One more question.

Does H have any idea that you are wearing thin, or have you put a pretty good face on?

(I'm not too organized today!)

L4, I think your H doesn’t have a full bank for your sister right now, so maybe you want to be honest with her, that you aren’t able to reciprocate for the babysitting she’s providing right now. So if that means that she doesn’t want to sit for you for the time being, that you’ll understand, and find alternate arrangements. I’ve made big repeated LB$ withdrawals for my H over the years by trying to pretend we were all one big happy family, too.

How would you feel about reconnecting through RC?

And I don’t know about timing, but I wasn’t asking you to start making demands or request that a plan to meet all your needs be put in place today, but rather to share from your heart more. “How would you feel about going on a bike ride?” Or like you did, “I’m busy this morning, but I’d like to drop that off this afternoon.”

Hello L4,

This is my very first post after lurking for a few months. I have been following your thread with interest and am sorry for how hard this is on you. I have developed great respect for how you handle yourself.

This may be an exaggerration, but it seems to me that a number of difficult moments with your H seem to involve your sister. When I read the most recent recount, the minute you said it involved a party for sis I was, like, "1-2-3..." waiting for the penny to drop.

From your desciptions of his reactions time after time, H has a problem with her, for whatever reason and you are probably setting yourself up for disappointment by continiung to make requests that involve doing nice things for her, or even defending her, that bring her into the dynamic of your relationship in any way.

It sucks, frankly. But it may be the reality of the situation and, given the other pressures you are feeling right now, perhaps you would be cutting your losses to just avoid bringing her up in conversation with him at all?

Just a (very) arms-length assessment.

All the best.

When will he begin to reciprocate?

When his LB$ has enough in it that he wants to give to you to make you happy.

An affair doesn't just drain the LB$, it shoots it full of holes. Anything put into it leaks out almost as fast as you can fill it and any Love Buster of any kind just dries it right up. It will take some healing on his part before you can make much headway and, yeah, I know he isn't doing anything to speed that process along.

But something else to consider here is that one thing that is NOT going to fill his LB$ and that is working on long standing issues in order to try to get him to fix his side of the relationship.

Do you know Dave Ramsey, financial guru and Christian financial counselor? Dave has a method for eliminating debt that I really like and with a bit of prosaic (don't look too deep into the definition of that word, please) license I think I can apply the concept to recovery...

Many people when they get into debt have this idea that what they should do is to pay off the debt with the highest interest first and then go on to the one with the next highest interest etc because in the long run that is what will save you the most money. The problem with this strategy is that seldom can you make much headway on the most expensive debt because it usually has the highest base payment amount and it is about all you can do to scrape together enough to keep current.

What Dave suggests is that you list all of your unsecured debts on a piece of paper in order from smallest to largest, not based on interest but simply the amount that is owed. Then you pay whatever extra you can on the smallest until it is paid off. Then you apply that payment amount to the second lowest until it is gone as well and move up the list until you are out of debt.

So if you owe J C Penney 150 dollars and GMAC 45K, you pay JCP off by adding 5 or 10 bucks every month to th payment and in only a few months you have paid it off. If the minimum payment was 15 and you added 10 that now gives you 25 extra to pay to Sears which now might be paid off in another 6 months or less because the extra 25 might be double the minimum payment. You now free up 50 to add to the Visa bill and before long you are making an extra 500 dollar payment on you SUV every month and in just a couple of years you are making double payments on your house and in 15 you are debt free and owe nobody anything at all.

So how do we turn making payments into recovery?

I mentioned a couple of days ago that you will not make great progress if you keep working on the hardest problems, the biggest problems as your first priority. This is because both of your Love Banks will be depleted very quickly by the hard work and soul searching that it requires. This is why in cases of long term physical and severe emotional abuse you simply cannot work on recovery because the abuse is as big or even a bigger issue that must be resolved in order for the abused to feel safe enough to stay to work on the relationship.

The same applies to drug or alcohol addiction. MB doesn't work in these cases because the addiction is a bigger problem that makes application of MB impossible and so until those kinds of things are fixed (they must be fixed by the one with the problem independent of the recovery process, BTW) recovery just can't take place.

