I am making suggestions for things, but don't push. When I feel he's distant, I step back and give him space, but make my presence known should he want to talk or be with me.

Thank you for answering for V and for me, E.

You nailed it, E. Sometimes I think I'm balancing on the tightrope perfectly, next I feel like I'm in the net below. And then there are days I'm scared the net doesn't even exist any more and what if I make a mistake? It is is the most emotionally draining thing -- doing this on a daily basis.

I pray for peace.

Thank you.

That is a great post. And yes I can.

Yes.

He suspected this -- that she knows all -- especially right after D-day when I was a shell of a human in her home. She didn't get to see him and his pain, only the effect on me during this time. And I've talked with both of them about it.

Sis truly wants the best for me, and if keeping her at arm's length for a while is what I need to keep working on my M, she will be deeply hurt but she won't make me feel bad about it. She will support me and my decision because that's who she is. We've been through so much together and she loves me unconditionally.

Sis is going through some very tough things herself. We've always been there for each other -- in whatever way is needed. So the idea of keeping a distance from her when she needs me so much, is hard to think about. She is a fantastic woman. People have let her down in the past and I don't want to do the same. But I'll do what I have to for my M.

I'll take it. And return it. {{{{{{{{{{{{ST}}}}}}}}}}}}}

I knew you were a "silver lining" kind of lady.

Thank you, V, but no pats yet. Still a long way to go.

Another brilliant post, Mark.

Okay.

It seems so hard to imagine you in that place, Mark. You are such a beacon of hope, strength, and wisdom for so many here. Including me. I read it and am waiting for your book. Thank you for bringing it to my attention.

I know this, LG. And I needed the care so much yesterday which is why I asked for help. I needed it in heaps and I'll take the bombs every time.

So... What kind of car are we talking about here? Because recently it's been a Hummer. Though today it's more like a Town Car and H has one hand helping me. I guess that's an LV (little victory -- to coin Mark's term).

You dance a good jig, Mark.

Bwah ha ha! Love it. I want more.

While I feel I'm puckering up 23.8/7, I'm sure it's more like 22/7. And you're right that I probably need it to be 24/7 before H sees the sincerity behind my actions.

"Yeeeaaaaaahhhhhhh..."

Am I done yet? Anyone else exhausted by my responses?

THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!

I was in a dark place yesterday. I'm glad I had commitments I couldn't break otherwise I would have probably crawled into a hole. Thank you everyone for the understanding, the wise words, the voices of experience, and the compassion.

Y'all amaze me.

I was going to write some other random thoughts of things, but I think I need to give my keyboard a break (good thing I didn't have to work this afternoon!) and I'll see y'all maybe later. H has the first of three motorcycle classes tonight so perhaps I'll come back.

Then again, Survivor is on.

Funny how I can relate to that show...

You are seeing the dilemma that every BS that comes here and is told to identify the top ENs of their WS goes through. Not one time have I ever seen a WS willingly fill out the ENQ, the LBQ, the REI or any of the other forms. That is because they are in Withdrawal (as in the state of Withdrawal) and have no interest in doing much of anything to fix the broken relationship. They have already moved on.

Now your H isn’t moving on from what I can see since he is there and does make investments in the relationship and in you from time to time. He just doesn’t seem to want to go all in yet; perhaps because he doesn’t see the payoff because all he knows is the old marriage that maybe he isn’t remembering that fondly in recent months.

So with no input and no real way to get him to identify his ENs you need to correctly identify them for him so that you can begin to meet them correctly. If you get the top 3 right or at least 2 of the three you will begin to make big deposits very quickly and maybe by tweaking your assessment a bit we can get you to making those big deposits instead of struggling so much with those tiny minimum payments we all seem to fall into.

Let’s evaluate your assumptions here:

You have ID’d FS as his #1. What leads you to this conclusion?

O&H I can see as maybe a big deal, but when I first filled out the ENQ it was my #1 by a mile. The thing is that I had been lied to so much in recent months that I was sick of the lies and wanted only to get to the truth. Right after D-day it was a BIG deal for me. But as I got to the truth and as I learned more about ENs I discovered that there were a lot of things that were more important. But I also learned that the most important thing is that which you don’t seem to be getting. We tend to focus on what we don’t have instead of what we do have and once we have the terminology we need to talk about ENs we can quickly identify what is missing. The truth is that there is always something missing.

