Hi, Looking4,
I don't know if it's just me, but after reading the last few pages of your thread, it seems to me that your husband may be having an affair (having his EN's meet elsewhere). Quite a few of the signs are there (emotional withdrawal, secrecy, blame shifting, among other things)... I really hope I'm wrong.

You say "H doesn't lie." If my suspicions are correct, it may no longer apply...

Praying for you.

L4,

I do understand what you are talking about. In order for my wife to even consider something from MB I have to demonstrate it constantly for a while and then try to explain what I have been doing in order to seek her buy in. POJA is a really big issue at our house.

Her normal way of negotiating is to resort to IB when she thinks I might have a differing view and then hold a lot of resentment if I even ask to do much of anything. But what I have learned is that the IB is our main issue, from both sides. Typically it is her doing the IB thing and then I end up with the dreaded AO and both LB$ end up pretty low. It often takes a long time to rebuild things back up so that we can re-enter negotiating for something important.

But I believe it is often more of a communications problem than anything. She seldom states what she wants from a negotiation until she informs me of what she has already decided. And ANYTHING I say that is not simply going along becomes "your negative attitude." It SUCKS some times.

And even when I think we have reached an agreement, it doesn't always turn out that way.

I can share recent examples if you want...

But I find that if I am doing a good job at meeting her ENs and we are spending enough recreational time together, all the decisions go much better and are easier to reach agreement on.

There will come a time L4 when you will simply have to approach the subject of how to continue recovery. Unless he at least buys into staying married for the long haul, you will reach an impasse at some point that will not be able to be breached.

But I don't think you are there yet. I think you can still work on showing him what you want as far as UA, ENs, POJA, PORH etc without telling him all about how it is supposed to work. And believe me when I say that when his LB$ is full enough, many of your negotiating problems will disappear as if by magic. The question becomes, can you keep up the effort until that day?

I'm not talking here about paying restitution for your poor choices by putting up with a bunch of unreasonable crap, but if you can try to pump his LB$ up before even trying to ask for something that requires POJA agreement, it can get a lot easier to discuss things.

And if he says "No" sometimes the answer just has to be "No." "No" IS an answer, even when it isn't the one we want to hear.

Can you site an example of how POJA has failed on something?

I know I often offer a choice of A, B, C or D and get in reply "None of the above." But that isn't a failure of POJA. It often indicates that maybe there is an answer I haven't though of yet. The trick is to avoid IB in absence of agreement because THAT will lower the LB$ balance very quickly.

Time to go home. I'll try to get back later...

Mark

I think I'm nearing this impasse, Mark. I'm doing my best to keep the smile on my face but my heart some days wonders why.

I don't know. There is going to be a point when I shouldn't be LBed, when I shouldn't be disrespected during conversation, when he needs to practice some of the guidelines for POJA, too. But if you think I'm not in the position yet to expect these things, then I won't. I can do this some more.

I know I'm not great at this. Some days are definitely better. I am, however, very conscious of LBs and his ENs so I feel I am doing the work on a rather consistent basis. Yes, I'm falling short on PA, but everywhere else I think I'm doing right by H.

It's an answer I've gotten used to.

Just last week... (In summary)

I asked H how he would feel about hosting Sis’ 40th birthday party at our home. Sis and her partner have a tiny house, we have a great party house, and Sis’ partner asked if they could have the soiree at our place. Partner offered to pay for housecleaning services before and after.

H said he didn’t like the idea because it would be a party lasting all night. I said we could schedule the party to end at a specific time – that we can control when the party ends because it’s our house.

He said the kids would get in the way and would be up too late. I said I believe kids are welcome, but we could still ask any number of friends to take them for the night.

He said we don’t have enough parking. We don’t have a lot of driveway parking but there is plenty of parking off the lane and on the main road. It’s never been an issue he’s raised before when we’ve had gatherings. (Our neighbors have huge parties 5 or 6 times every year and find plenty of parking.)

H said he didn’t think we’d have room for 40 people. I reminded H that we had more than 50 people for a BBQ a few years back. If needed, I could get friends to help move furniture down to the garage to make more room and if it’s nice, the crowd will spill out onto our 400 square foot deck.

