to ensure that FOM has no relationship with the company I'm doing contract work for. But that's all. H doesn't lie. What little I know of BW and based on the couple of emails that have been shared, she and H are not engaged in any kind of R.

I asked if he's talking with lawyers or has secret bank accounts or other things and that's also why he wants to keep his emails private. He said no (and I believe him), but he said, if he chose to do those things, that's his business not mine.

He wants to keep his stuff his stuff. What can I do about it? I try not to let it bother me. But it does to think that I've lost so much with him that even in a case of an emergency, he doesn't want me to know these things about him.

Good morning, L4.

What I was trying to say, though maybe not the way I should have gone about it, is that whatever your husband's motivation for doing what he is doing you have a goal and a plan to achieve that goal that you need to focus on.

Speaking as a BS here, it was when I struggled with wondering what my wife wanted me to do that I got sidetracked and ended up hanging from a tree someplace. By having a plan, figuring out what I could do that was the right thing for the marriage and for the relationship and staying fixed on that I was able to apply MB methods to my problem and accomplish something rather than sit worrying about what she might do next.

You might do the wrong thing and he will bail on you and you will be alone.

OTOH, you might do everything right and he will bail on you and you will be alone.

Would you feel better if he left because you messed up or for a reason that was out of your control?

When your half of the relationship is the best it is going to be and there is nothing more that you can fix that is under your control, you have done all that you can and only what he does will matter. Until that point is reached you still have things YOU can do that are under YOUR control.

And what is so hard to focus on when it feels like your whole world is falling apart, is that if you do your part he will respond to what you are doing. Your best chance to survive this is for him to be in love with you and you with him. You can't change what he does as far as meeting your ENs but you can do what you need to do in order to meet his. And if you meet his ENs and avoid Love Busters, his Love Bank will fill up and he will be in love with you.

It might not stop him from leaving, but doing these things gives you the best chance of keeping him.

Mark

I have access to our joint bank accounts. All of our family financial accounts that I know of I can get to -- kids' college funds, life insurance, financial planning documents, etc.

Of course! I had to buy it, but I got it nonetheless. The day began with breakfast in bed. Then church with kids and my parents (H had to prepare for company, he said, so he stayed home), a great afternoon dinner with family including my parents, younger Sis and her partner, lots of visiting, a family movie night, then I had some work I had to finish up. It was a nice day. H did a lot of work for it and that was very nice of him. I told him how grateful I was.

Something that bothered me though... I didn't see H smile one time toward me throughout the day. I heard him laugh when he was outside playing with DS8, and he smiled when DD5 snuggled up into him on the couch, but he had no meaningful smiles for me. And every touch I had to initiate. Last night I asked for birthday SF and he turned me down. Said he was too tired. I said goodnight and had to do a few more things. (It was 9:40pm). Ten minutes later he had come downstairs and I heard him playing his guitar. Just for about 10 minutes, but it made me kind of sad.

Thank you.

Ah, geez... I have to change the age in my sig line. Ugh.

Happy Birthday L4.

Well you know my comp screen anyway! .... I tend to look out for pals, it's the maternal side of me coming out.

Ever thought of a career in politics L4 ???

I have to disagree with your thinking on this. It's not okay to keep these passwords secret b/c you deserve it.
Transparency must works both ways. Neither party should have a secret life, and this is what this is.
I'm with you on wondering why H would be protective of OMBW??? This is a red flag though.

The thought that I deleted earlier was this .... if a BS posted about secret passwords, they would be encouraged to snoop.???? This is another great big red flag.
No one is immune to being blindsided.

I totally get where you are sitting in all of this, I think it needs to be addressed, but to be honest I'm putting myself in your shoes and I'm losing perspective.

If you were just another poster on 'Just Found out', you would be advised to snoop. There are more variables for H and OMBW to have an inappropriate relationship, than there are not. That's my opinion.

When? When he does things for me, it feels like he's going through the motions. He seems distant much of the time.

Promise?

I get this.