But based entirely on what you have said here and on the way you described the honeymoon phase (wouldn't it be nice if it went like that from then on?) of recovery that closely followed your confession I would say that while your husband does have some problems with controlling behavior and those types of things that are really clearly emotional blackmail/abuse, I do not get the sense that you feel that you are in danger physically or that he sets about trying to make you feel worthless every morning when he rolls out of bed.

So what is the simplest of all his faults that you would like to address? What one step in recovery can you fix pretty easily and if everything else was already taken care of would be a piece of cake to handle? Work on THAT first. Then take on the next smallest problem and deal with it and so on until you can work on his refusal to give just to make you happy (which is really what we are talking about right now.)

Here is why this might work better...

You can't force him to POJA and truthfully and honestly and fairly negotiate. This is because his Love Bank is empty. LITTLE things will fill it up a little bit and make him more agreeable over all and more open to doing or agreeing to something (still something that is beneficial to him and his POV) that will make an even bigger deposit but might also make some deposits into your Love Bank as well.

This process will then give you enough hope and Love Units (strength and dollars) to make a push to work on the next problem until it is resolved. And the kick from that being solved will give you enough to work on the next and so on until you reach a point where you have enough capital to finance the really big problems of life.

Right now you do have a serious problem. His Love Bank is empty and so is yours. You still love him, but you're not "IN LOVE with him...(This sounds really scary doesn't it?) You can't pull off the perfect deposit that will suddenly make his Love Bank full and maxed out. You can't do this because there isn't anything that will do that. There is no shortcut to a full Love Bank and no shortcut to recovery either.

Little deposits made over time will start to pay off. But in order to get your own Love Bank recharged so that you can continue you need to get something in return. This will not be something big either.

You can't get him to commit to spending 15 hours per week together to fulfill UA time per the MB program. Can you get him to go with you for ice cream after dinner? Can you get him to take a walk with you one morning before the day begins? Would he sit and watch a movie with you before bed? You know him better than I do, L4. What can you get him to do that IS spending time together without the hoopla surrounding scheduling a weekend away?

Ramsey also talks about raising extra money to pay towards the debt load. He talks about garage sales, selling stuff on EBay, getting rid of huge cell phone bills and other ways to make a small dent in the mountain of debt we find ourselves in. Do you KNOW his top 5 ENs? Do you know YOUR top 5? Could taking a walk in silence (not dealing with a problem, just being together) and holding hands etc provide enough affection to get you through the day? How could you meet lesser ENs for each other more easily more consistently to raise the balance in both LB$ enough to keep you funded in your efforts?

As for the POJA problem, work out what to have for lunch one day using POJA.Use it o solve a simple problem and then apply it to something more difficult before trying to use if to fix the long standing issues of life together.

Back to work...

Mark

Ah, V... the million dollar question! I wish I knew the answer to this-- this has been the single most difficult thing I've had to figure out in the course of our R! My H does the same thing. He has all of my passwords, etc... but I have none of his. He is as secretive as L4's H. Constantly locks his work computer so I can't see it/use it, etc. Like L4 said, I don't think that my H is having an A. I've snooped (don't tell him that!) and haven't found anything. ALTHOUGH, my H DID have an RA, and I strongly suspect indiscretion in the past, before my A, although I have no proof, and he denies.

Anyways, I can't answer that for L4. L4 has to decide where her boundaries are. Yes, he SHOULD share with her, and not be secretive. That might be a long term goal of L4's, but something she can put aside for now (as I am doing). Or, it may be that L4 can't live like that, and finds it highly offensive and is crossing a boundary for her. But I can't tell L4 where those boundaries are. And boundaries can change. I know for now, while I don't "like" not having access to H's documents that he has of mine, I am dealing with it for now. Eventually that boundary may change. It is a difficult balance that a FWS has to make with a spouse that is not on board yet-- not allowing blatant disregard of themselves and blatant crossing of boundaries, but at the same time being understanding of the emotional situation of their spouse. It is probably the hardest thing I've ever had to do, honestly-- that balancing act.



