I curious: How many of you are O&H with your spouses about this? Do they know that as soon as the kids are grown and graduated, you're out of there? Or are they as oblivious to your plans as you were to their A and you're just going to drop it on them one day? "I love you, but it's just not enough."

So, for whatever reason, how many of you are planning on staying married until _hell freezes over_and then going to D?

And for what reason are you staying married?

I question myself why do I want to stay with a WH who left us for the plastic pinata. He served me papers in January and I still chose to love him.

Why am I staying? I am staying because right now I still have faith. I read about some of these hopeless situations on this board that sometimes turn around. I want that to be us. I remember reading on another board about a wayward that was deep into his A and divorcing his wife and one day he looked at the other woman on vacation and thought WTH did I do. He came home 3 weeks later. Some days are dark for me. I question getting out of bed but I try to get past them.

I want my D15 to value her Dad again and let him become the hero he was to her. I know the only way that will happen is he comes home and makes amends with her.

It was not just a M lost by his A but a life, a family, values and trust.

For now I stand.

It is interesting that so many here know of kids that say their parents stayed together just for them and these kids either offed themselves or are a total wreck. If one looks objectively at controlled scientific studies (at least one ones that I have read) one will find, in most cases, that there is a statistically significant difference (calculated p-value) in outcomes between children from intact families and children from divorced families. And that difference is that the kids from divorced families fair far worse in almost every measurable metric: from drug use, to mental health issues, to school performance, college entrance and graduation rates. Kids from divorced families are far more likely to have premarital sex and become an teen parent, to go to prison, to be sexually molested by one's own parent's new partner. The list is endless.

The only subset of kids that actually do better after a divorce is when the conflict in the marital home is extreme: constant physical and emotional abuse.

For these reasons and many others I can see how people can put aside their own selfish needs to be “happy” and stay in a lacking marriage until the children reach the age of majority. Plus some make the decision that interacting with their kids everyday is worth putting up with a marriage that isn’t all that.

But what about my happiness? My children can't be "happy" unless I am happy, right?

Children care squat about their parent's happiness. As it should be.

Here is one brief look at divorce effects on kids.

An Exploration of the Ramifications of Divorce on Children and Adolescents
Sara Eleoff
The Pennsylvania State University College of Medicine
November 2003


Initial Reactions of Children to Divorce [3]
· Divorce is an intensely stressful experience for all children, regardless of age or developmental level; many children are inadequately prepared for the impending divorce by their parents. A study in 1980 found that less than 10% of children had support from adults other than relatives during the acute phase of the divorce.

· The pain experienced by children at the beginning of a divorce is composed of: a sense of vulnerability as the family disintegrates, a grief reaction to the loss of the intact family (many children do not realize their parents’ marriage is troubled), loss of the non-custodial parent, a feeling of intense anger as the disruption of the family, and strong feelings of powerlessness.

· Unlike bereavement or other stressful events, it is almost unique to divorcing families that as children experience the onset of this life change, usual and customary support systems tend to dissolve, though the ignorance or unwillingness of adults to actively seek out this support for children.


Developmental Considerations in the Response of Children [3]
· A major focus of the scholarly literature on divorce is the grouping of common reactions of children by age groups.

· Preschool (ages 3-5): These children are likely to exhibit a regression of the most recent developmental milestone achieved. Additionally, sleep disturbances and an exacerbated fear of separation from the custodial parent are common. There is usually a great deal of yearning for the non-custodial parent.

· Early latency (ages 6½-8): These children will often openly grieve for the departed parent. There is a noted preoccupation with fantasies that distinguishes the reactions of this age group. Children have replacement fantasies, or fantasies that their parents will happily reunite in the not-so-distant future. Children in this developmental stage have an especially difficult time with the concept of the permanence of the divorce.