Here's my "but" that I need help with, Mark. But what if in the meantime, I am so tired and empty because I haven't had my L$ filled in so long? Or because most every time I've applied POJA I don't get what I've respectfully requested? Some days I feel like I'm running on fumes. I'm running cowgirl boots and all, but some days it's so hard. So very hard to have my love unrequited. I am a very passionate woman.

I know the marker we're going by is the date of D-day, but I haven't felt loved in the way I want for many moons... The best time for us in the last several years was the first few months after D-day. As horrific as that time was, that is the closest and most in love I've felt for H in so long. We talked and talked and shared and comforted and checked in with one-another and made love and did things together. And it's fading. For many I see here on MB, recovery gets better as the couples work to get closer and fall back in love again. We seem to be just going along.

I can't say this is truly what's happening, but many days it feels like it.

H generally keeps his distance, doesn't talk much to me except when he complains about work, does his thing (work, guitar, motorcycle) -- much like the old days. After a while I get tired of playing the Stepford wife -- smiling and following and cooking and doing and cleaning so some days I'm not going 100%. I have a bad day. When this happens he senses I'm tired. That's when he becomes more attentive for an afternoon or a day. Sometimes it feels genuine, but sometimes feels strained. He does it then I feel good again so I'm back on task and in a good mood and then guess what... H pulls away again.

It's almost like he knows because I'm trying to win him back, I won't really push against him. I'm not standing up like I used to last summer (when I believed I might leave H), and instead don't want to rock the boat, you know? I think he likes this -- feeling in control. SF has dropped dramatically and when we do it's sex, not much love making. His IBs are back, though not as horrible as they were. He answers me in single sentences. He doesn't look at me much. I feel like we're drifting back to as before.

Today is the 1 year mark of when I was physically with FOM. I know H knows the date and I'm being especially sensitive. I'm giving him lots of leeway yet paying attention. This morning he woke and came to my office door. I got up and gave him a big hug. I asked how he slept, what he's doing up, told him what I was working on... I said that he seems quiet and asked if he wants to share anything with me. He said, "Same as I told you last night. Work... Mortgage..." That was it. Then he said, "I don't want to slow you down," then left my office.

We're at the infamous 6-month post-D-day mark. And it's the <gag> "anniversary". I'm trying to keep everything in proper context.

My question is... If it feels like we're backslidding and H won't agree to MC or any therapy (and I feel like I can't ask for it any more), what should I be looking for to tell me it's going to get better or be better? What signs might there be to show me if H is healing at all?

I know you keep saying H still being here is a good thing. And I am not discounting that. But because I know how he feels about being together even if just for the kids, I find myself sometimes being a bit suspicious of his motives. I throw those thoughts out, but they creep back in.

I know I owe H time. In fact I owe him so much. But there's that part of me that doesn't want to take so much time that I grow to not like him. (Am I making any sense here?) I'm trying to express myself without sounding like a greedy, selfish person. Then again, perhaps I am. But I want advice, even if it comes in the form of a large, wooden object upside the head.

I'm applying the fake it 'till you make it philosophy, telling everyone we're doing fine. I'll keep with meeting his ENs that I think I know, avoiding LBs, and practicing RH because it's the right thing to do. I agree with you on that Mark, and will continue doing so.

But deep down I'm worried. Really worried that I'm going to end up saving a loveless M. And that scares the ba-jeebaz out of me.

Anyway...

Back to work and back to meeting H's ENs...

L4, I thought the one thing that made this whole thing somehow bearable for BSs and WSs was the new, stronger M that rises from the ashes. One where both partners respect one another as equals. I've heard that over and over from others. If your H isn't meeting your need for O&H, if you two are not both commited to complete and total transparency, isn't that creating the same environment where an affair was possible to begin with? IMHO this transparency is an essential part of the EPs going forward.