I don't think now is the time to ask L4's H this question. Unless she's fully prepared to get an answer she probably doesn't want to hear, and would be OK with that. And I don't get the sense that she would be. I think that the topic of the future of the M has to either be brought up by Mr. L4 himself OR that L4 can bring it up herself only when she's prepared to walk away if Mr. L4 doesn't want to work in the M. Don't ask the question if you can't handle the answer. And I think right now he's going to feel cornered... and she's not going to get the answer she "wants". It ain't time yet.

That time will come when L4 is at PEACE. She's not at peace. When she can solidly see a HAPPY future EITHER WAY-- whether her H wants to stay and work, or walk away. It won't come in a time of emotional distress. She's distressed right now. Not the right time to throw gasoline on the fire.

JMHO,
E.

L4


Gosh, looks like you're being bombarded.

I had a very open and honest discussion with both H and sis about my relationship with them and how they may see each other because of my behaiour and words about each to each.

Sis is now on board and understands and J seems almost sympathetic to her plight

Can you apply any of sere's post to me to your story?
I guess you have done a bit of a job with demonisation to justify your A. Have you attempted to undo the demonisation with your sis? Are you able to explain this to your H? He must be aware that he isn't very friendly with you (and that you need an outlet) and if he's like j will have the constant paranoia that you're Sl*g*ing him off to sis.

lots more {{{{{{{{{{{L4}}}}}}}}}}}}

So I shouldn't feel so alone out here in left field .... thank you.
L4, I asked this for myself. I would not want to ever have you doubt the path your being given, by me not understanding and posting as such.
Slow but sure, I am learning along with you. I need more patience too sometimes.

L4, I hope yesterday got a bit more cheery for you. It's unbelievable how difficult this whole R thing is, isn't it, for all involved.
The only positive thing about feeling the low parts is that we wouldn't recognize the highs with out feeling the other.
We all know that you can get through this. You've showed the utmost perseverance and a longing to heal H and repair your M.
Always know that you can pat yourself on the back for doing your share that is required.

Mark ... your post on 'reciprocate', was helpful to me as well in understanding Mr. L4. Thank you for explaining it so well.

Recovery is like pushing a car...

When you first begin the journey you struggle at first to get things rolling. And then you are both pushing at the same time and it rolls along pretty easily for a while.

But THEN you come to that first hill. If either one stops pushing before the crest the car rolls backward. If you do this often enough it eventually runs over one of the people pushing and takes them out of the effort.

For much of early recovery only one person is doing the pushing and so you have to decide what hills can be climbed and when to attempt them. Your pushing partner will join you from time to time but usually only for short bursts and then will let you push alone. If you attempt too big of a hill to climb and find yourself pushing alone half way up the hill the car might roll back and crush you on the way by.

If you choose to climb the smaller hills first your partner will help a higher percentage of the climb and you stand a better chance of getting to the top. And when you get to the top you can both get in and ride down the other side.

But you also have to be ready to get out and start pushing again when the car begins to slow and before it comes to a stop because there is another hill coming and unless you maintain some inertia you will have to put out more effort than if you can keep things rolling along.

And as you get up each hill you will be getting stronger and building more strength so the pushing becomes harder due to the increased incline but your strength might be able to overcome a bit more of that resistance and still make it to the top.

The higher the hill the more you get to ride inside together with the only real effort being a bit of input to the steering to stay on course, but of course there is still that next hill and somebody has to start pushing to keep up momentum so the car doesn't stop, so even if it is only you that gets out and pushes, it has to be done because when neither of you are willing to push your trip is over and while you might both walk out, the car will remain right where it is.

For the really big hills you might have to call a wrecker to pull you along but for some a passerby might be able to lend a hand. They can help push at times. Sometimes they have already just climbed that hill and can give you encouragement and directions of how to avoid the potholes.