· Late latency (ages 8-11): Anger and a feeling of powerlessness are the predominate emotional response in this age group. Like the other developmental stages, these children experience a grief reaction to the loss of their previously intact family. There is a greater tendency to label a ‘good’ parent and a ‘bad’ parent and these children are very susceptible to attempting to take care of a parent at the expense of their own needs.

· Adolescence (ages 12-18): Adolescents are prone to responding to their parent’s divorce with acute depression, suicidal ideation, and sometimes violent acting out episodes. These children tend to focus on the moral issues surrounding divorce and will often judge their parents’ decisions and actions. Many adolescents become anxious and fearful about their own future love and marital relationships. However, this age group has the capability to perceive integrity in the post-divorce relationship of their parents and to show compassion for their parents without neglecting their own needs.



Effects of Divorce on the Parent-Child Relationship
· Diminished parenting: In the wake of a divorce, most custodial mothers exhibit varying degrees of disorganization, anger, decreased expectations for appropriate social behavior of their children, and a reduction of the ability of parents to separate the child’s needs and actions from those of the adult. While diminished parenting is usually an expected short-term consequence of divorce; there is a serious potential for these changes to become chronic if a custodial parent does not reconstitute the relationship with the child or becomes involved in a new relationship which overwhelms the relationship with the child. [4]

· The overburdened child phenomena: approximately 15% of children interviewed at the 10 year follow-up point in a 15 year study showed significant effects from taking on the role of holding a custodial parent together psychologically. In a change that goes deeper than a simple reversal of the care-taker role, the child oftentimes becomes responsible for staving off depression and other threats to parent’s psychological functioning, at the cost of their own needs. [3]



The Impact of Paternal Involvement on Post-Divorce Children [2]
· When the divorce rate began to rise exponentially in the 1970s, it was thought that absence of paternal contact was a critical factor in the poor adaptation of some children to divorce. Several studies, including the National Survey of Children, have shown that paternal participation has a negligible effect, if any, on the well being of children (academics, behavioral problems, distress, and delinquency). However, it is important to note that there are several limiting factors in these studies (low overall level of paternal contact with children) and that the principle conclusion derived should be that increased paternal contact does not correlate to increases in positive outcomes.



Long-term Outcomes
· 10 and 15 year longitudinal studies show that divorce is not to be considered as an acute stress/crisis in the lives of children but rather, it is an event that can have long term consequences on psychosocial functional of children, adolescents, and young adults. The long-term outcomes of well-adjusted or poorly adjusted children draw heavily on the child’s post-divorce quality of life and on the post-divorce or remarried parent-child relationships.

· The most frequent delayed onset negative consequences center around anxieties and fear of the child that s/he will repeat the failed marital or love relationship that the child observed during the divorce. [4]

· Wallerstein’s ‘sleeper effect’ is a piquant example of the far-reaching effects of one such long-term consequence. Up to 66% of the women between 19-23 that were interviewed during 10 years post-divorce had a resurgence of anxiety, fear, guilt, and anger that they had suppressed for many years. These feelings tended to resurface when the adolescent and young adult women were attempting to make major life decisions (such as marriage). [3]



Conclusions
· Divorce and its ensuing ramifications can have a significant and life-altering impact on the well being and subsequent development of children and adolescents.
· The consequences of divorce impact almost all aspects of a child’s life, including the parent-child relationship, emotions and behavior, psychological development, and coping skills.

· There is a significant need for child mental health professionals, along with other child specialists, to be cognizant of the broad spectrum of possible fall-out from a divorce and then to provide sufficient support for children of divorced parents in all the necessary psychosocial aspects of the child’s life.



References
1. Hetherington EM. Furstenberg FF. Sounding the Alarm. Readings: A Journal of Review and Commentary in Mental Health. 6: 4-8, 1989.

2. Furstenberg FF. Morgan SP. Allison PD. Paternal Participation and Children’s Well-Being After Marital Dissolution. American Sociological Review. 52: 695-701, 1987.