AS might be right on the money, but unless you know what that means to him can be pretty hard to get just right. I mean if for him attractive means hair and make-up done, not wearing sweats but something a little less informal, it can be pretty easy to get right. But if to him attractive is you twenty years younger, with perfect skin, hair and make-up perfect, and dressed as if you were a top model it might be a little harder, though not necessarily insurmountable. My point is that AS is a visual thing, but is not really necessarily a certain “look.”

Men are normally pretty visual. So are large mouth bass. And when something looks just right, it triggers inside both a reaction that is more instinct that rational thought process. If I get the right look to my lure, I can catch bass almost at will. I find the right trigger (called a releaser by scientists) and I can make a bass do what he doesn’t even think he wants to do. But a lot of things can be combined into that to arrive at just the right thing I need to get the bass to bite. It can be a smell, a shape, a color, a flash or even a sound. The best bass lures are those that hit all of these senses at once with the right combination to get a reaction.

Now men are usually a lot easier to catch than bass. That’s because we are more predictable and not as affected by things like the weather or time of day. But when all the other things are just right, we react in a predictable manner.

What I am saying is that if he has a favorite outfit, a favorite look or a favorite perfume that you wear, any one of those things contribute to that releaser and finding the right combination or at least close enough to that combination for the situation and circumstances and you get the right reaction every single time. While it might be easier if he could just tell you what attractive is to him, unless he has thought about it, researched it a while and identified exactly what combination is just right, he isn’t going to be able to tell you anyway.

I’ve never had a bass tell me what will make him bite on any given day. But that doesn’t stop me from catching him. I use past experience, the research I have done and what has worked for other fisherman under similar circumstances and put things together as I spend my day on the water. I have been out fishing one time this year for less than three hours and have caught a half dozen bass from 1.5 to 3.5 pounds. Next time I go, I would bet that I will catch more. And if I could go every day for a week, I could dial in my presentation till I was catching bass almost at will.

Based on what has gotten him to react in the past, what can you identify as his primary releaser? What would be something else that would likely add to that? You know these things, L4 because he has mentioned them in the past or you have a memory of getting it just right a time or two over the years. You just have to think about it a bit.

RC is a no-brainer. You do what he likes to do with him and find things that you both enjoy and do them together as much as possible. You know these things too or can find them by trial and error if need be.

Family Commitment I might look at a little harder since usually that is a woman’s top EN someplace in the list. Domestic Support is closely related and usually more in line with the way men work. I’m not saying you are wrong; just think you need to examine this to see if you have the right EN identified.

I know that for me AS is a bigger deal now than during my wife’s affair because during her affair she looked phenomenal. She was in the best shape of her life and dressed to show it off. She looked so good she caused traffic accidents when she went out. I watched guys walk into things trying to watch her walk by. But one of the ways she protects her boundaries is to become less attractive so that she doesn’t have to deal with the attention she gets as much. SO now she wears jeans and sweatshirts most of the time, has put on about 35 pounds or more (she’s only 5’2” so that is a lot) and makes little effort at looking good. This too points to the way our ENs can change with time and under varying circumstances.

So why do you believe those are his top 5? What specifically has he said or done that would lead you to that list being accurate?

Example: Not long ago there was a guy struggling to meet his WW’s ENs that was posting here. He thought his WW’s top EN was RC because she was always going out dancing and drinking with her friends. Once he was able to see what was really going on though, he realized that the recreational aspect was nothing more than the way she was able to carry on her affair since she would meet up with OM while out with her friends.

Another example: A FWW here nearly fell into another EA by allowing one of her ENs to be met by someone not her husband. It almost made her give up. But as she worked through the situation she found that it wasn’t the EN she though he was meeting that was what he was really giving her. It was her EN of conversation that was being met and just a little at a time the guy was making Love Bank deposits without her even knowing it was happening just by talking to her and letting her talk in return. She didn’t even realize he was making those deposits until she began to have doubts about her recovery and then she doubted everything she had already done since the feelings had snuck up on her again. Her solution was to spend more time talking to her husband and actually found that he enjoyed their conversations more as time went on. She thought her EN that he met was admiration and might have been true once the deposits had been made into both LB$.