And some even have their car running again and can pull you along for short distances and so help you reach the top. But they can't pull you around forever and since they aren't really going to the same place you are they can't drag you to your destination and some hills might be so high that they have nothing extra and have to use all their energies to get themselves to the top. In those cases you are on your own again. Hopefully your partner has recovered enough energy by then to help you push, but if not you need to push by yourself until you collapse from exhaustion because as soon as neither of you is pushing, the trip is over.

Now eventually you arrive at that one hill, the one you knew was there and you avoided as long as you could. You can't climb that hill with only one of you pushing and even together you aren't going to be able to get the job done. The hill is just so big and the approach so steep that it will simply deny all your efforts.

This is when you call that wrecker; the professionals who do this stuff all the time and get the help you need to reach the crest of this last hill. This isn't the friends who helped push a few times or the ones on their own journey who gave you a short tow or maybe directions when you were lost and turned around the wrong way. This is that guy with the big green truck and all the right equipment to get things done. In fact, he is also the one who will help you get the car running again so you don't have to push it. Whatever his name whether it be Bob or Fred or Goober, he is the professional and you aren't going to have a running car at the end of the trip without his help.

The good news is that you get to pick what hill you climb and in what order. Eventually you will probably have to climb them all and while the temptation is to get the biggest over with first, you can't climb the bigger hills unless you are both pushing the car together and some might need that professional to make the climb.

So start with the smaller hills and look for the little successes that keep you moving and give you hope.

Mark

When you get time read this thread from early recovery: Little Victories

There was a time when I felt lost and alone too...

Thank you, Mark. And everyone. You have lifted me up. I will respond to each of you today as I can.

My heart is so warmed by your being here, taking time to talk to me.

Thank you.

In our case, I feel it's H who is backsliding, returning to habits and behaviors from before the brief MC we did last fall. And then I get depressed and want to return to my habits. So if he decides it's more important to be with his computer in his office or playing guitar, then fine. If he doesn't want to talk to me about what's on his mind, then fine. I won't either. How he tends to lash out at the kids... Little things like that that are creeping back. And a big thing for me, we aren't having sex. (I want it more then he does.) I'm trying to stop my behaviors when I'm tempted to return, and it's hard. I won't go back to the old way because that's what led to my straying -- I justified it. I'll end the marriage before I live long-term like that again.

And regarding the 6-month mark... Is my 6-month the same as my H's? It's been 6-months since D-day, yes, but it's been over 10 months since the A ended. I'm ahead of him timewise in my own recovery.

That's where this patience thing keeps coming up...

Thank you. I hope you stick around and keep posting, AM.

L4:

You DID get a little bombarded there. But we post, because we CARE.

Your sis is going to have to be off-limits for awhile.

Keep pushing the car.

Then you can involve the sister.

LG

Speak for yourself...



What he said.

E... My, E...

You could not have been any more perfect in describing how I feel right now. Thank you. I hope someday that I can be as articulate with my feelings as you are. Thank you so very much for being here.

This is exactly what I’m looking at right now. Exactly.

Though the comparisons are not equal, this is similar to how I am with my H. In order to be sensitive to him, I end up sacrificing my emotional state for him. I don’t share and most likely shouldn’t anyway. And in order to be sensitive to the BS's on MB, I don't share some of really hard stuff here either. I keep it all inside because as you said, I’m supposed to, “Suck it up, Buttercup,” since I brought it on myself. So I have no outlet, absolutely no outlet to feel sad for myself. And then I just implode -- like yesterday.

Just tell me that it will end and I’ll be okay. Even better, if you can promise that our M will be okay, too.

I do this often for H and for our M. I want him to be happy or at least not mad so I give in. And when I stand up for my opinion or I say no, sometimes the wrath follows. Easier just to go with the flow. It's strange to because as I’ve mentioned before, in every other relationship in my life, I have no problem standing up for myself and for others.

I'm hearing this and I'm getting this. But when I say no or disagree with H, he thinks I'm purposefully siding against him. When I don’t agree with him, it can’t be because I simply have a different opinion. That guilt that I can get for disagreeing about little things like what color to paint something to big things like spending big money on re-paving our driveway isn’t worth it. He's not always difficult. But when he's in a mood, he can make me feel like cr*p so quickly. I figure there are more important things in life then arguing over where to plant the flowers so I keep my mouth shut or after a while just nod in agreement.