H said he doesn’t want to have to drop a bunch of money and whenever you host a party, you end up spending money. Sis’ partner said they’d take care of all the food and cleaning so no money would be asked for. They just need a space as everywhere she’s looked into renting, it’s a minimum of $500.

Then H said he’d be willing to help pay to rent a hall or some other place – completely contradictory to his earlier objection regarding money. ??? One moment he said we can’t afford to host the party, then literally one minute later he said he’d rather help pay for a hall.

Finally I asked, “We have a great house in which to entertain and we’ve had great parties here. Every objection you’ve thrown out I have provided a solution for you. I promise that you won’t be asked to help with the party unless you want to. They don’t need money, time, or anything from us other than our house and hopefully our attendance. You don’t have to attend and I’ll take care of everything. I’m asking if we can please do this as Sis turns 40 once. What do you think?” H answered, “I don’t want to have the party. Sorry. ” I asked why and he said, “I just don’t want to.” I asked if there was anything that I could say that might allow him to at least think about it and H said, “No. ” And that was it.

I felt that H did not consider my interests. He didn’t seem to care that I wanted to do this one thing for Sis’ special day. H likes BBQs, he can be very social, and he likes the kind of music that will certainly be played. Sis and H have been getting along the last few times we’ve all been together so I don’t get it. But, the POJA says I have to let it go.

I’ve dissected this conversation as I was reviewing Love Busters this weekend. I don’t think I could have done anything differently. But I would love to hear your thoughts.

Oh, and if you need more examples... I have more.

Thanks, Mark.

Hi, seekingtruth527. Thank you for your interpretation. I really really really think you're wrong. H can be a bitter man, a negative man, a down-right smart-a**, and really mean. But he cannot and does not lie. He is one of the most honest people I've met. He wouldn't do that to himself nor to his family. I don't see it in him at all. I know most of the signs too, and while on the surface they seem suspicious, deeper in they're not. (And those negative things are not all H is. I was just listing bad stuff. To be clear, H has many good qualities.)

The behaviors you mention I attribute to H wanting to be in control. That has been his MO from very early on and with my deceit, his need to control has been turned up even more. I think he's trying to protect himself. I don't agree with his methods, but I believe that's the motivation behind his actions.

L4,

I'm at work and can't begin my usual long-winded thesis right now but I will try to get back here tonight if I can.

But FWIW, this might simply be one of those times when there really is no way to get a yes answer from him and POJA isn't the problem. Maybe he just doesn't want to throw a party. Maybe he doesn't want to throw one for Sis. Maybe he had other plans in mind and now realizes that those plans are going to bite the dust too.

Like I said already, POJA is not always a way to get what we want. Negotiating to find a solution to a problem has to allow for both sides to have input but also requires that BOTH sides want what is decided.

If I want a new car and my wife does not, maybe the answer is that I don't get a new car. The kind of car, the color of the car, the type of car can all maybe play a part in her decision to not get a new one, but I really can't get a new car, no matter what the car is, unless she is in agreement.

POJA applies when you are going to get a new car and can't agree on the kind, color, type etc and you might be able to get an agrement by negotiating. But If I ask "Can I get a new car?" and her answer is "No!" then I might try another approach but unless she says "Yes!" there really isn't much to talk about. If she says "only a red one," we can work on it, but "No" pretty much stops the negotiation at that point.

But I also see another aspect of this that might be at play here. Sis is the one he has already shown he has a problem with. You recently had a serious issue surrounding her, right? From his POV could he be seeing this as more IB on your part, as in, "this is already a done deal and now I want you to agree?"

I'm just guessing any way and really need to get some stuff doen before I go home.

I'll be back!

Mark

Darn. Because I've typed a lot out here these last two days and I'm still waiting for answers.

It could indeed be that but it shouldn't be. I told him I had been asked by Partner if we could open our home for the event and I told her that I had to talk with H first. So I told H the truth before he could even ask, that I gave Partner no answer one way or the other -- only replied that I would have to get back to her after discussing with H.

If it was because H wants to not help Sis or doesn't like Sis or anything along those lines, as part of RH, shouldn't he tell me that then? He gave me several other reasons as if to get out of it and when there was a reasonable answer for every problem he brought forth, he still said no. So why mask the "no" with all the other excuses? Why not just say no and tell me truthfully why -- if he hadn't already?