But she was also able to tell her husband right away that she also needed some admiration from him because of their more frequent conversation and found that he did indeed admire her more than she thought, just because she was now spending the time relying on him to get her Conversation EN met instead of getting it met elsewhere.

Time to leave work for home again…

Just to be annoying, mine did. He filled in the 5LL one honestly, filled in the LBQ honestly, but lied when he filled in the ENQ

Lil,

He did these things while still pursuing the affair? He wasn't trying to work on the marriage but still actively engaged with OW and filled them out?

That's what I get for throwing around absolutes...

Mark

L4, I must just butt in here. His top EN is not FS. I know he wants a solid financial input from you, but it's not no.1.

Like Mark, I think that as a BS, his no.1 is O & H. It might not even have been on his list before he knew of the affair, because he might have assumed it as a given, but I should think it is no.1. now. The problem is, even though you are being O & H, he won't let you meet that need. He won't allow himself to believe most of what you say about your intentions and feelings.

Your H can probably think back to how you did X with FOM on a particular day that he can remember, and he thinks about how he could not even tell that anything was off that day. You were able to lie convincingly and seemingly without conscience, and he knows you could be doing the same now.

I know because I am the same with my H. I don't treat him like your H is doing you just now, but I did send him off to work today after I ranted about how he wanted to go there to send emails to whomever, and talk to them. I haven't mentioned a word like this in nearly 18 months, and I did it today because, with our new kitchen in chaos, he could not find the new bag of porridge, to make it for me as he does every single morning. A trivial issue, but the affair affects everything. He announced angrily that he could not find the porridge and he had spent time cleaning up after my annoying son and the builder was due to arrive and he still hadn't had any breakfast and he was going. I shouted this at him because I felt like it. I do not know how he feels or what he really does when he's at work, and I never feel safe. He is lovely to me at home, for the most part, and yet I look at him and see a superb liar and abuser.

A need I see missing from your list is admiration and adoration. Again, I don't think your H will let you meet this need because he thinks you are faking and lying, but I would bet that he wants to feel adored. Finding out about your spouse's affair makes us feel so un-adored it's unreal. We want that now, but if your H feels like me, he does not trust your signs of adoration. Why would you adore him now if you didn't before?

Another I see missing is SF. I'd say the same thing about this. I can only imagine your H would love to have a fulfilling sex life with his wife. The trouble is again with the affair. When he rejects you, it's not that he does not have this need but that he does not want to show YOU adoration, passion and vulnerability, which we show during lovemaking. I feel the same quite often.

I can tell you how he might well feel, but I cannot tell you how to get him to let you meet his needs. Some of us BSs are contrary, stubborn beasts who will decline the chance of emotional intimacy rather than risk being hurt again. I'm one of the worst. I don't punish like your H does but I don't let my H in.

I've read this 4 times and have stewed on it overnight... I'm ready to tackle it now.

I feel this because some of our greatest knock-down, drag-outs over our years together have been about money. Because H was forced to become independent at an early age (he's been working since he was 15, moved out at 18, put himself through college), money is a big deal to him. I wanted to go back to school to become a teacher last fall and he said we couldn't afford me not working full-time while I did this. (H makes good money. We have a solid savings account. Of course this is my opinion, H doesn't think so.) H says IC is too expensive so unless insurance pays for part, I can't do it. And he makes a fuss when I spend over certain amounts.

It seems we talk about money every other day. This is why I picked FS. Perhaps it's not actually FS, but instead control. Anyway, that's why.

I think you're right in that currently, this is indeed his #1.

I know what it means.

I don't believe I've ever heard this comparison before so I first chuckled upon reading this. You made it work, though.

You're not giving your gender much credit. Yet, I will agree with you.

He wants me to look as I did in high school, when I weighed 115 and had a cute little jock bod. Or when I taught aerobics in my 20s. Or how I looked last summer after I had been working out for 6 months non-stop then pretty much quit eating due to trauma and stress and got down to 115 again. It's about the body, for H. He loves my eyes and my smile, but I'm certain about the physich. He's told me this directly -- that he is not attracted to me when I'm heavier.