I want the intimacy, E. I’m the one that drives this boat. H doesn’t have much interest lately.

Yes, I can.

It does.

Hi, kerala. Thank you for piping up.

From all the discussion here it probably looks like Sis is deeply engrained in our lives. This time of year it's my mom's birthday, my birthday, her birthday, baseball season for DS8 so there are games that family attends... And she is one of my best friends. But Sis doesn't drop in every day and we talk maybe once or twice a week. We do things together, but we do much less together then we did before D-day as both of us are senstive to how H feels about her. She has avoided us on purpose in the last months in order to give us space and to eliminate possible conflict between H and me.

My three mistakes we've focused on here have involved Sis in some way. But remember that her involvement has not been her doing. I'm the one who jumped in and spoke for her that time, I called Sis about the tickets, and her partner asked about hosting the party.

Leaving her out of conversations won't be difficult because over the majority of time, I have been. Though to give you an idea that there isn't huge animosity between H and Sis, first remember that he worked with her on my little b-day party last Sunday. And H walked into my office 5 minutes ago and said he just heard of two job fairs that Sis would probably be interested in attending. Would he do these things if he didn't care for her at least a little?

But yes... I'll avoid mentioning her when possible.

No physical danger. I feel worthless maybe once a week, unimportant most other days. But no, not worthless every day.

I understand this. It makes sense.

And BTW... I know I have faults too. Everyone here is getting only my side of the story. I have to be working on my faults that I'm aware of as well.

Scares me like you don't know. Last time I wasn't in love with him, I did horrible things. EP's are in place and I won't and can't do those things again. But I've been here before and the feeling is terrible. This is MY husband, for goodness sake!

I do.

I understand. Eventually, however, it will have to be more than what I'm getting now. Much more. I'll keep making deposits in his L$ in hopes the returns as I need them will eventually come.

I keep looking for these things, Mark. Because I've experienced how important UA is. After D-day, we spent hours together every day. When he'd leave for a night or two, we'd make up for lost time before and after. We snuggled on the couch, made love, went out a few times, had lunch together, talked and talked and talked... But he's not making the time now and when I think I've made it for us, he changes plans or makes like it's not important. Yesterday was so busy for me, but before dinner I snuggled up next to him on the couch where he was working on his laptop. He put his arm around me for 30 seconds, then removed it and went back to work. I asked if we could snuggle for just a few minutes and he couldn't/wouldn't.

Last night after the kids went to bed, I settled in front of the TV and waited for him. He came down and we watched TV together for an hour and that was nice. Then he picked up his computer, moved to the other couch away from me, and started working again. I asked if he could possibly not work tonight and he said no. I know he's so very busy with work, but I wish he could find more time for me in there. We have plans away from each other every night this week. (Church meeting, motorcycle classes, out-of-town friend staying with us over the weekend.) Last night was a freebie for us. I wish he would have felt it was worth taking advantage of and I was worth "taking advantage" of too.

No. I've asked him 3 times to take the ENQ. He has the form and refuses to do so. I THINK his top 5 in order are: Financial Support, Honesty and Openess, Attractive Spouse, Recreational Companionship, and Family Commitment.

Yes. In order: Affection, Conversation, Admiration, Family Commitment, Sexual Fulfillment.

See the disparity between the two lists?

Yes. If H liked holding hands more than a few minutes. He's almost always the first to let go. And has been throughout our 25 years of knowing each other. I know this was just an example you were providing, but it's an example I wanted to show where I want the hand holding H doesn't seem to care for it. I want the affection, he doesn't appear to need it.