BTW, he would know probably half of the people who are invited to this party -- some he even really likes.

As I mentioned in my response to seekingtruth, I see some of H's nos as controlling. Something that may be somewhat bothersome or inconveniencing slightly or he just doesn't want to be a part of in anyway. Even if it's something that I really really want, and he knows this, he won't bend for me. I know he doesn't have to as part of POJA. He can simply say no. I wish that pleasing me on occasion would be reason enough to say yes. Especially when it requires minimal to no effort on his part. This is where we differ. What I see as selfish, I'm assuming (because I don't know this), he sees the same act as being private or controlling his environment or... I don't know.

What I do know is if the request came from him, I'd give a resounding yes then ask how I could help. Because I'd know it was important to H, and because I like helping people who are in a jam -- especially family.

Yay!

L4:

You are not understanding the POJA. Mark is being nice to you.

And I'm better understanding the dynamics in your Marriage.

Simply put: Your Husband doesn't want to have the birthday party in his house for your sister.

Sorry end of story.

Mark posted this:


You replied with this:


Your husband SHOULD have just said: Sorry, L4, I don't want the woman in my house"

But he didn't. Should he practice RH? Yes. He doesn't KNOW what that concept is, but your idea of POJA was to refute his every concern with whatever logical answer that you might have.

Boy, have I been on the recieving end of that. Flamingo would have many reasons why I should JUST AGREE WITH HER.

Then she learned about the POJA and PH. So did I. I just say "NO" and she respects that. I respect her "NO" We discuss things that have a solution that is obtainable to the two of us.

Flamingo and I get caught in the same dynamic still. I think it is very important to discuss and get her agreement before I obligate her or our house to some other committment. There are things that I should just KNOW that she isn't going to like, but I DON'T. But when I tell the person asking, I need to speak with my Wife about it, Flamingo asks why she has to be the one who says NO. I feel that I am trying to get her opinion FIRST. I could have killed the idea with the requester FIRST, by saying NO, but I am interested in the idea, but I don't want to speak for her.

Your H doesn't want this to happen. No POJA in the world is going to fix that.

Stay with the program. Keep learning about the program, and keep applying it to your everyday interactions with your H. Don't just use that which you think you can use to your advantage. It sounds like to me, that you tried to use POJA to your advantage, but really ignored its principles.

And this:

Are you sure? This is easy to say. Give me some examples in the past when you DID say no.

L4, you have come along way. You still need to keep working it.

LG

Hi L4

I share your sister woes too...

She does loads for us with childcare and I do loads for her but J doesn't see it like that and sees her H as a lazy [censored]. We have the party house and always have the family parties here and have always had her eldest's b'day parties here - J moans.

From reading your thread I see I need to listen more, I'm sure if i start to take his side more he will stop being so down on them.

I'm finding it hard to try and tell sis that I need to make it work with J. She goes from being very sympathetic towards him then wanting me to get shot. I need to have a clear voice in my head.

Since the A, We/ I have actually been spending more time with a couple/friend that knows nothing about my A or J's abusive past. We both find this such a relief and we are so much more together when we are witht them. But sis can feel it (I do still see her everyday) and is sort of jealous about our friednship with them which I totally understand.

She is very very sensitive though and is likely to collapse in tears if I explain this to her.

Anyway the point wasn't for me to share yet more of my woes but to just gently probe to see whether a lot of your inner battle and occasonal concerns that you're not making the right future is because of sis's opinion of your H 9 iknow you said you were with her after dday when he was so hurt and upset). Do you have lots of people around you that support your M without any reservations?

My responses here are going to sound defensive, LG. And perhaps some are. But I really am trying to break this down so I can understand what I apparently still do not.

Then he should tell me this.

If he feels this way, he's a hypocrit. He doesn't appear to mind her in our house when we need a baby-sitter. And he invited her over here last Sunday.