I can't imagine what could possibly take precedence over making a total and complete recovery together. It boggles my mind how over and over I read on these boards about how folks after having successfully made it through this trial by fire will decide that it's STILL somehow okay for one spouse to gain at the other's expense. I don't understand how folks would be willing to go through all this for a marriage that isn't given the care it needs to last for a lifetime. Are you two getting outside support in your recovery plan and efforts? Like coaching with the Harleys? This seems like a total no-brainer that could be cleared up immediately.

L4, I posted before I saw your response. How about calling the Harleys, just you? It just takes one of you to get started. It sounds like you aren't being O&H about the IBs. Would you be willing to print out what you've shared from your heart here with us, and share it wiht your H? If I've learned one thing here, is that it takes two to make a miserable marriage. Your H has stayed through a difficult time. Are you willing to step out in faith and try to respect your H to see him as someone on the same page with you, someone who wants a love *with you* that will last a lifetime. More than he wants some illusion of temporary control today.

There were some special folks here on the site and IRL who gave me support and encouragement and trusted me and had more confidence in me than I did myself. With that support, I was willing to try new actions. To be O&H, even when I was scared of the response. To ask for what I wanted instead of DJing my H that he just wanted some flimsy momentary control. It's a scary thing, but so worth it!

As you may have seen, H won't do any therapy in any form that I know, other than reading The Bible. I don't know what he's reading in there, but that's the only thing I've seen. He refuses MC, IC, MB, books, blogs, pastor time...

I have met with Steve. A few months back. It was money VERY well spent. He was great. My H didn't like the idea of me doing so because of the cost, but I came into some money from my older sister and used that so H couldn't object.

I'd like to meet with Steve again, but H is being pretty tight about money right now. I will have to use POJA to do it and I'm skeptical I'll succeed. But I can try. In the meantime, I have made an appointment to see my IC whom I haven't met with in about 2 months. With insurance, I get a few more sessions with him for minimal cost.

But Steve and many here have said I can't work on our M or ask H too until he has healed from my cheating. I don't broach these things or my needs (ENs, POJA, etc.) because I thought I'm not supposed to yet. Which is why I was asking for what I should be looking for to determine if H is healing at all. Any hints I might see to be able to gage where he is since he won't tell me. Until I know, I'm on hold, not pursuing any other agenda until H is healed.

Thank you for your feedback, ears_open. I really appreciate your time here.

The last office I held was Junior Class President.

I cannot snoop. That would be a HUGE LB. The one time I looked at his email, I admitted it immediately and felt horrible about it because I know how he feels about it. H still holds that against me. So snooping would be a HUGE no-no. If I got caught, that 5% trust he currently has would be obliterated to -75%. I would feel too dishonest.

I'm in slippers right now. Quite comfortable.

Don't doubt yourself. Your perspective is yours. And that's what I need from you.

And it's always welcome, V. Danke.

Not much time right now but can't let this pass...

I request something. My wife is not in agreement. How do I get her to give me what I want?

Answer: WRONG QUESTION!

The ANSWER is to find the solution that BOTH agree to enthusiastically. It means you might never get what you first requested but you will get what you want because to fulfill POJA you must both want it.

POJA almost never works in a tit-for-tat manner. Seldom can you enthusiastically agree to take turns being selfish and each getting your own way part of the time.

This is a recipe for disaster in the long run because whoever does not get their way becomes resentful even if they agreed to allow the selfishness by the other at the time. This is WHY Dr H has POJA at all. It keeps our Giver under control so we don't give away the farm when we're in a state of Intimacy.

POJA is not a way to negotiate until we get what we want. It is intended to allow us to negotiate until we find a solution to which we can both agree enthusiastically.

Note: It might mean I let my wife have her way with no expectation of anything in return at all but cannot be a trade of I get to be selfish because I let her be selfish (the expectation gap again). So I have to find an answer that is "YES and AMEN!" instead of "Whatever..."


Back to work...

Mark

I understand this, Mark. I re-read about POJA in Love Busters again just this weekend. But if H doesn't understand POJA, if he doesn't want to practice all of the stuff about the guidelines, brainstorming, and testing. If, for example, I point out that he's giving a DJ and it only makes him upset instead of understanding...

