Trigger,
If I were you I would protect myself by consulting an attorney but I wouldn't abandon Plan A just yet - your WW is still in fog. I agree with previous post, you should tell your older DD the truth. Some Plan A's take six months or longer. Don't panic, stay calm so you can think clearly and stay focused.

GG

Ok, I'm trying to remain calm. Thanks for your comments...I knew this wasn't going to be easy, and I shouldn't expect things to happen overnight, I just got a little anxious being gone for 5 days thinking something MIGHT of changed...RIGHT, no luck.

I have talked to an attorney, but I haven't retained one yet. It just seems that if I do I'm throwing in the towel...and damn it, I'm not ready to give up yet!
The more I look at her list, the more I think she and her harpy turncoat girlfriend (yes, no anger here) have been Googling divorce questions. The verbiage is too exact and the questions are too pointed. She (and I for that matter!) are not familiar with divorce law. Obviously she is learning. Even so, I'll go back to looking for a good pitbull to turn to if this doesn't go well.

I didn't exactly tell the DD the whole story, I told her enough that she put it together herself. She doesn't know details, but she knows now one of the major factors in her parents "issues". I made a promise not to speak badly about my WW in front of the children. And I have not. All I did was bring the horse to water, she took the drink herself. I just don't think the 9 year old will understand, She is too innocent, I just can't bring myself to telling her details. Sorry.

gg615, thanks for reminding me that these wars take TIME. Like I stated before, I'm not a patient man, but I have to learn it now or risk screwing everything up worse than it already is.
Originally, when I was told by my WW that she was moving out, I fought to keep her in the house until the end of May, when the children were out of school and they could deal with it better. I also wanted her to stay for Plan A, as I thought the longer she stays, the more time I have to work on myself and work on our relationship. At this point, I don't know WHEN she will be moving out, as she wasn't prepared for the cost of an apartment and I found out that the OM is being heavily policed by his BS until he transfers or gets fired.
If she stays longer, good, more time to implement Plan A. Otherwise, it's Plan B if she leaves.

It's just so painful to be at home and to try to put on a happy face. All I really need is a crack in her ice, or one little bit of encouragement from her to keep trudging on...It's been just over a month but i don't feel I've made much progress. In fact, I wonder if I'm not taking a few steps BACKWARDS.

Never the less, I'm going to keep moving and stick to the plan. If anyone has some suggestions to help me break the ice, ie: somehow get something POSITIVE from her, I would really appreciate the ideas!

Bless you all for being so supportive! Reading these responses is better than anti-depressants (that I'm getting tomorrow!).

-TC

"I didn't exactly tell the DD the whole story, I told her enough that she put it together herself. She doesn't know details, but she knows now one of the major factors in her parents "issues". I made a promise not to speak badly about my WW in front of the children."

Exactly what did you say to DD?

Promise, what promise? Why would you promise to lie? Hiding the truth is lying by omission.

No details need to be given. You need to tell DD that WW is having an affair. WW and OM are dating.

All you have to tell your daughters - BOTH of them - is that Mom has decided to sleep with another man while she is married to you, and that this is not an ethical or moral thing to do.

You do this for 2 reasons. One so that she cannot trick them into thinking she's doing the right thing - they will know better and may even give her a hard time, i.e. help you save her from herself.

And two, girls almost ALWAYS turn out to do and believe exactly what their mothers do. Do you want your daughters to do the same thing to their lives when they grow up? They will, if you don't tell them the truth now.

That's because you haven't done enough to expose and make the A look as slimy and disgusting as it really is.

In other words, it does no good to Plan A if you aren't actively trying to stop the A. Starting with exposure.

TC,

Your kids

You told your oldest enough on what was going on. Leave it at that. With your younger one, I would keep it a very high level right now.


Your Plan right now

I get the sense that she wont talk to you at all when you are both home? What does she do? I can understand how difficult it is to stay positive or even get through the day. Hang in there. Take one day at a time.

Here is your best hope. That she stays as long as possible and you continue to implement Plan A.