1. FS - I've taken on more work to bring in more money and am watching my spending more. No big purchases (single items over $40 or so) without H's consent.
2. H&O - I am doing all that I can to be O&H, even when I know it will upset him.
3. AS - I'm lacking here because I've gained weight. I think I'm okay to look at, I'm wearing make-up more often, smile even when I don't feel like it, am groomed and hygenic, shave more often (TMI?), and have been asking for help in getting into shape.
4. RC - I think I do well here but H lately would rather do solo things. The weather has been bad but when it's nice and he has time, he jumps on the motorcycle. Maybe when the weather is better he'll want to do more with me. We like to camp and play catch.
5. FC - No need to improve what I was already doing. I spend a lot of time with the kids and we try to do things as a family a few times a week, even if just going to the park or playing Wii.

As for getting H to meet my ENs, other than meeting his and hoping he picks up on my signals and reciprocates, is there another way? I've asked him for kisses, I snuggle into him hoping for return squeezes, I talk with him hoping it will be a meaningful conversation. (When we talk, he sometimes does other things like looking at his computer or reading or watching TV. He talks a lot to me about his job -- its problems and how much he hates it. And I listen because I know it's important to him. But I'd like to talk about other things too.

I do have to give him props for the mornings. It's become our one thing where in the morning we will snuggle and spoon if even for just 30-seconds before we get going. And like today, it was for several minutes. The TV was on, but I accept that because I love when he's wrapped around me. I tell him how much I love and appreciate that time.

Will try.

This was a fantastic post, Mark. Thank you. The timing of it... I woke up yesterday morning thinking to myself that I'm spending all this time deciphering POJA and analyzing that one interaction with y'all when it shouldn't even be the focus. I thought, "Why am I wasting time on something that isn't even applicable at this stage? Put your energies elsewhere for now, L4. This is too advanced for where you and H are." Then I got all sad because I started thinking deeply about where H and I are and... Well... You know the rest.

Thanks again.

Hey there L4,

What do you call a pig that likes karate?


If you don't like it blame my DS9.

As Mark mentioned H's LB$ has lots of holes in it. I agree with LG that H just didn't want a party or sis at the house. Why he didn't just come out and say it? Probably the same reason we all think our spouses should get the hint or just know what we are thinking.

Or it could be that H is simply jealous of the attention you give others. You gave OM your attention, you give sis your attention, you give the children your attention...what about me? I know you've made the effort with H but you have to keep in mind those darn holes mess with a BS's brain. My H could have been great for 6 solid days picking me up and then he didn't on day 7 (because God forbid something or someone needed his attention)...I'd be right back to X, Y, or Z MUST be more important than me. I wanted him kissing my rear 24/7 whether I said it or not.

If H is feeling rotten, he may not want other people around. When I was feeling my worst, seeing others was a catch 22. I was happy to see other's enjoying themselves but the other half of my brain was saying...why do THEY get to be happy and I'm riding this damn rollercoaster from hell.

It could be sis, it could be that H feels the unfairness of life, or both. Whatever it is, he's not ready so don't push. He was going to say NO no matter what logical answer you had. Patience.

I skipped past you and V, ST. I didn't mean to. Sorry about that. Still catching up...

Please, ST. As I've stated many times, my thread is an equal opportunity thread. Everyone is welcome to post. And I am welcome to select what I read and what I choose to absorb. (Insert drum rimshot here.)

I do. I really believe I am one of luckiest posters on these boards, having the best people keeping me in line and helping me along. I thank God often for everyone of you.

Being here is enough, V. Your words mean much to me.

I think e_o (now NewEveryDay, I see -- I like it ) was suggesting it might be all right to tell H about how my heart is doing right now -- the things I wrote in my post 4/27 about how I'm scared that we're backsliding and stuff. I'm not ready to ask H about our future, for all the same reasons you and others have given.

I do too. Today is better. I don't know if it's because H sensed my sadness yesterday -- because that's when he seems to pay the most attention -- or if he's just having a good day and that's spilling over to me. But he's better. I hope it sticks.

"Patience" by G 'n R is my new theme song. Whenver I see this word on MB, I sing, "Need a little patience... yeaaahhhhhh. Just a little patience... yeaaahhhhhh".

Half tank. Have real problems sleeping.

Mostly a pretty face. Otherwise it's to the park, per se.