I'm misunderstanding the whole "Successful Negotiation" part of POJA, then. Guideline 2 in the book talks about gathering information to help us understand what it will take to solve the problem. And Guideline 3 talks about brainstorming with abandon in order to find mutually acceptable solutions. To quote, "...if you put your minds to it, you'll think of options that please you both." As H gave his objections, I listened to him and then offered solutions. At no time do I believe I was being disrespectful. I didn't realize I was refuting his concerns. I thought I was listening to his concerns then offering alternatives.

I gotta say that I have been much better at letting no be no. I've been letting no mean no for several months now -- perhaps out of guilt. I think H likes the less pursuant L4. I'm probably allowing more things to take place than I normally would in hopes to make H happy. I'm also putting up little resistance when H says no to me for the same reason.

Remember, in the example we're discussing here, H didn't say no until well into the conversation, after he had run out of things that might cause problems for the party. It took me asking him point blank again toward the end before he said no.

How you present this back to the person determines "who" said no. If you say, "I asked my wife and she said no," then of course she is the one who gets blamed. If you say, "I talked with my wife and we decided no," that's a decision you both made and you'll both be held responsible. I know you're counseling me here, LG, but when a friend asks if I can meet her for lunch, I almost always say, "Let me check with H to make sure we don't have any conflicts." If the person has a problem with me checking with my spouse first, that's that person's problem. Not mine.

And I don't see what is wrong with this. You don't want to assume for your W. So you take the information from the person, say you'll discuss it with W, you ask Flamingo giving her the chance to give her input, you negotiate or don't, then you take that decision back to the person as, "We talked about it and decided <blank>." Is this a bad thing? People change their minds. Up until a month ago, I forbid H to get a motorcycle. I changed my mind. What if he had assumed I would keep saying no?

I know this now. We hosted a party for Sis a year-and-a-half ago. Sis just did us a huge favor changing her schedule on short notice to stay with and chaffeur our kids for 24-hours so I could go to Vegas. And Sis and H have been getting along. I didn't think asking about hosting the party was out of line. I didn't demand we do it. I sought his agreement. I didn't get it and that was the end of it.

Isn't POJA supposed to be something you use when you want to get agreement with your spouse about something? Isn't it agreement that I was seeking? It sounds like you're suggesting I was manipulating H somehow by using POJA. (Tell me if I'm wrong.) If I'm doing POJA properly (which I am apparently so NOT doing), then how can I be manipulating him?

Please tell me what principals I ignored. I'm feeling very stupid right now. I'm sitting here with my Love Busters book not 18" away from my side, flipping through its pages. I think I'm a good student, but I'm getting a D- here.

Yep. And precedent supports this.

I'm sure I have. The last big one I can think of happened when H took personal property of mine and put it along with a lot of our cash in a safety deposit box that I didn't have access to. Demanding to get my notebook back and/or access to the box is the last full-on demand that I can remember making.

I did say no to a D when H said that was what he wanted.

I said no to filling the truck with gas today when H told me to. (Didn't ask, but told me to.) I happened to follow this no up 5 seconds later with, "I will do it later today when I have time. I don't have time now."

I'm sure I've said no to things regarding what I want to eat or if I can pick up H's dry cleaning. But as far as events or big decisions, I can't think of any since D-day other than what I mentioned above. I said okay to looking for a new car. I said yes to the motorcycle. I've said yes to H spending nights at his dad's or going out with friends. I've said yes to staying out of his office -- even though we have important family documents in the file cabinet and on the computer in there.

I'll keep thinking on this...

'K.

Good question, ST. Been thinking on this...

The people around me support marriage and believe strongly in it. None of my close friends have been divorced and none of my immediate family. My closest friends and family support H. And they would do anything for our family. They have known H for many years since we grew up in the same town and have been together for 25 years. Some close to me have expressed they are concerned that I might become a doormat again -- as their observations led them to believe I was for a while there. But no one has said I should leave H. No one has encouraged me to give up. If being married to H is what I want, then they support that 100%.

I was unhappy for a long time, ST, and those who love me saw that. I didn't admit it, but they saw it. And now that everything is out in the open, people are being more protective of me -- perhaps in trying to make sure I don't self-distruct again. And making sure I remain honest with myself I interpret as my friends and family caring for me and thus my M since it's what I want.

I've highlighted enough...

I asked...

He answered...