Did she say what she wants? (now that her OM is pretty much not an option). As far taking step backwards....Why would you say that? I know this is very difficult but here is the truth. Your wife checked out of your marriage long time ago. The (affair) exposure only precipitated her decision to leave. You have two issues. Bad marriage and the affair. You are dealing with both using Plan A. That is the beauty of it.

About seeing an attorney

Look this is a personal decision. My view is different. Unless you suspect your spouse is indulging in activities that are detrimental to you/your kids, I have no reason to see an attorney. Plus you ARE fighting for your marriage. So how can you work on your marriage and also see a divorce attorney at the same time? I never saw one. I told my wife in no uncertain terms that I want to work on the marriage. That does not mean there were no rules or boundaries. It starts with you. She won’t do anything for you right now. But at a minimum she needs to maintain total NC which is looking very good in your case. So, why the hurry to see an attorney? Can it not wait?

How do I get through my day ?

I actually thought I could never wake up to see another day without my wife being right next to me. I am not kidding when I say I don’t think that way anymore. So what helped? Following Plan A to the T. Work on yourself. Work on improving your relationship with your DDs. It takes months. Not a month or two to even see the little changes. The changes are so subtle you won’t see anything for a long while. Time alone is however not enough. You need change of behavior and I am NOT saying it will work out fine for you. All I am saying is you MUST give your best shot. Best attempt to get through this for your sake and your daughters sake. There are no easy answers. What are your hobbies? What can you do? I like music, I compiled a list of my favorite songs (70s rocknroll). Listened to them over and over. I compiled an album of pictures of my son from his birth to present day... (Printed pictures). I then left them in my wife’s car as a total surprise. You have two DDs that you can focus on. What more do you need?

Despite all the best efforts, she could still leave. Be prepared for that. However, she is not your enemy (that POSOM is!). She is your wife. She needs your help right now because she is "broken".

By the way, I would advise you not to leave your home anymore. Yeah, she might say she needs space and what not to think about this. The answer is NO. You are not leaving even for few days. I really wish you had left your DD9 with her when you were gone as opposed to leave her alone by herself.

Also there will be tendency to overreact in these tough times. For example, I thought my wife contacted OM when she did not (the key logger was not conclusive even then I overreacted) and I felt really bad later on. So watch yourself there. You will have PLENTY of triggers. Plenty of sinking-heart feelings. How you cope with them is important.

Are you spending time with your wife?

Several questions. Are you sleeping together? Are you talking with each other on daily basis? Can you schedule time to talk? Do you have any plans for Mother’s day? Can you plan a family event? Can you and your wife watch a movie together? Can you both be honest and open with each other? – No matter how hurtful it is. This is SO important. Now that the affair is in the open, why don’t you both start with a clean slate? OPEN and HONEST communication going forward.

It was awkward and hurtful for both of us. But looking back, that was the best thing we did. For us. Plus in my opinion that is the only way you can heal/move forward.

Thank you for your responses!

TR,


I explained to her that her Mother was not happy with me, and that the printed text messages she found (my WW had tossed them on the kitchen table after she called me out about being able to get entire text conversations. I had only printed a couple of pages) had a lot to do with it. My DD then asked me, so she is involved with "OM"?!
She's pretty wise for 15. I didn't have to say anything else.

Still have a problem telling the 9 year old this, although she and the 15 year old have been talking. If she asks, I'll tell her.

Catperson,


we have discussed this, although not in context to my problem with their mother. I agree that I didn't think about this angle, so I will bring it up to them (or at the the 15 year old) tomorrow.


Actually, this does scare me. I will consider your advice on how I can prevent this from happening.

Thank you.

optin1.

Thank you. I've read your response over and over today several times before I could even think of replying. I have drawn great strength from it.

Thank you.


The oldest knows what is going on. She didn't need me to detail it out, she put it together. She has already indicated her extreme displeasure with her mother. The little one follows suit with her big sister. I haven't ruled out telling her, but not yet.