3. Wallerstein, JS. Corbin SB. The Child and the Vicissitudes of Divorce.

4. Wallerstein, JS. Children After Divorce: Wounds That Don’t Heal. The Psychiatric Times: Medicine and Behavior. 8: 8-11, 1989.

I do not know about the rest but my H is aware of my plan i gave him a date quite a while ago.

And i do not think that i have harmed my children in any way. I told them all when we started recovery that it may not work out and that it has nothing to do with them and everything to do with if "i" could get over the betrayal. And i did not blame the betrayal all on their dad either. I do not want them to dislike their father.

I gave my H the deadline so that he knew where he stood, i on the other hand did not get that from him when he chose to have an affair.

And me and my H are still very much the same as we have always been, we still say ILY every day and kiss and hug and are just fine.

For me it is just the pain of betrayal. When your spouse (although he is remorseful and O&H and loving) does not feel the need to change their behavior then i am not willing to put my heart on the line again.

One more:

Myths About the Effects of Divorce on Children:
In the early 1970’s, Judith Wallerstein, began to study the effects of divorce on children. She studied a group of 131 children and their families who were going through the divorce process over a period of 25 years. In her book, The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce: A 25 Year Landmark Study, published in 2000, we learn that children really aren’t “resilient” and that divorce leaves children to struggle for a life-time with the residue of a decision their parents made.

According to Ms. Wallerstein, “If the truth be told, and if we are able to face it, the history of divorce in our society is replete with unwarranted assumptions that adults have made about children simply because such assumptions are congenial to adult needs and wishes. The myths that continue to guide our divorce policies and politics today stem from these direct attitudes.”

In other words we have become a society of adults who put their own needs and happiness before the emotional well-being of their children and justify it all by buying into the myth that children are resilient or time heals all wounds.

Myth #1: If Parents Are Happy Their Children Will be Happy Also :
I’m sure you have heard someone say that if they divorce and are able to lead a happier life that their children will be happier also. The idea behind this myth is that a happy mom or dad automatically means happy children.

People who use this justification are projecting their own feelings onto their children. They are objectifying their children out of a need to find happiness for themselves without having to feel responsible for causing their children emotional pain. They are failing to understand that, though they may be unhappy, their children are probably quite content and don’t care if their parents don’t get along as long as their family is together.

When you introduce a child to the world of divorce, you are altering every aspect of their life. That kind of change is hard to adjust to for adults. Imagine what it must be like for children who are not old enough to reason and intellectualize the situation?

Fact:

Children of divorce are more aggressive toward their parents and teachers. They experience more depression, more learning difficulties and problems getting along with their peers. They are three times more likely to be referred for psychological help. They become sexually active earlier, they are more likely to produce children out of wedlock and they are three times as likely to divorce themselves or to never marry.

A child’s happiness is not dependent on their parent’s happiness. A child’s happiness stems from routine, having a home, two parents, friends to play with, school activities to be involved in and being able to count on those things being constant day in and day out.

Myth #2: The Less Animosity And Bitterness The Less Trauma :
It is true that fighting and conflict exacerbate the trauma but there are those who believe that if they are able to get along then there children will suffer no lasting negative effects from the divorce. There seems to be a universal belief that the children will end up happy and content with their new life as long as the parents aren’t fighting.

Because of this belief, we focus on the process and not the aftermath of the process. We feel that our energy should be put toward making sure things run smoothly for the children during the process and once we are beyond that we don’t have to worry about any possible negative effects on our children.

Fact:

This misguided belief is not only harmful to our children but to the adults involved in the divorce process also. Divorce, at it’s best cannot be considered an amicable process. No matter how hard we try there will be bad feelings. Most divorces are not unilateral. One or the other parent is going to feel betrayed and hurt. Those feelings will trickle down to the children no matter how hard you try to conceal them. To think that all will be fine as long as the divorce process goes off without a hitch is unwise for all involved.