But...

But...

But...

But...

(Please Mom... )

But...

POJA is intended to resolve disputes not to give us a way to press until we get what we want.

If I want a Chevy and my wife wants a Ford, we have a point to discuss. Maybe I can convince her and maybe she can convince me and MAYBE we end up buying a Dodge (not bloody likely)

But if I say "I want a Chevy" and she says "We can't afford it." Where do I go from there? I REALLY want that new Chevy pickup with that ex-football player tough-guy best mileage of any full size truck...

She gave an answer when she gave the REASON for her answer.

But I could skip lunch every day for the next five years to pay for it...

Yeah, OK. Skip lunch and when you have enough saved up you can go buy it...

But I could sell some of that stuff in the garage that I never get to use anyway...

When you have enough to pay for it we'll talk...


But L4 would have said "YES!"

If you are really honest you have to admit that you don't know what you would say depending on what he was asking for.

You said "yes" to the bike. You said "yes" to some other stuff. By your own admission your answer was as much because you felt obligated because of your affair as because you were in agreement.

If he asked for something you would consider it. I would say he considered it and decided against it.

I am NOT telling you to acquiesce to your husband in every circumstance.

POJA requires discussion. It can require brainstorming. But brainstorming is not simply trying to overcome every objection that is raised and trying a different angle to leverage the conversation in a more favorable manor.

When negotiations break down you have to simply walk away and try again LATER and not keep pressuring (yes you applied pressure) in order to get your own way.

What if he suddenly came to you and said "How would you feel about going to _____(name really awful place here) to become missionaries?

And you might say "We'd have to give up everything.

And He'd say "We could rent the house so we didn't have to sell it right away. And we could pay someone to keep the cars for us or we could sell them so that we didn't have to deal with them any more. (We'd store the bike though)"

But the kids would have to leave their friends and...

"The kids will be fine. Look at the opportunity here for them. They could spend time out in the jungle and learn about another culture..."

There are diseases in the jungle...

"But those people need to hear the story of God's forgiveness..."

But we'd have to leave everyone we know and go out there alone...

"We'd be able to come home a time or two per year..."


(Starting to lose track of who is trying to convince who of what here)

POJA is NOT supposed to be a way to beat another person into submission. It is NOT supposed to be a method of getting the other person to acquiesce to our demands. It's about finding an answer that makes both of you happy and not a way to make one agree to what the other wants. It's about both saying "yes" as opposed to dragging a surrender out of the other person by overcoming their objections.



"Want to go out for dinner?"

"It's after 9:30."

What is the answer being given?
Is the answer an invitation to overcome the objection?
Will it NOT be 9:30 if we argue long enough? (Yeah, it'll be 11:45)


Me:"How would you like this color for the livingroom?"

You:"I think it is too dark."

Me:"Then how about this lighter color?"(POJA)
or
Me:"But I think it would be just right." (Not POJA-Attempt to leverage. Discounts your feelings)
Me:"It isn't any darker than what we have now." (Not POJA- DJ! You must not understand the question here ro don't know what you are talking about because I decided it isn't too dark)
Me:"The room has to get painted before the big party in two weeks." (Not POJA- Selfish demand! I WANT this room painted and I want it painted NOW)

Do you see the difference L4? There is a subtle difference between trying to get an agreement and simply trying to get our own way.

And I will repeat this one more time...

If his Love Bank is full enough he WILL begin to do things from his Giver instead of his Taker. And I can't talk to him about what HE should do because HE is not here right now.

How do you MAKE him do something? You can't; you won't and you shouldn't even try.

POJA is not supposed to give us leverage in negotiation and isn't supposed to get us the answer we want going in. That is the whole point of negotiating, to find a solution that is agreeable not a response that came from giving up the fight. If you are trying to get him to give in to your view it ain't POJA.

And if only one answer is acceptable to you, that ain't POJA either because POJA isn't possible under that condition.



We're also back to the expectations gap here. You expected to be able to convince him and already had the party underway in your thoughts. You knew who would come and where they would stand as they sipped their drink and you knew who would step onto that 400 sqft deck...

