Chris - It sounds like you're doing the right thing, sad as it must be for you. I do feel for you. Thought you (and everyone) might be interested in the fact that there is such a thing as a legal annulment too. After my father died, I discovered (which I never had known because parents then kept this kind of thing secret) that my mother was actually his 2nd W. (Learned later that he was her 2nd H too, but that's another story.) Going through his papers, I even discovered the legal paperwork for his annulment decree. This had a description of the reason for the annulment, which was, apparently, that after the wedding his 1st W refused to "consummate" (as they used to say) the marriage. I know this is different for most people here, but wonder if anyone has considered a LEGAL (as opposed to religious) annulment as an alternative to divorce? My father's annulment happened in the 30's, back when divorce was still considered a major no-no, so may the annulment was a way around the stigma attached to divorce then.<P>I know in your case the religious annulment is in addition to your divorce. I found it interesting that you'd want to do this, since you're not a practicing Catholic. R & B,<P>--Wex

Chris:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> She even sent them both phone cards. I don't particularly want them to call her because it is his cell phone. I don't want them to even hear his voice & I don't want to either. Me & the kids don't know him or have ever met him.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I don’t blame you in the least. It’s too bad the guy has no soul. The sound of your eldest daughters voice when she called saying “I want to talk to my mom, you [censored]!” would have no effect on someone like that. <P>Unfortunately, it would have no effect on your W in her current state either. <BR>

I'm gonna go against the tide. Make the kids write their mother, and call her - if the psychologist says AOK.<P>Under divorcesource.com, there is a heading called Parental Alienation. I know you are not doing this whatsoever.<P>But, things can get so twisted and so turned, (Remember Coke vs. Pepsi????) One of the parts of alienation from one parent is when the child doesn't want to visit, you don't force them. Regardless if the motivation is to alienate the child from the parents, your wife's perspective may be that you are alienating the children.<P>We aren't talking a rational perspective, but it is possible. It may be hard for them to think about their mom, this is true, but forgetting about her has to be even more damaging. <P>TNT

Chris,<BR>I feel for you man, I do know what you are going thru.<P>I completely understand where you are coming from in regards to the kids speaking to the om as I was right there with you.<BR> <BR>HOWEVER<BR>What are you going to do after you get divorced and your w gets some visitation(assumption on my part). The kids will have to me om at some point and will probably have to stay with them(I don't know if you can stop her from visitation or have any kind of conditions on the visitation such as no man around).<P>I was hitting my head against the wall trying to keep this all from happening when a couselor asked me that question. Also what if w asks kids to come and live with her? Won't they eventually want to see their mother again?<P><BR>Sorry to be such a downer, I'm sure you thought of these evenualities too as you seem to be in touch with everything else.<P>I guess I'm suggesting that you have your kids call their mother. My w always would call when my kids were out running around and then not call back till they were in bed, so I started telling them to call their mother. <P>You know your position best, but kids do need their mother, they need to ahve that repore with her for the future.<P>Take care and God Bless!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> You know your position best, but kids do need their mother, they need to ahve that repore with her for the future.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><B>What</B> rapport? With what she’s doing to her relationship with her daughters, she’s going to be lucky to get a wedding <B> announcement</B> from them, let alone an invitation. Right now, the girls(and correct me if I’m wrong, Chris) don’t want to be reminded that she’s gone by talking to her. Pretty soon, they won’t WANT her to come back at all. Even if she does, and even if Chris has a wonderful marriage for all time, these kids are going to have <B>SERIOUS</B> abandonment issues for the rest of their lives.<P>Unfortunately, Chris... I can see the whole “pepsi vs. coke” argument TnT pointed out. She isn’t thinking rationally. It’s a tough situation, but what happens if you <B>do</B> make them call? “I didn’t want to talk to you, but Dad made me.” That ought to go over like a ton of bricks.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by WhoDat (edited October 20, 1999).]