Conversation is Yes and No, sometmes small responses, but I must initiate them. We did have dinner out the other evening, and her conversation was aimed at the children, not me. I was "just there". I will admit, she did call me today driving home from work, something she used to do everyday before things went south. Short conversation, but pleasant. Kind of like a courtesy call. Conversation at dinner was small, and mostly centered around the children, but she seemed to tolerate me.

I agree that this is going to be one day at a time.
My doctor fixed me up with some anti-depressants today so maybe that will help a little. I still am unsure how long she plans to stay, end of May was our last conversation. I'll work that question into a conversation when I can.


Yes. I finally heard what she said, and understand a little of what she wants. Without pulling out the book and grilling her with questions, I was able to figure out her 5 EN's. Tey are on an index card that I carry in my pocket, to remind me constantly what I need to do.

Backwards? Easy, it was a BAD weekend (well, Sunday anyway). It was a letdown day, and it felt that I was going nowhere. Today was better due to the fact we talked more today than yesterday. Still distant, but small talk. I also learned from the OM's BS that she had him call her (my WW) and tell her it was over, and not to contact him. I am waiting to hear about his transfer or relocation.

Checked out? Yep. About 6 months ago as far as I can tell.
You hit the nail on the head about her decision to leave after I found out. I am chugging along with Plan A...I just hope I can hold out to see it through...


I am in TOTAL AGREEMENT. I plan to drag my heals here. Even if she files, I won't sign...not until I know there is absolutely no hope. (and I am still hopeful!)


You are right. It was out of self-pity that I would say that. I have a ton of projects around the house/yard that for one reason or other, haven't gotten done. I have started scheduling them in every weekend. This puts me home, with her (as long as she doesn't leave), addresses some of the "issues" we had, and gets my (our) house in order.

I have started setting up "dates" with the girls. A movie, shopping, the museum, etc. My hope is that if I keep it open, and keep it "no pressure", she might join us.

One of the things my WW enjoy together is music. I did acquire quite a bit of digital music recently that I could move to the music server so she could listen to it. She plays music throughout the house EVERYDAY. She has commented that installing the speakers was the best gift I ever gave her.
I'll put that on the top of my list.


Yeah, I know. I'm better today then let's say, a week ago.
I just treat it like Plan B, as she HAS to deal with me over the children.


This was unavoidable. She was actually supposed to go with us before this all blow-up. I was committed in a ceremony, as were my children, so I couldn't leave one or both.
Don't plan to leave anymore.


No. Once since the Blow-up. Working on that.
Talking? Not much, but more today than yesterday. I keep trying...no pressure, no relationship talk, etc.
Might attend a large Family Event on Mother's Day, waiting for confirmation on this. Otherwise, will try to arrange SOMETHING.
Trying to get her to go on the girls' and I date to see a movie...she hasn't allowed me to watch TV with her, so this is something that may take more time...

We did have an honest and open talk after coming home from the disastrous visit to her Boss' house. This is were I actually LEARNED her EN's. First time I had really heard her express them. We both kind of exploded that evening, and it might be a while before she and I can talk like that again. Remember, she has "had it", ready to move on, so I'm still trying to dampen that feeling before I talk about "us".
But, I'm still working towards that goal! I will use the "clean slate" idea, it is what we need.

Thank you again for your response optin1, it has been like a light in the darkness. You and I have a lot in common...

Thank you all for your support! It gets me charged up to fight another day!

-TC

optin1,

After I posted last night, I was thinking about one of your ideas:


In my situation, this idea is really brilliant. She used to meet the OM before work off site (something that I have yet to confirm has ended, Lord help her and him if I find out there has been a relapse), so a book of pictures of our children in her car might add support in a mental sort of way.
I guess I'll have to start to incorporate psychological warfare into my game plan.
All's fair in Love and War, right?

And trust me, this IS a war.

Thank you everyone for your support!
This forum has been a lifesaver to me.

-TC

Just a couple of quick things went through my mind:

• Have you considered a voice-activated recorder under the seat of her car?
• Have you considered attaching a GPS recorder to the car?
• Would it be appropriate to tell your youngest child that 'mommy has a boyfriend and that is something married people aren't supposed to do'?
• Have you talked to human resources at the company and told them what is going on? In respect to misuse of company time and resources and the potential for sexual harrassment suit?

cinderella,

In response to your questions:

No, but that isn't a bad idea. I'll research.