I've accepted that when H says no to something that I bring to the table -- not demanding something, but requesting something in an appropriate manner such as "How would you feel if I did this..." That when H says no, that's it.

You state, Mark: "POJA is not a way to negotiate until we get what we want. It is intended to allow us to negotiate until we find a solution to which we can both agree enthusiastically." He's not allowing negotiation really at all.

So what are your options?

Full Article Here

I understand, Mark. I've been really studying POJA a lot as it's one of our biggest problems in my opinion. Well... Actually several of the Love Busters are. I'm studying because I want to get this right and do this right.

Riddle me this...

If H doesn't follow MB and I'm not supposed to educate him about it as per everyone here... How to WE apply POJA?

I'm not trying to be difficult or stubborn here, it's just this is something where I feel I'm making little to no headway, and I'm not comfortable pushing it because we're still in the Trying-To-Heal-H phase, not the Working-On-Our Marriage phase.

Let me break this down, using just the two paragraphs you supplied here.

1.) "If you reach an impasse where you do not seem to be getting anywhere, or if one of you is starting to make demands, show disrespect, or become angry, stop negotiating and come back to the issue later."
I'm better at stopping the negotiation, but when I come back to it, the defensiveness and disrespect seems to return quickly. Just thinking of the last few "negotiations" that we've had, I feel they end with little hope of them being returned to. If we do go back to one, it's usually met with, "I thought we already decided on that."

2.) "Just because you can't resolve a problem at a particular point in time doesn't mean you can't find an intelligent solution in the future."
Agreed. But future seems to not present itself. Later is later and later and later or it's, "I said no." Done deal.

3.) "Don't let an impasse prevent you from giving yourself a chance to think about the issue. Let it incubate for a while, and you'll be amazed what your mind can do."
I'm willing to incubate and think. I can be a pretty creative person and I believe I'm better at stepping back to see things from his place. It's been eye-opening and good for me to do this. The "but" here is that I don't see H doing the same.

4.) "If your negotiation turns sour, and one of you succumbs to the temptation of the Taker with demands, disrespect or anger, end the discussion by changing the subject to something more pleasant."
I usually end up saying that I'm flooding (a term we both know from our brief MC days), and calmly say that I need to leave but will be back. H tends to have an AO, throw DJs, or storm away -- with me not sure if he intends to come back.

5.) "After a brief pause, your spouse may apologize..."
VERY rarely does he apologize. And when/if he does, it's often followed with a "but"... He doesn't see how ineffective and disheartening this is. As I've mentioned before, we spent a hunk of time in MC trying to help H see how hard this is for the one hoping to receive an apology but H didn't get it.

6.) "...and wish to return to the subject that was so upsetting."
It's me who most often asks to return to unresolved topics.

7.) "But don't go back into the minefield until it has been swept clear of mines. The mines, of course, are demands, disrespect and anger..."
H doesn't seem to understand when I identify to him -- repeatedly -- how his demands and disrespect manifest during our discussions and how they affect me. How can these things be swept clean when H can't even see them? I'm sure I do things too.

8.) ...and you must discuss how to avoid them before you return to the issue. You can't negotiate if your Takers' destructive instincts control your discussion."
See #7. I have asked H probably hundreds of times not to take on certain behviors when we talk. And yet he does so. Again. And again. And again. I'm sure I'm not following perfect behavior for him either. I am trying hard to incorporate and do things that he's requested of me such as: letting him finish talking; apologizing first instead of explaining my way toward a weak apology; watching my body language so I don't give off contempt; and sticking with the particular issue at hand and not bringing in other topics or situations from 2 weeks or 2 years ago.

I know I am NOT the expert here and I have much more to learn. Which is why I am here asking all the questions. (Like the obnoxious little girl always tugging on the adult's jacket.) How do I get H to apply the POJA principals when he doesn't speak the language and he expresses no desire to learn it?

I think you have tremendous tenacity L4.

I wish I had something to offer on this one.

All I have is and