WhoDat, you wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>It’s a tough situation, but what happens if you do make them call? “I didn’t want to talk to you, but Dad made me.” That ought to go over like a ton of bricks.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Then again, maybe that's exactly what she needs to hear? Think about it ...<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR>No, I'm not a Marriage Counselor,<BR>But I did sleep at a <BR>Holiday Inn Express last night...<BR>

Hi Chris -<P>I think that I have to agree with the last few posters....the girls should talk to their Mom.<P>It's not like they would be calling out of the blue....Donna's been trying to call...it's a courtesy to call her back...manners must still be taught!!<P>I know you don't want them to hear OM's voice....see what the counselor says about it - if anything you or a third party can call the number and when Donna is safely on the line....then they could talk.<P>You don't want them learning - well, Mom abandoned us so we should abandon her!!<P>Do ya? It's not a tit-for-tat kind of thing.......<P>They need to talk with her, even if they don't know it.<P>HUGS,<P>Sheba<P>This has me thinking that as much as we adults have this pain and anguish...imagine how the kids feel and add not knowing what it's all about on top of it......UGH!!<P>Lord, Have Mercy......<BR>

{{{{{{{{Chris}}}}}}}<BR>I know what tired feels like!<P>I make my daughter return his calls when he's away. Just like I make her call her grandma to thank her for a gift. But -- she's 5 years old. Your girls are older and fully capable of picking up the phone themselves. I don't think you should get in the middle of their relationship with their Mom. It's her job to maintain a relationship with them. It's not your job to make it happen. <P>Just be VERY careful that you aren't getting in the way, either. For example, be sure to tell them whenever she calls (write the message on the fridge if you like) so she can't accuse you of intercepting messages and not telling them. They shouldn't need phone cards -- I assume you aren't telling them they can't call because you won't pay for it! Or did she give them the phone cards so they can call from a pay phone? Basically you should do everything you can to facilitate them having contact, but not force it to happen. <P>On the other hand...<BR>I make a point of giving our daughter almost no choices when it comes to visiting or calling Daddy. Because I'm afraid if she feels like she has a choice it will be too much of a burden for her. <P>I would watch out for signs that your daughters are rejecting Mom out of loyalty to you. Much as it kills you, it might be important for them to know that you support them loving their Mom and wanting to have a relationship with her. Kids who have been rejected by one parent worry about losing the love of the other parent. So just make sure they know you will still love them regardless of the choices they make about their Mom. <P>Hang in there, Chris! Life has some happiness in store for you down the road.

Hi Chris,<P>I understand how tired you must be, its been a long time. I know you say your girls havent expressed much interest in calling your wife so how do they feel about you holding on. I'm sure they love their mother but must be pretty angry at her. You have shown yourself to be such a loving and devoted dad..do they want her to come back. I ask this because although I am the betrayed..I was also the child whose mom was betrayed and I felt very protective of her and when she took my stepdad back I was angry at her. BTW they went on to be very happy together but at the time I was afraid. Funny but at that time I was saying how could you take him back and she said you have never walked in my shoes...15 years later I was in those same shoes.<P> Magoskid

Chris,<P>You must be getting sick of me responding... but I have more $0.02<P>1. The title of the book on annulment is:<BR>ANNULMENT (Your chance to remarry within the Catholic Church (A Step-by-step guide Using the New Code of Canon Law)) ISBN:0-06-250990-X Harper & Row Publishers Author: Joseph P. Zwack<P>2. The pamphlet(booklet) I read which I thought was a very good "position document" I am still looking for.. my kids are keeping me up late with homework and a boat load of other stuff.<P>3. I <B>have</B> to agree with most of the last posts... You've got to get your daughters to talk with their mom. If you are serious about the divorce (as I was before I found the MB site) you will be hurt(legally) by allowing your daughters to say no. You don't have to twist their arms... but some encouragement (on your part) to "Love their enemies" (mom / OM) if they feel their mom is an enemy to them. This is hard... especially for you... since it means some kind of (preferably 3rd party coordinated) contact with your wife {<B>very</B> hard when you're Plan B-ing})<P>Chris... I'm praying for you.<P>Your journey unfortunately isn't near an end, even if you go for a divorce... (hard choice of fully/joint custody... stupid money matters... etc.) and definitely not if you go for a Catholic annulment.<P>Keep God and yourself in the front of your own mind and heart... other's(daughter(s) and wife) can't be helped if you don't "take the plank out of your own eye."<P>Jim<P>----------------<P>I can dare myself... I'll put a pebble in my shoe...<BR>I can walk... I can walk! I shall call the pebble Dare...<BR>Dare shall be carried... And when we both have had enough<BR>I will take him from my shoe, singing... "Meet your new road!"...<BR>Finally glad... Finally glad... That you are here... By my side...