According to Ms. Wallerstein,”the parent’s anger at the time of the breakup is not what matters most. Unless there was violence or abuse or high conflict, a child has dim memories of what transpired during this supposedly critical period.” What was most painful and caused the most long-term negative effects for children is the sadness of their family breaking up, the anger they were not able to express, having to adjust to one parent no longer living in the home. The loss of control over activities because of forced visitation, the loss of two full-time parents in their lives, the sadness they feel around friends from intact families. The change in the economic status that all children experience when their parent’s divorce.

It is the aftermath of divorce, not the process of divorce that does our children the most harm. Don’t buy into the belief that once the process is over all will find a happy ending. Focus not only on the process but on what needs to be done after the process to help the children and adults move forward with as little emotional harm as possible.

So then, your marriage is one of a Fixed Term.

True, divorce is hard on kids & should be avoided & has lasting, negative effects. Personally I'm already seeing this IRL - BIG time.

However, with your mind made up, who are you doing a favor by prolonging the inevitable? This site is all about PLANS - plans that have timeframes & specific conditions. I don't think "7 years to go" is in any of them. Thus my major confusion. And yes, from what I've learned, these plans focus on ME - my sanity, my love being protected, my personal recovery. All while setting an example for my KIDS that I'm not going to tolerate this.

As for statistics, they ALSO show that the older the children are at the time of divorce, the harder it is on them. High school aged children being among those hit hardest. And in comparing broken homes to intact ones, it's a safe ASSumption that they do not take abuse, alcoholism/drug use, infedility, etc. into consideration like we're all dealing with. It may be there, but not a part of the study.

Wouldn't you agree that while your marriage is "intact" but you're not over the betrayal or your WS is still in contact or drinking or whathaveyou, your home is broken just the same??

Thanks for posting these studies. The only element missing (relevent to this discussion) would be the 19+ age group. If people really are waiting until their kids are finished school, this would be the group who would be impacted. I also know someone whose parents divorced after suffering a loveless marriage for many years when the kids left home. She says that she will never live like that, that her mom wasted the best years of her life and there was a shadow over the whole household. On the plus side, she has a wonderful marriage and seems to instinctively apply MB principals to it.

I'm curious as well because WXH moved out exactly 14 days before DS's 19th birthday. He wasn't living at home (at college) so the timing was similar to what folks here are talking about. The adolescent group described in the article has some elements that describe my DS's response but I wouldn't say he exactly fits in that group. Then again, because he wasn't living at home he was shielded from the "Jerry Springer" moments.

Well I have to agree with the info from comf. numb.

I wanted to stay together with my ExH, forgive the A, do whatever it took, so my kids wouldn't be another divorce statistic. I felt and still do, that kids should grow up with 2 parents in the home. There was no violence, abuse etc. We were having marital issues that I felt counseling could have helped. ExH thought an A was the way to go.

Anyway, when I brought this up with WH at the time, he said the kids will get over it. He said..."What am I supposed to do, be miserable in this M, so the kids can be happy?"

Yeah, now I am seeing the affects of the D on my kids...behavior problems etc. Do I think the kids are better off now that we are D'd? ABSOLUTEY NOT!!

Too bad more parents don't put their kids happiness before theirs.

Julie,

All marriages are on a Fixed Term. In my case either I will end it voluntarily, my wife will end it voluntarily or one of will die and it will be ended then. That is life.

In the vast majority of cases divorce hurts kids regardless of age. Do some reading for yourself. Perhaps you will come up with a different conclusion. If you are living your life to protect yourself, doing what makes you happy, keeping you sane, protecting your love or whatever, then that is your choice. But don't confuse what is best for you for what is best for your children. It isn't the same. Your children don’t care if you are happy. They will care if their world is shattered by divorce. Even if the divorce makes you fell better.

And no, a less than stellar marriage is not even close to a broken home on how it affects children.