So I do other things I know he likes. I'm wearing scented lotions every day -- stuff he's given me over the years. He loves my eyes so I put on mascarra almost every day even if I don't do the full make-up. He likes my hair long so I've kept it this way even though I prefer it short in the summertime. There are other things I know he likes and I try to keep those in mind. But the perfect L4 for him would be a size 2 and 120 pounds with bigger boobs. (I've agreed to do the surgery if he wants to spend our money on it.)

While this isn't a big one for me, I enjoy RC. I was a jock, I grew up on a farm, I love the outdoors... I can climb, throw, jump, swim, bowl, bike, mow, whatever. I like doing things with H.

Since D-day, H spends a lot more time with the kids. Not as much as I'd like, but I know the thought of splitting the family awakened in him his desire to be close with the kids and to have an intact family. If it wasn't for the kids, I'm pretty certain he would have left me. I say this because it's what he told me. This is why I picked FC. Maybe it's something else and I've misinterpretted his latest behaviors.

This screamed at me, Mark. I think the reason I've been so hesitant at getting back into great shape is because it too was something I worked so hard at during my A. I kept it up for a while after the A ended out of habit, but dropped it quickly when other important issues came to a head and haven't picked it back up with the ferver I had before. Even though I KNOW H wants me to be slim and hot, I've put minimal effort into it. And last night I think I uncovered two reasons why.

1.) Just like your wife, I don't want to look too good because H will be suspicious every time I step out to do anything. I don't want to give him any reason to doubt what I'm doing. As it is, when I put on make-up, he asks me who I'm putting it on for or where I'm going. I'll be going to my all-women book club with blush and lipstick on and he'll ask why I'm looking nice. I believe if I were to get back to a size 2, he'd be suspicious of me even when going to church. It's a defense mechanism on my part.

2.) The other reason isn't pretty and I'm ashamed to admit it here, but I will. <Deep breath> I think I'm testing my H. I want to know if he can really love me, even when I'm a size 10. (I've talked about this before on here. My concerns that if something were to happen to me physically that H would leave me.) I don't think appearance is that critical if you really love someone and I never have. I dated good-lookers and homely-lookers. Athletes and couch potatoes. Yes, it's great that H is handsome and I tell him often how attractive he is, but AS is not a deal-breaker for me. He's put on probably 20 pounds since we were married and I couldn't care less except for his general health. Adding to this attitude... (Putting on my armor here...) FOM approached me when I was near my heaviest. That made me believe that I could be attractive even when I wasn't slim, and made me feel I SHOULD be attractive to my spouse regardless of size. So in my mind, I believe I should be loved for more than my body, and if H doesn't want me because I weigh 150, then perhaps I shouldn't be with him.

I've learned a lot about the importance of AS here at MB. I know it IS a very real EN. I've learned this. But it's hard to break my own core beliefs about this. I'm trying to respect my H's wishes and I know I feel better when I look good too. But my body isn't obese and it's a lot of hard, tough work to get smaller and stay smaller. Otherwise I smell good, I'm okay to look at, I have great teeth, good skin... So why can't that be enough? (I know the answer to this. I'm being rhetorical.)

AS is a big thing for us. I know I could be sabbotaging our recovery because I'm not getting in an hour of exercise a day and eating cardboard, but I don't know how to get past these two roadblocks as they affect AS. I'll bring it up to my IC Tuesday.

I guess I need to re-think this. You don't know my H so it's impossible to know what his ENs are, but what do you think now, based on my answers?

I agree with you two now, too.

H sees the same when he looks at me.

You could be right here, SC. I do fulfill this, even if it's not one of his tops, because I want him to know that I need him. I tell him, I email him, I put it in cards, I tell him again... I tell him how much I admire/love/resepct the work he does for our family, how he maintains our home, how he smells, how he cares for his mother, how he attends our property like cars and boat, and many other things. I see your point and will have to move it up the list for his ENs. I'm confident I am meeting if not even exceeding this one.

