I think that the marriage of extraordinary care and PROTECTION can make a spouse believe the loyalty. If the WS shows protection consistently over a long period of time, I think that the feeling that they are loyal can return. I want to feel safe again. He must protect me from others and himself before I will ever feel safe with him again.

What did our WS do to show us prior to the A that they were gong to be 100% Loyal to us forever and ever as you put it.
Nothing.
We just went by actions and faith and built trust in them in the 1st place.
Now we have to find a way to do the same again but this time except we have to overcome the hurdle of their past breaking of that Loyalty chain.
I see it as being in AA. Will an alcholic not drink again for ever and ever? One day at the time.
I am starting to think of Loyalty as an endless string of one days as opposed to a large chunk of time until I dont have to think about it at all.

MF, I do understand what you are saying, and I am asking this with the utmost respect.... How can MF's FWH Meet this said EN of loyalty?

IMVHO, EN's must have the ability to be met.

What I mean is, what statements can YOU make that allow FWH to meet this EN? I love it when__________ or I would love it if________ types of statements.

MF,

It sounds like what you really want is 100% assurance that Mr. MF will always put your first. But no one will ever be able to give you that. 100% assurance is just not attainable.

So what do you do? Two things:

1. Keep doing the MB stuff and educating yourselves about relationships, which definitely decreases the probability of breakdown. So while you won't get 100%, you might get 98-99% assurance.

2. Have a real plan to cover you for that remaining 1-2% of doubt. Clearly identify to yourself what you will not tolerate and what you will do if Mr.MF resorts to the intolerable. Make sure you have the resources (financial) available to you, should you need to choose the "nuclear option." (A post-nup might be useful here.) And make sure you have the inner resources to know you would survive a worst-case scenario like this. If you don't feel now that you would survive such a circumstance, start working with a counselor now to get stronger.

Bottom line: Reduce your risk as much as possible, and have a plan in place for surviving in the face of unlikely disaster. While you can't get 100% assurance of your husband's behavior, you can achieve 100% assurance that you'll be fine no matter what.

I have given him some of the token "phrases" that will help here, but as we all know...once you have TOLD someone what you need to hear, the impact is diminished because he did not do this on his own.

And I don't have any desire to be married to a robot, one who only says kind things because I told him it would be nice to hear them. KWIM?

I know that this may take time, we were told it could take up to a year for men to learn what to say and HOW to say certain things. I'm just not sure what will have happened to my LB in that year...

curious...we have done a post-nup, so that isn't an issue. I know I will be ok if we D.

But after all our children have been through, I REALLY, REALLY do not want to put them through a D also. I know I would survive a D, I just don't want to do that to our kids, and deep down I don't really want a D either.

We had a really great relationship at one time...if I think back, I can still feel those "butterflies" in my stomach, and it makes me very sad to think that could be gone. That is why I am trying to figure out what is going on with this loyalty EN of mine...

I agree MF, it just makes it not the same if you have to tell them what to do or say.

My H does not tell me what to do to make him feel protected.

I hear you beacuse thats how I used to feel too.
But let me ask you this
Is it more important that he do what you need or is it more important that he be a mind reader?
I have spent the 1st half of my life living under the notion that romance means never having to say it, the other person can reach deep into your soul and see exactly what you need and deliver it when you need and cue the doves and cue the music......
Once you anwer the question of whats more important then perhaps you might start to see that communicating what you need ( I might need something different in that phrase than you do) does not diminish what is given. It may eventually sweeten the deal when you start to see that you H loves you enough to give you exactly what you need.
Now if a mind reader is what you need.....

I don't want a mind reader, I DO want someone who is capable of saying the things I need to hear with the RIGHT tone of voice and for the RIGHT reasons (ie, he feels them too).

I could be wrong, but I suspect that he doesn't like to say exactly what I need to hear because he then feels "controlled" and he has big issues with that.

Again, I could be wrong, but this is what I suspect could be part of the issue...

I’ve been thinking about this all day long and I have several thoughts.

I had to think about this from a standpoint of being an employer and having employees that I consider to be loyal. What is it that made them loyal? The simple answer is, it was several years of service doing an exemplary job.

I don’t think about them being loyal at all until a length of time passes. In my case, I have several employees with more than 10 years of service, and I now consider them to be loyal because of the length of time they’ve devoted to the company. They’ve been with me through some good and prosperous times, but also through some very difficult ones, and have shown themselves to be loyal because of this.

I’m just using this example to help me think this through.

I’m realizing that loyalty is either a 0 or a 10; your either loyal or you’re not. There are no degrees of loyalty in a marriage.

When someone has an A, they demonstrate they are not loyal. It may take several years (?) of “exemplary” behavior to be seen as loyal once again. In the meantime, the difficult thing for the FWS to understand is that their disloyalty withdrew every last “loyalty” love bank deposit from the BS’s account, and until they have enough time invested in providing continued care and protection of their spouse, they will remain in the red on that EN.

It’s all about time. The only way that MF’s FWH can meet this need is by meeting all the other ENs and by choosing to protect his wife through his EPs for a LONG PERIOD OF TIME.

It is the LENGTH OF TIME that reestablishes loyalty. Now, that length of time may be different for each BS. But it will take years for them to consider their spouse loyal.