Actually, yes I have, and have found a fairly inexpensive device to do it (www.TrackingKey.com). We live in a smaller town that makes it fairly easy to follow people.

As I've stated before, I am not keen on doing this, but if i don't believe things have cooled off I'll do it. It's just that this child is my last innocent one....

This is a tough one for me, going to their HR will likely result in both losing their jobs. Now, as far as my WW, she would be a casualty of war, BUT the OM, as for him, WHO CARES, but to his family, this would put them on the street. If I could affect HIM, then I would have no problem doing it. It's just that his family would be devastated. I'm not sure I could live with myself if they suffered because of his selfishness...

Now, I have been in contact with the OM's BS. She has begged me not to go to their HR, as the OM is their only source of income. I have been told that the A is over, but I'm not convinced. I know I hold the trump card here, so if I have to, I'll tell the OM's BS that he should transfer, switch jobs, etc. or I'll go to HR anyway. The BS has indicated that my WW is the aggressor, which is probably true, but if he values his job, he should be able to block her out.

My goal is NC, but I must take a few steps to arrange this...
I also have to collect some more proof the A is still going on.

I'll look into these ideas, thank you cinderella!

-TC

You need WW to have NC with the OM> Go to HR and expose. They can't be allowed to work for the same company. Your exposing is not going to get anyone fired. Their actions, their decision to have an affair will get them fired, maybe.

The OM is destroying your family. The OM does not care about you, your children, your heatlh, childrens well being, your family.

It's unbelieveable that you are worried what can happen to OM and his family. The man that is knifing you in the back.

You do not need proof that the affair is on going. You need to expose.

Yup....that's what I was leading up to.

Very ugly this evening.

This morning while I was checking the balance of our checking account, I noticed that we were $177 in the red. I immediately transferred money to cover the difference, and then proceeded to look at he transactions to see were I had screwed up. I found a debit from the cell phone company that I didn't recognize. I text my WW and asked if she knew what it was. I never got a response. On the way home this evening, I called her and got a very chilly response...seems she was mad I had asked about the cell phone company's charge. Come to find out she had purchased a secret cell phone and used our debit card to pay for it. She deposited the money to cover it, but it didn't get credited in time.

One of her biggest issues with me is she feels I control her, and watch her every move. Do I? Yes, I do. I've been trained to do it since A #1. I did get A LOT BETTER but I never gave her the full trust she wanted. By the time A #2 came along I already was digging to figure out what was going on. (If you haven't figured it out already, I'm a good digger.)

Here is my problem: she is SO UPSET with me I think I took about a dozen steps backwards. I HONESTLY found this little "gem" by accident. I wasn't looking for it.
She screamed at me about keeping out of her personal life. Then she said something that I didn't expect; "how can you expect us to make this work if you are constantly following me and looking over my shoulder?!"
OK, maybe it's not much, I was ready to defend myself for digging but this is the FIRST time since this went south that I've heard ANYTHING positive from her about "us". I know, she was lying about this new phone, and deliberately keeping it a secret. I have EVERY RIGHT to know what is going on. I know that.
Here is my question: she is SO TICKED OFF right now that I can't even imagine her "trusting" me. She feels like I keep her under lock and key. How do I get her to understand I'll back off if she comes to the table...? If this DOES work out, I don't want her to feel like I am keeping her prisoner.

Before I get flamed by the good people here, hear me out!

How can I transition this? I know I was justified to ask questions, dig, etc. OF COURSE, SHE DOESN'T UNDERSTAND THIS. She may NEVER understand this! But what can I do to build some bridge of cooperation? You see, for her to be happy here, she doesn't want to feel like she is always under the microscope! How can I do this? Is there a plan? Is this type of response from WS's normal?

This is a major hurdle in my plan...the WS not feeling like she is being controlled or watched. I know I HAVE TO, to some extent, but I can't see any chance of repair until she feels like I am not keeping her under house arrest...