Call it a trial separation then and see if you are all not happier, if not, move back after three months? Leaving doesn't have to mean PLAN D. Is that doable?

Cat,

If someone divorces you, you have no choice. For the people that have a choice and that have kids, I think they need to do some research on what the longterm effect on children from divorce really are. All because whe want to belive that "the kids will be just fine" doesn't make it so.

Your xH said: "What am I supposed to do, be miserable in this M, so the kids can be happy?"

A: Of course not. Let's find a way to make it so that we have a stellar marriage and our kids have both of us full time.

Why do people think that marriage is supposed to make them happy?

And this is the mentality that leads people to A. I'm going to cheat rather than be honorable and ask my spouse to separate so I can make sure "I'm happy in the M". I know having an A is much easier on the kids because he/she will NEVER go plan D because it will affect the kids. He/She(BETRAYED) will suck it up because they love the kids so much and don't want them in a broken home. Its a win-win. What a disaster, using kids as insurance policies.

Dude,

Yea that is exactly what I was saying. Wow.

Well, I certainly don't think that! Any BS left on the planet that does?

I have a plan - about two more years. And. yes, my plan puts the children first. It also minimizes financial impact on both of us.

The hard part, the guilt-making part, in this is knowing she isn't actually active in an affair - now. But I still don't want to be married to her any more. It was too much, too long, to all-around mean. I just plain don't want to spend my life with her any more.

Tell, her my plan? You have to be kidding. That would defeat the whole plan. Things would become less than optimum for everyone, even for her.

Besides, she most likley has OM to run back to even in two years. Or try to at least.

Interesting discussion.

I have a different, but related plan regarding D. If, after all the pain and all the hard work, FWH ever had an A again, he would be out the door instantly and that would be it. I have given this a great deal of thought and am resolved to take this course if (God forbid!) it should ever come to pass. It's the only way I can protect myself from the fear of living through this again.

Shortly after d-day, in conversations with MIL, she praised me for working so hard on the M for the sake of the kids. I told her that I absolutely was not doing it for the kids, but for me and H and our M. If the kids had been our primary focus, I don't think we could have come as far as we have. We were each doing it for ourselves and for each other. It's been almost 8 months since d-day, and our M is stronger than ever.

I am the child of parents whose divorce was caused by my father's infidelities. This was during a time when divorce was much less common. It was hell to live through and my brother and I experienced many of the problems mentioned in the articles. I survived, but had mild issues with relationships for years. My brother didn't fare nearly as well, unfortunately due to horrid parenting on the part of my father.

I'll say this, the RA did alleviate all the resentment seeminlgy felt above, and if WS was willing to take the return hit and still committ to the M, well, you see how things could begin to be rebuilt? But a fresh start, w/ a plan D, exposure, etc. Everyone shares in the pain. NO FREE PASSES...LIFE IS FAIR!

DUDE

Ap,

You have made a choice, and in my mind at least, a rational one.

Frankly I feel terrible for the families where the children don't care if their parents are happy. They are selfish and self-centered and will grow up to only care about their own happiness. Oh wait! That's already happened! Look at kids today - so many of them only care about THEMSELVES and what new toy they get.

I grew up sad because I saw that my Mom was miserable. My brothers and I asked her (and still do to this day) why she doesn't divorce our Dad. He's not physically abusive to her, but mentally. He's gotten better over the last couple years, but he is so wrapped up in his IBs that she's always left by herself and at his beck and call. Not to mention he's a drunk. She stays with him for us even though we pushed the other way, and she stays for religious reasons. I always cared about how she was feeling. She's one of my best-friends.

My FWH and his brothers wished their parents would have divorced when they were little. My MIL put up with a lot of abuse and a loveless M for most of her life. Now that my FIL has given up drinking and drugs, they are much better. FWH also cared about his Mom's happiness and wished she would take them and get out so they ALL could be happy.

I am doing my best to raise my daughter so she will not only love herself, but also care about those around her.