In your particular situation, with false recoveries, lack of boundaries, and such a diminished level of care on several occasions while in recovery, your length of time may be very long. But if he is consistent in protection and care, I believe you will eventually consider him loyal again.

I just think that you may be expecting him to meet this need in some way, and he may be trying to figure out how to meet this need in some way, and the only magic formula is time.

Great post, tst! I concur...

Mrs. W

This is a great topic and it had me thinking all night as well. I think that tst absolutely nailed it! The answers really never change though do they? It will happen through the consistent meeting of ENs, strong EPs and TIME! That's really all you can do. You can't force it to happen. It will happen little by little with each reassurance that you are safe to let down your guard. Which if you think about it, that was how it developed in the first place. Consistency, over a long period of time.

Want2Stay

While i agree with tst and W2S, what happens if the WS is not consistent and does not have strong EPs in place?

IMO the love bank for "loyalty" doesn't even open for business until consistency & strong EP's have been in place for a number of years..... The BS fills in the blank as to how many years that actually takes.

I'm begining to believe that the BS may not even be able to answer how many years it will take. It don't think they are being fickle or difficult about it. I just don't believe a tangable number, nor an estimate in time can be handed out on this one. Only after that magical point in time (yet to be determined) will the BS's love bank for "Loyalty" accept deposits.

excellent thread!

This IS a great topic. My DH's disloyalty to me was one of my biggest hurts while he was gone. We had been through so much together and had been each other's confidant for so many years. If we couldn't tell others how we were feeling about a situation, we always knew we could tell each other. We turned to each other when it seemed no one else understood. My DH took some of those confidences and shared them with OW. He placed me lower in the ranking of who was important in his life, where before I'd always been at the top of the list.

It was one of the hardest parts of recovery for me. As time has passed, that loyalty has returned. How do I know? Several times over the course of the last few years, DH has made the statement to others, without knowing that I was within earshot, "my wife comes first". He's told me when we were POJAing about important decisions, "if this isn't what you want, then I won't do it, because, next to my relationship with God, you are more important to me than ____ (fill in the blank).

It takes a long, long time to restore the description of "loyal" to a FWH. It is something that is earned, not bequeathed. I've never lost that with my DH when he thinks of me. He's told me before that he's grateful that I was so loyal and that he knows if there is one person on earth he KNOWS he can turn to, it is me. I couldn't always say that about him, but I can now.

Will it last? No one can say that with any surety. A lot goes into the development of character that is required by loyalty but it can be ripped away in a moment. I believe it will because of circumstances in our lives right now.

After 32 years of marriage, I've come to believe that the fire in our lives can either strengthen and mold the loyalty or it can bend and break it. Being prepared for the fire will help. I see Dr. Harley's methods as preparing for any fire that comes along.

Wow, tst...excellent response and I believe you hit the nail on the head.

And I agree that this could quite possibly be a long haul for me, for several reasons:

1.) this IS my #1 EN right now, and what I need to feel in order for my LB to be filled. You are correct in that with the "false recoveries, lack of boundaries, and such a diminished level of care on several occasions while in recovery", right now I have a very hard time even IMAGINING feeling like my EN of "loyalty" is being met.

2.) Without this #1 need being met, I have a serious problem with being motivated to meet his top needs. It isn't that I am consciously deciding NOT to meet them, just that it doesn't occur to me. We do a lot of RC together, SF is fine, but I know I am missing the mark in some areas. Affection and Admiration are top needs for him and i struggle with those. I need to work better at "faking it till I make it". It's tough sometimes.

3.) Without LOYALTY, the other ENs he is meeting don't mean nearly as much, and this is frustrating and hard for him. He doesn't quite understand this, or why all that he is doing NOW isn't ending my numbness and withdrawal.

I'm a "do-er", so just waiting for time to pass is very hard for me. I feel sad, frustrated and hurt because we have been at this for SO long, and I am so tired of feeling numb and anxious.

I completely agree with this. I have a very real, deep fear that (as I said before), all it takes is for some desperate OW to come along and feign the same interests and his loyalty to me crumbles in an instant.

Consistency in our recovery has been non-existant, until the past 6 months or so. And after having my heart ripped out time and time again, it just isn't as open to him meeting my ENs anymore.

Very sad, actually, because up until then I was putting my heart and soul into our recovery. But without loyalty, my motivation has diminished.

This is awesome, pm, and gave me goosebumps when I read it!

While I agree with this post and think it is an excellent point Im not sure that it is an simple as this.

Disloyalty in marriage to me means character weakness. While Dr Harley and others state that an affair can happen to anyone, I believe that affairs are less likely to occur in those that have the concept of loyalty deeply enmeshed in their character.

All the time in the world wont necessarily alter someone's character *unless* that person has self awareness and motivation to do so.

Take Mrs. W, for instance. The thought of her affair baffles her - it doesnt seem possible that she could have done such a thing. I believe it is fundamentally because there has been a major shift in her character.

In MF's case ( and also my own because I can very much relate to her fears) - she isnt convinced that her FWS has enough awareness of himself to make these changes in him. This would relate specifically to the change in his character .

Does that require time, or something deeper specifically?