(I know, it's a two-edge sword)

Thanks for all your help,

-TC

ALSO: I do plan to expose the OM at work, but after the DD gave her mother both barrels this evening (like I said, she figured it out), and after the little cell-phone cover-up, I might give it a day or two...the tension is so thick around here I can't stand it...

You will not be successful if you do not expose and do not expose fist thing tommorrow.

You needed more proof. Hidden cell phone found. Now you have more proof and you still find a reason to not expose. DD yelling at her WWmom is not an exceptable excuse to not expose. They are not equal actions. You are living in the land of denial.

You need to go down to wally world, health care dept, third ailse, on the right hand side, and buy some testicles, two to a box, there right next to the bottles of testosterone.

The marriage will die if there is continued contact.

Period.

Your wife is doing the typical wayward spouse thing. See, around here, we recognize it. They all get the same 'Wayward Spouse Manual' and they read it, study it, memorize it, follow it, and they just don't understand when betrayed spouses wise up and stand up to them.

You know, if she was a faithful wife, you would have no reason to snoop and she would have no reason to be upset about you finding her secrets.[color:#FF6600][/color]

TC,

First of all, was the purchase made recently or just after the exposure ? If she purchased it with devious intention of contacting OM behind your back when you were on your trip, then I would call OM's wife immediately and share that information.

About exposure....There is obviously LOT going on in your home right now. BEFORE you take the nuclear action of exposing it at work, I suggest you sit down with your wife and talk. I mean really....just two of you. You WILL continue to take step backwards if she does not come out completely clean about the affair, be open and honest about everything she does from this point on. Same thing goes for you. Do you understand that ? I mean sitting down one-on-one basis, just two of you ?

Oh, by the way, she does not have a personal life right now after what she has done to your family. However, back off just a bit. I warned you about overreacting earlier. Take it easy. Give that benefit of the doubt (I know I said that). Her words "how can you expect us to make this work...." are indeed encouraging. Take that as positive. Tell her how you feel and why you did it. You are on pins and needles. She needs to understand that. Do that in a CALM manner. Break down in front of her if you cannot control yourself. That is obsolutely ok.

She obviously thinks you are controlling her. (lot of women think that way...so did my wife). They feel very unsafe and insecure. That makes them not share anything with you emotionally. You really really need to calm down, man. You must encourage her to open up.

Making her feel more secure so she can start opening her guts out. She may be hesitant do it at first. So you start first. If things get out of control, take TIMEOUT. I mean literally call a TIMEOUT, step out of the room, whatever. Do not indulge in AOs or DJs. OP, I went through all this myself. We did it...It is possible. It takes immense strength, self control to break the ice. It is new for both you and your wife. BUT that is the need of the hour.

Here is the thing you need to understand. You CANNOT NOT talk to her, find something suspicious, pin her down for truth and then expect things to go positive. Her reaction is not surprising at all. A typical wayward response.

I think you are looking at this wrong. If you are worried about taking steps backwards - in the face of MORE infidelity - she has you by the you know what, and she knows it. SHE needs to be proving to you that she deserves your trust, not the other way around.

It sounds like you are married to someone who knows how to manipulate you into feeling like you have to keep kissing up to her, to keep her from being mad at you. Is that love? Is that even a marriage? I don't think so.

And your answer should be "how can you expect me to want to stay married to you if you are sneaking around behind my back and lying to me?"

See how that works? She tries to manipulate you, to shut you up, so she can keep doing WTH she wants. STOP letting her twist you around her finger. Respect yourself, so that she will respect you.

When you start trying to bring everything to the light, your wife will start what we old-timers call 'fog babble' - that is the crazy, stupid stuff waywards say while in the fog of denial and lust and unreality.

You need to be well versed on several things - -
- angry outbursts (avoid these)
- disrespectful judgements (avoid these)
- the art of exposure
- emotional needs (find hers that you can meet right now)
- reverse babble (there is a thread on General Questions II - somewhere)

Your marriage may yet survive but not if there is a third party involved.