Chris, you have always been there for me and I wish I could be there for you. Just can't find the right words to say. Except this really sucks. You have done all you could and on top of that been so strong for the girls. Its time to find something to make you happy. I know how hard it is. I have another meeting with my H next Monday, guess he is really anxious to get on with his life. Now if he would give me a clue as to how I am supposed to wrap up 21 yrs of memories and pack them away, so I can get on with mine.<BR><BR>Many hugs for you.

Uh oh! AAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH!<BR>I had a big reply to everyone, but it didn’t take. <P>I will try again tomorrow.<P>Needless to say, I am not pursuing divorce, but if it comes, I will be ready.<BR>Dr. Harley says two years is not too long to wait. I totally agree. It may be difficult and seem wacky to some, but essential to the healing process. Don’t know if I can wait that long, but I’m still going strong just like the energizer bunny <A HREF="http://bunny.energizer.com/coolstuff/" TARGET=_blank>http://bunny.energizer.com/coolstuff/</A> <P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html</A>

Chris,<P>I finally found that little booklet (pretty lengthy...77 pages! But well worth it!!! Found it just as I was cleaning off my bed... ready to lay down (alone) for the night!<P>It is called:<BR>"With Open Arms" (Catholics, Divorce & Remmariage) by John Hosie, S.M.<BR>Liguori Publications, ISBN: 0-89243-810-X, and it's cheap $3.95<BR>I think "bigger" Catholic book stores will carry it (probably not "Christian" bookstore though.) I'm not knocking Christian stores... I actually spend more time and $ there... they are soooo good too!<P>There is a great chapter on "Can a marriage die?"... If you want... I can post some excerpts... I should be buying a new scanner this week...(unfortunately my wife took the family scanner with her... and put it side by side with the OM's scanner in the apartment they share!) I can use the OCR software to do some of the posting.<P>SDS(di) also is inquizative on the topic...<BR>Do you think a thread with excerpts would be helpful? I know it is specific to Catholics (for the most part)... <P>Jim<P>-------------<BR>I can dare myself... I'll put a pebble in my shoe...<BR>I can walk... I can walk! I shall call the pebble Dare...<BR>Dare shall be carried... And when we both have had enough<BR>I will take him from my shoe, singing... "Meet your new road!"...<BR>Finally glad... Finally glad... That you are here... By my side...<p>[This message has been edited by NSR (edited October 21, 1999).]

Hmmm... thanks for the info Chris. While I don't consider myself a Catholic, I was raised Catholic (tho not practicing) and we were married in the Catholic church. Given that he had been chasing skirts for so long (and caught so many!) I probably shouldn't have a problem getting an annulment. Think I'll do just that.<P>What you wrote about your girls not showing any interest in talking to their mother really struck home. Just this morning I got a "talking to" from my stbx about how I have ruined his relationship with our oldest daughter by telling her about his "extracurricular" activities. Never mind she already knew and their relationship has been going downhill for many years. And he always said he would not lie to them. Oh how their stories change when the heat is on! Needless to say, he now blames ME for that. <P>It never ceases to amaze me how people can willingly and systematically destroy their lives and those of their family members and then have the gall to blame the ones they betrayed. Okay, so I'm really frustrated right now *grrrrrrr!*<P>------------------<BR>Bobbie<P>

Chris, just to clarify...<P>In no way do I want to be lumped into the group of folx who say you should MAKE your girls call their mom. I don’t think you should. But I <B>do</B> think you should let them know that their calling and talking to her IN NO WAY minimizes your love for them, and you would <B>not</B> consider it a betrayal on their part. It may well be that they are afraid of hurting you by having ANY contact with her. This fear may be magnified by her being gone; they may be so walking on eggshells around you because they think if they “hurt” you (which they wouldn’t), that you might leave.<P>ps: Type your posts into Word, then cut&paste. It not only saves my work, but helps with my absolutely atrocious spelling... <P>------------------<BR>Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die.