ETA: I would suggest that you had also played out the argument in your mind before beginning the conversation with him and so had all your ducks in a row before you even asked. You planned the answers to his objections which means you knew the objections before you started. It also means you knew what he would answer and really did use negotiating as a way to leverage him into changing his mind.

Mark

L4, I wanted to share, thanks for posting that up about your sister’s party. There’s a lot I wanted to ask

Is your sister a friend of the marriage?
Does she support and encourage your marriage, or is she hoping that it will die a peaceful death, thinking that’s more in your best interest?
Does she like your H, respect him as a person she likes? Or does she tolerate him because he’s your H and your kids’ dad?
Does he like her, respect her as a person he likes? Or does he tolerate her because she babysits and because she’s your sister?

I got H’s enthusiastic agreement to throw a 50th birthday party for a close friend of ours, and now he’s starting to raise objections. In the past, I would have tried to counter the specific objections. But I remembered your post yesterday, and accepted, either he feels happy about her, or he doesn’t. So instead of talking about the specific objections, the smoke and mirrors covering the O&H hidden underneath, I shared my O&H. That I feel less than confident in my ability to negotiate a win-win here. And that makes me sad, because I won’t throw the party if he’s not enthusiastic, and I know she wouldn’t want us to throw the party if he’s not enthusiastic. I value her friendship, and I know she’ll understand. If this was a tug of war, I dropped the rope.

He brought it back up within 5 minutes. That he knows she’s done a lot for us, and he would like to do this for her, too. But how about we put some limits on it?

I think being reminded that we don’t do anything without enthusiastic agreement, the freedom to say no without “being the bad guy” gave him the freedom to say yes.

I think I do. How can I practice this when H isn't participating in the principals of POJA?

When will this happen, Mark. Please tell me soon. Because he's drifting away and I don't know what more I can do to pull him back.

Not really. H hasn't supported too many of my ideas lately. At least not enthusiastically.

I guess I think of having answers as having thought it through -- having really thought about it. I'll try to change and not think how things might play out until I talk with H.

Thank you, Mark.

It probably depends on the day. As she's seen me stand up for my M the last six months she's backed it more. She baby-sits so H and I can go out or get away together. She hasn't offered opinions on our M without me probing first. And I don't do that any more.

She's seen a lot of emotional abuse from my H and so she's cautious. She doesn't speak badly of H and she tells me that she will do anything for me and if I want to be married to him, she will do whatever she can to help make that happen. I know this isn't a ringing endorsement, but I think it's the best she can do at this time based on her history with H. To really know, I'd have to ask her.

She likes, H, but I don't know how much she respects him as my husband. Again, she's seen a lot. She tolerates him and they have good conversations when they talk about music, sports, local news, and hometown acquaintances.

I think he likes her but he does not respect her. He appreciates how much she does and what she means to our kids and to me. They were definitely closer before she disclosed she's lesbian.

Glad I could help, e_o.

I need help.

e_o suggested that I share with my H what I posted here two days ago.
Is it too early for me to put these feelings out there? How can I know when it's okay to start working on the M? What can I look for to see if H is healing at all from my devastation?

We're backsliding. I'm trying to fight it from my side with my actions, but I can't force H to spend UA with me. I can't force him to hug me. I can't force him to have SF. I can't force him to not LB. I can't force him to connect or converse with me. But I know H's recovery takes precedence here and I don't want to say or do anything that is going to reverse or stall any progress on his behalf.

I'm not triggering. I don't know what brought this on. I won't give up. But I'm getting tired. And this morning I can't stop crying.

You are at about six months post D-day. Are you really backsliding or is this the six month bump in the rollercoaster? At 6 months, I was a maniac with my H and he steadfastly remained resolute about working towards R.

I have been following your posts and have thought you approach things pretty well with your H. I have been very hopeful for your R.

AM

Hey there, L4.... sorry I've been MIA for a bit. I am a drive by poster most of the time ... but a regular reader. And your thread is one of the few I keep up on almost daily... because it reminds me of how far my H and I have come, how far I've come, and because Mark's posts (and everyone else's) because they are super helpful for me too.

I've noticed the despair recently in your posts. And I wanted you to know that I know how that feels and that I've been there. And honestly, sometimes I still backslide back there. I know how it feels to honestly not see the light at the end of the tunnel and just be bone weary. I know how it feels to honestly believe that this is the best it will ever get-- and to be not happy with that "best".