I say this because this is how it's been for years. For the last 10 years or so, H generally approaches me for sex either when he's drunk or when it's 2:00am. And then it's grab the top, grab the lower, call that foreplay then let's go! I love SF, and these last few months when H and I have had it, it's been spectacular. But it's died down quickly and not because I haven't wanted it. I've initiated every encounter that we've had in the last month, and I've been turned down more often than I've been successful. After yesterday and last night, I've decided I'm not going to initiate it any more. Unless H gets drunk, I'll be surprised if we have SF again within the next month.

I have more questions about this I'll ask in another post.

I'd pay a million dollars if you could.

Thank you for being here, SC. Looks like I need to re-think his ENs. (Why won't he just take the ENQ?!)

L4,

I'll try to get back later to talk about this if I can. Right now I get interrupted often enough that I can't process what I want to say very well and rather than just throw something at you, it would be more productive to wait.

Mark

Especially on my thread, where you know how I feel about absolutes.

Absolutely...

Random things...

* H and I just got back from PAWS where we found a beautiful dog to maybe adopt. H is going back there with the kids tonight to see if they get along with her. I see it as a good commitment -- H purusing this since it's something we as a family have been talking about for a while.

* I won't be going with them because my friend from college is coming up for a conference this weekend and staying at our place. She and I are going to dinner tonight. I haven't seen her in 3 years and with H in classes from 8am - 6pm both Saturday and Sunday, it's a good time for her to come.

* Question about SF... I've been initiating -- subtle and blatant. H isn't accepting as often as I'd like. The last time was 10 days ago.

Monday night I crawled into bed. H reached over and did what he knows I don't care for -- grab the upper, grab below. No kisses or touches. But it had been a while and I thought, "Well, this is better than nothing." So I made moves to accept the gesture. H stopped then rolled over away from me. I asked what was wrong. He said, "I'm sorry. But I realized I'm too tired and don't want to afterall." Wasn't sure what to do with that.

Yesterday afternoon I told H I was really in the mood. As in really. H looked at me with a grin and said something completely unrelated back at me. He seemed ambivalent about it.

Last night I crawled into bed next to him topless and got very close to him. Nothing.

I'm not coming onto him all the time so I don't think I'm smothering him. And two months ago he seemed to love it when I would randomly show up in his office with a smile on my face.

This morning I decided I'll stop initiating because I don't know what else to do. I'm having problems feeling his love as it is and this additional rejection is beginning to take its toll. (I read on here about the men who are begging for SF from their wives -- doesn't seem to matter if the wives are BWs, WWs, or FWWs. I'm offering and getting fewer and fewer bites. And it hurts.

* H has been talking a lot about how he needs to quit his job. Been saying it for years, actually. Yesterday he came in and said his job is going to kill him. I told him, "Then quit. I've told you forever that a job isn't worth being unhappy and I've always meant that. It is not worth it. Please quit because I want you to be with us for many many years. We can cancel the family trip. We can cancel the concerts. We can sell the fishing boat, one of the cars, and even the house if it comes to it. I'll live in a small apartment, eat generic, canned food, and ride the bus if it means you'll be happier. Your stress is so not worth it, Honey. Please change it or learn how you can improve it. Because it's really hard to hear and see what you're going through." H thanked me for my support. I told him it is genunine. We can figure something out -- he only needs to say the word.

* I've been doing a lot of writing here about how hard this is and how H isn't giving me the reciprication I'm longing for. But my H isn't a bad guy. He has been nice these last two days and I know he's struggling with everything. Added that his job is about to kill him.

He has a great smile. He helps with the kids, getting up with them and doing their morning routine with them every weekday. He's great with our son and is getting more and more comfortable and loving with our little girl. He loves them both SO much and I love watching him with them. They think he hangs the moon.

He helps me with the groceries, he made me a drink the other night, he did all the spring planting last weekend, and he is always warm -- a little heater. He's a good dancer, he works hard for our family, and when he wants to play, he is so much fun. He is my husband. And I love him.

* I need to go buy a dog house and a carrier before my friend arrives.

Happy May Day, everyone.

Good job L4, I think I need to do a list of good things like you.

Hope you have a wonderful w/e

ST