Okay, here's my big reply.<P><B>d&c</B>, I've held on by the grace of the Lord. I'm not in Plan B so poster boy?<P><B>Mom</B> , I've bought two guitars, I'm in karate, taking guitar lessons, get a professional massage every two weeks, built two websites, bough a new hard drive & video card for the 'pooter. I'm taking care of myself. It's just the hurt that goes along with it all. I mean she knew the guy for 5 months & left us! What a kook!<P><B>NSR</B>, Our relationship was fine before & after up until she split (or so I thought), so I don't think there any evidence it was wrong from the start. We did smoke a lot of pot before we got married though.<P><B>Wex</B>, I would do it for symbolic reasons. We got married in front of God, so why not dissolve it on front of God? Besides, if I wanted to get married again in the catholic church, I'd need an annulment. It's not a big deal to me, but if I met someone catholic. I would get married in a church again too, 'cause I believe a marriage is blessed by God.<P><B>RWD</B>, I could handle it if we get divorced, but until then, <B>there is absolutely no reason for them to interact with him in any way whatsoever</B>.<P><B>Sheba</B>, She did call last night. I was at the neibors house though, so I didn't talk to her. When they do talk to her, it is friendly & such. Also, they know EVERYTHING about what's going on. At least as much as I do. They have never asked Mom about anything about her leaving or her affair.<P><B>Annie</B>, I do tell them when she has called and they listen to the messages. I don't discourage them from calling her. They could use the phone if they wanted to. She must be feeling bad which is why she sent the phone card.<BR>I am watching them very closely to see if they have ANY reaction to her leaving. So far none. Nada. Zilch. Perhaps since she left & that she left town, they feel she doesn't need/want them.<P><B>magoskid</B>, I do tell them what is going on. I am waiting, she hasn't said anything about coming back, a divorce MAY happen. If I find out anything I will tell them. They need to know as much as I do.<P><B>NSR</B>, Jesus is my shield & my strength. I can't lose no matter what happens in the relationship!<P><B>ATW</B>, Thanks so much. I wish you well in your journey. Wish there was something I could do for you too.<P><B>Bobbie</B>, I did tell my Wife I would be honest about everything with the girls. She understands & accepts that.<P><B>whodat</B>, I am not going to MAKE them call her. If she was on her own, I think it would be totally different, but she left town! THey have to fell totally abandoned! I have told them they can talk to me about ANYTHING they want too. I am their father & I am there to help them in any way I can. <P>[b]To all/b],<BR>Thanks so much. It is extremely difficult at times, but the Lord is with me so it is easier.<P>Hey, if you haven't been to my Bible discussion forum, go check it out. It's a work in progress so if you have any ideas, let me know. <P>WARNING! Shameless plug ahead!<BR> <A HREF="http://server3.ezboard.com/bbiblestudy" TARGET=_blank>http://server3.ezboard.com/bbiblestudy</A> <P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html</A>

Chris, <P>I see that I am way late here but I've got $0.02 left in my pocket so what the hay.<P>I for one am totally amazed by your patience through all this. Sure you still have bad days but for the most part you have always kept you chin up. Very few men could take on the full responsibility of caring for their kids as you have and be successful at it. For that you are certainly commended for.<P>Only you will know when to toss in the towel. You have always had the Biblical right to give up and yet you haven't. If that loves has evaporated for her and you do choose to move on, then <B>BLESSED</B> is the lady that captures your heart again.<P>You're a good man Chris.<P>SHA