On these boards, there's a lot of focus on the rollercoaster that the BS goes through, the timing of that, etc. Not a lot of focus on the FWS's rollercoaster. Or really even mentions of it. I think that's partially because there's FAR fewer fully FWS's around here... and partially because well, the reason we are on this rollercoaster is only because of our own choices-- our spouses are there because we forced them to be-- they didn't have a choice. Suck it up, buttercup is the message that is sent to the FWS. And while I don't disagree with that... I do think that the rollercoaster aspect at least needs to be discussed from a FWS viewpoint... so we know what is "normal" and what isn't.

And, L4, everything you've gone through, the despair, no light at the end of the tunnel weariness... is normal. And it also got the "worst" for me at about the 6 month mark. I remember thinking/feeling exactly as you are.

Another thing to keep in mind as I've been reading your thread that I've picked up on.... you seem to be "sacrificing" a lot. The theme of the day is POJA, I see. Well, when you "sacrifice" instead of being O&H and telling your H things like you are not comfortable with him getting a motorcycle (amongst other things, but that is just the one that popped into my head)... you are setting yourself up for disappointment and resentment. Because you "sacrifice" for him (thus, not following POJA because you are NOT fully enthusiastic, you are just "pretending" you are...) you then inherently expect the same in return. It is human nature. You can't give to him just in hopes that he'll return the favor-- do something to make you happy, just to make you happy even if it doesn't make him happy (ie, sis's party). You have to give to him BECAUSE YOU WANT TO... and for no other reason. There's no expectations attached. You are ENTHUSIASTIC about what you agree to-- not enthusiastic that he'll recognize what you've SACRIFICED for him... and then do the same for you. You're setting yourself up to be upset down the road.

My main point is what you are feeling is normal, L4. Just keep plugging away. When I'd get really down in the dumps... I'd plan something super special for us... something I knew would put him in a great spirit, enhance intimacy... give us a boost. And that boost that WE would get would then boost ME for awhile. Even though I was the one that initiated, put in the effort, I would also reap the benefits. And get enough "gas" in my tank to keep plugging along for awhile. You did such a wonderful job on Valentine's day... remember the intimacy you created? Why not think of something super special for the two of you again. Foster that intimacy, (fill his L$$!!), and he'll give in return-- even if that intimacy is only for one evening, you'll both greatly benefit, trust me. I've noticed I can run pretty far on fumes anymore, and I know that you can too I've seen it!

I'm sorry you are going thru these feelings L4. Hopefully knowing that this is normal will "help" a bit.

E.

Oh, L4

I'm sorry you're so sad. You know I'm no expert and you know I am for your marriage.

There is more that I would like to say and add, but I think I am the wrong person. You always get plenty of great advice.

hang in there, ride out the 6 month bump


Staytogether

L4 and E,

First, thank you for your post E, I feel better (like that matters) knowing that what L4 is feeling and has been for some time, the wearing down, is normal. I can't relate to your H anymore L4, so there is nothing I can offer you from my BS viewpoint.

I see you getting worn out, and it makes me sad for you.
I'm disheartened by Mr. L4 (like that matters too) for not wanting to participate in R, other than existing in the household.
But I am not in his specific shoes, gender or situation, so I have no opinion.

I have a question for you E. Mr. L4's secrets of passwords, and off limits to his office, ..... is this 'normal' ?
I'm trying to understand this.
If this is normal, where does the line end and it becomes disrespectful to L4?

Your question L4 about stepping out and asking H about the future ( I think that was the jist of it right? ), I'm not sure if you could handle his answer right now ... if it was one that you don't want to hear.
I agree with e_o, just not sure about the timing, but maybe it is the best time. Think about for a few days and collect your emotions and thoughts.

I think you need something positive back from H, or you will break soon. You will just have to come here and we will give you some 's, until H steps up.

H and sis thing .... might he be uncomfortable with the homosexual thing, despite him telling you otherwise.

Hang tight.
And yes, be patient, be patient, be patient.

L4, are you getting enough sleep or are you running on half a tank?