AMEN!!!!

Exactly.



In a New York minute.


Thanks for coming to this thread.

I knew that PA is an emotional need but there was something more than it merely being a need in this situation (at least I felt that it was).

committed

I am not sure that FM should tell his W "You are not physically attractive to me", that would be considered BRUTAL honesty, which is NOT the same as RADICAL honesty.

I think his best bet would be to print off the ENQ, fill it out and ask his W to fill it out also. That way he can clearly tell her what his #1 need is withOUT being BRUTALLY honest.

That could really crush his W, more than is necessary. It sounds like she is already terribly hurt.

FM, the BONUS to asking your W to fill out the ENQ and you filling it out as well is that you get to be as SPECIFIC as you want when describing what PA looks like to YOU.

Does your W know what you do NOT find attractive? That is very important as well...for example, I KNOW my H does not certain types of clothes ~ anything sports-related (that goes from "team" type shirts, to those nylon "sweat suits" that were in style about 10 years ago, to "Nike" (or whatever) clothes with the logo on them.

I know he doesn't like me to wear my running/WO shoes on a daily basis...they are for working out and that is it.

I know that he likes things that fit my body snugly (not loose, like a moo moo or maternity clothes!), but not so tight that I look like I am squeezed into them.

I know that he likes it when my hair is cut short and choppy in the back and above my neckline, and longer in the front. I know he likes it DARK, almost black.

I know that he likes it when I pay special attention to how I wear my eye make-up, but that he does NOT like a lot of make-up.

I know that he likes very stylish clothes and certain name-brands.

Do you see what I am getting at here??? YOU have the ABILITY to help your W BECOME PA to you.

My H has done a phenomenal job at letting me know withOUT hurting my feelings what I can do to be PA to him, and what I need to do to AVOID being UNattractive to him.

And I am VERY happy to oblige. We have also found some RC activities from this...he LOVES to take me shopping and pick out clothes for me. Doing this together fills his LB, and mine too. I am HAPPY to do things that I KNOW are meeting his ENs.

Deleted because this was a double post!

Look, I agree with you that finallymarried screwed up.
I agree that he married the woman for the wrong reason.
I agree that he married her under false pretenses.
I agree that she is the real victim in this marriage -- she didn't do anything wrong, he did.

He screwed up.

But that is not the question. The question now is what to do about it.

Do you think that my suggestions are valid or not? Do you have a different advice for him?

I'm not saying he doesn't have a valid need for an attractive wife. I'm saying he may be so self-absorbed and entitled that he thinks more of his own happiness than hers. Meaning, he doesn't really love her.

When farmers brought in wives from the east coast 150 years ago, they didn't know what they were getting. They just knew they needed a wife and helper (kind of like fm). Sometimes they opened their hearts to learn to love their wives and everything that was good about her - which no doubt led them to feel their wives were beautiful, in their eyes at least. That's what love is.

Those who didn't open their eyes, stayed centered on themselves and just wanted a helper and someone for SF, well, they had pretty miserable lives. Just like fm.

Billy Joel married one of the most beautiful women in the world.

But he picked her apart - she felt inadequate in the attractive spouse department. She went looking for validation elsewhere after several years of this.

He was and is an addict. Maybe not porn, but any kind of addiction skews perception.

There is nothing shallow about having a high AS emotional need.

What is shallow is marrying a woman who is probably very attractive generally, but hiding a porn addiction where she is and will forever be compared to the women who participate in porn and, where she will not measure up - fraud actually - because it can and will destroy her sense of self-worth because she can NEVER measure up to fantasy.

So will you destroy your wife mentally and emotionally by being the Billy Joel type?

Women are already naturally self-conscious about their appearance. There's a woman at work - slender and elegant like a dancer, beautiful and fit but due to her XH's propensity to cheat doesn't feel attractive. 20 years of being run down as "less than" by her spouse took it's toll on her. She now sees herself partly thru his eyes even though she's kicked him out of her life.

Focus on your personal recovery and meeting your wife's needs. Do you even know what her needs are?

The best approach to marriage building is not to come here and find out what your wife isn't doing for you, but rather, find out what you aren't doing for HER.

I ditto the recommendation for 'recoverynation' and also recommend you study up on porn addiction - a national leading expert is Patrick Carnes - he's written several recovery books on the topic.

Another thought - in the areas that your wife's attributes - spiritual, mental, emotional, etc. that attracted you enough to marry her - DO YOU MEASURE UP?

Do you consider yourself her equal? Spiritually? Mentally?

Are you an attractive spouse? Do you see yourself as attractive? Or did you marry her because you feel so bad about your own appearance that you didn't feel you could get someone more attractive?

I've heard it said that men seek out women who they feel worthy of - and avoid women they feel are unworthy of them, or they are unworthy of.

Typically there are some inequities when someone seeks out a spouse that doesn't measure up in some very important area - so that they can feel better about themselves in a counter-balance way.

I highly recommend some introspection here - and the wrong sort of therapy could really wreck your life at this point. You need the kind where you take a good hard look at yourself and if you don't feel adequate, work on those aspects of yourself.

I agree that FM probably needs recoverynation or something else to overcome his porn addiction but that in and of itself is not going to suddenly change his #1 EN to something else.

It might put it in a different perspective, but it will not change it all togeter.

I think he committed fraud when he married her.

He needs to make it right.

My advice would be to divorce.

However, since this is a marriage-building site...it might not be seen as the 'right' thing to suggest.

committed

Scolding this man isn't going to resolve anything.

He needs to make a decision. Either he divorces his wife and lets he find someone that desires her, or he stays married and finds a way to build desire for her. The option that he doesn't have, at least if he wants to live as an ethical man, is to keep this woman as his wife and not work on changing his perception of her.

Look, beauty fades. If you don’t believe me go to your 25 yr. HS class reunion and take a good look at all the former cheerleaders. Think long and hard about what you are doing. If you have a good, kind, ethical woman you would be an utter fool to throw that away because you don’t find her comely.

You could divorce your wife and find a hot woman that may end up treating you like dirt. Cheat on you. Drive you to bankruptcy. She may get cancer and lose her DDs. What then?

I think you need to approach your wife as the gift that she is and let her meet your other needs, whatever they are. I think you will find that in time, if she is meeting your other needs, you will begin to see her as attractive. That is the way we are wired.

So, FM, what have you put in *actions* the last 24 hours to show your W she's an 8 cow wife? What are her top ENs? What LBs are you working on getting rid of?

Ah, New Ears(that is how I am going to think of you), thank you so much fo posting the 8 cow link!!!!!!

Now, I hope, FM reads it and sees how well he can apply it to his marriage.

If you have a good, kind, ethical woman you would be an UDDER fool to throw that away because you don’t find her comely.

(The 8 cow wife)

No - it won't necessarily make his #1 EN any different, but it will make it possible for him to see her as attractive. Frankly, I think he did find her attractive or he wouldn't have been drawn to her in the first place; however, if he's into porn to the scale that I think he is (few addicts in the early stages of recognizing there's a problem and before they admit they're an addict tend to minimize how much they look and how much they crave it!)

He will never see her as attractive on a conscious level while he's into it. Call it the Madonna/wh*re complex - there was a thread on it recently on GQII. Frankly, knowing what I know about this complex, I don't think he WANTS her to meet his attractive spouse need - because he feels dirty by his own longings and he doesn't see her that way.