She's said many times that this is the way the M has always been, she's been unhappy the whole time, and if she could, she would go back and never marry him in the first place.

This sounds hopeful to me.

Don't kick your [censored]. If you changed your mind back off on the agreement. If this is how you really feel then stick to your original commitment.

Things change. You no longer agree.

My goodness don’t everyone respond at once LOL!!! I will try to get to all of them.


We have always spent all of our time together (except when the ENIL lived with us and during the A) when we are not at work. That is one reason how I knew right away when the A began and that it was still going on after he supposedly stopped it.

We do different things, during the work week it is either going to our son’s baseball game or maybe running errands together or just hanging out at home. On the weekends we spend all of our time together and we usually do outdoor things (like Frisbee golf or hiking or a walk in the park or camping) and we usually have a date night going out for dinner or drinks or just enjoying the lovely downtown area that we have.

He does meet many of my ENs and according to him I meet all of his (because he does not talk about anything and never has).

The part that is missing is extraordinary precautions and extraordinary care.



I agree with all of this except that I do not know one way or another if he CAN do the work necessary because we can not get that far to discuss what I need for him to do. His response to me when I ask “how can I know it won’t happen again” is that “he knows himself and he knows he won’t ever do that again”.




Well you can see part of my response to ST and I do agree that he has done next to nothing. And I also agree that he has a wayward mindset but only in the fact that he does not see the need for boundaries because “he knows himself”.

And a lot of that is because he will not talk about anything with me. Then I get frustrated and then he gets defensive and we can never really have a good conversation about things.

I wonder a lot of times if maybe this is because we did have such a good relationship before (even though there are things he has done through out our M that I did not like) and we did not have to “talk about” our relationship, it just was.

So now that I want to talk about things all the time he just looks at it as though I am talking about the affair not the relationship and that is why he gets defensive. I don’t know.

I am making this choice for ME not him. And it is because I love him, he is a good provider, he is a good father, he is a good friend, and right now I am still not ready to throw away 25 years of my life.




CP I know that you are trying to protect me but I am positive that he is not currently wayward.

And that is interesting about the word “[censored]” I really only used it because I thought “[censored]” would get censored LOL!!!






Thanks SS2 and I will do what is best for me and my family I promise. I just worry that backing down on this date will set us back instead of moving us forward but it is a chance I had to take.

At least I did not say that we were “good” r whatever, he does know that there is still more work that needs to be done, it is just communicating to one another what that work is that will be the hard part.




Yes I have posted that many times and it still technically holds true in the fact that “if I knew the pain he would cause me with his betrayal” I would not have married him in the first place.

The reason I say that is because there are things that my H has always done that I considered “selfish” but I chose to ignore them because I had those rose colored glasses on for far too long. Now that the glasses are off I see these “selfish” things far more clearly and wonder if I somehow contributed to that “selfishness” or is it just naturally him.

Does not change the fact that I did marry him and that I still love him and that we do get along well and are passionate and there are lots of other good things about our M.

I just think this betrayal hit me so hard that I am still just reeling from it even 2 and half years later.




I do not know for sure how I feel right now. All I know is that I am not ready to give it all up yet.

And I am scared that I have just given him more reason to NOT change.

Remember the recent thread calling out to people that were two years post d-day? It seemed that most were not recovered by the 2 year mark. Many didn't feel recovered for 3, 4 or more years. Don't apologize for not wanting to end your marriage. There is nothing wrong with giving yourself more time to heal.

I am married to a basically selfish man also. I also see the selfish behavior much more clearly post affair. I think he has always been that way and I didn't really pay attention until his selfishness caused me pain. He was reading the basic concepts here one day and said, "I think I am more of a taker than a giver". (Duh). My husband will talk about things when we are getting along and he feels warm and fuzzy but he seldom brings up relationship talk. He completely shuts down when he feels attacked or angry. I have seen many improvements. I am working on my part and he is doing more things for me as well. I'm watching him wash my car right now. My point is, I am working for improvements. I don't expect my husband to change overnight. I don't even need him to change all that much. I fell in love with a slightly selfish man that didn't talk all that much about his feelings. I do want him to protect me and consider my feelings. I want him to care about how his actions will affect me. Most of the time he does. The better I control my responses to him, the nicer he is. So, for me, I am focusing on what I can change and leaving the rest to God. But I am like you, I couldn't leave him right now. I want to grow old with this man.

1. You say all the time how you would never let that happen. Is he supposed to believe you?

2. My FWH says this, but since he did explain his thinking during the A, I understand that he means that he was in he// during that time and was completely miserable. He doesn't understand why he stuck with it even though he was miserable, but thinking of the addiction that Dr. Harley explains, it makes sense. Most alcoholics/drug addicts hate their drug of choice, but they can't seem to shake it. Maybe like mine, your FWH absolutely hated that time and would never want to do that to you or HIMSELF ever again.

As for knowing too much about the other women in the office: Do you work with women? I have and I know how chatty and gossipy they are. Most of them are always blabbing about their lives to anyone that will listen. Maybe its that your H has to sit and listen to this all day, and not even be part of the conversation. OR he feels that if he doesn't contribute in some way, they'll be offended and start getting catty making his job a horrible place to be.

My FWH works with two women who are constantly trying to get his input on their problems or just won't stop talking period. He never gives them input, but he still has to listen since they sit near him.

Have you considered that its a very good sign that he tells you what he's heard throughout the day and he shares the details of his work day with you? It might not be what you want to hear, but at least he isn't hiding it all from you.

I have a question for you: If you asked your H to fill an EN of his and he said it was silly or immature and refused to do it, how would that make you feel? Would you hesitate to ask for any other EN's to be met because of his reaction?

OK, the current tone of this is making me feel much better about your situation Still_crazy - I was very concerned but you and SS2 and drgnfly have shone a different kind of light.

I just wish he could give you more. BTW do you make a note and tell him when he does something or says something you really like or if he does something that makes you feel secure?

The other thing with the other women in the office: Does he ever comment that they compliment him on anything? I used to make a point of telling my H if a man had said something nice to me.


ST
ST

I feel pretty much the same way about my H. I guess i just figured that after this long it would be better but maybe i do just still have to give him time to change. I don't know butb i too would PREFER to grow old with him still by my side.

Do you have a taker?

You have been talking for months about leaving on June 1st if he doesn't change.

Then, in your negotiations with him you extend it to some future date(what is the new date) by him simply asking. One of the first rules of negotiation is that if you give up something you get something in return.


Even more important, you are clearly not enthusiastic about it. You failed to implement the POJA by negotiating your side into a new agreement. Where is your taker? Why are your fears and anxieties ruling you?

It sounds like you have extended the time for more of the same because you are dependent on your H and have no other real support system. It sounds like you are scared and develop alot of anxiety and to deal with those feelings you depend on the security your H gives you. Unfortunately it addresses these feelings short term but it isn't a long term solution so this will continue to haunt you.

Your June 1 date was your date to show your strength and commitment to your personal recovery. You won't ever recover personally as long as you don't feel safe in the marriage. You can blame him all you want but your personal recovery from this is really all about you and your weaknesses and you addressing these weaknesses.

Most men do not care for dependent women and vice versa.

Have you used the past months to develop a better support system?

How do you deal with your anxiety?

How are you insuring your taker is considered and why are you not insuring you are enthusiastic in your agreements?

Have you taken any steps to understand how growing up in an alcoholic family has played an important role in your and your H's lives?

Yes I do say this all the time and I think he is supposed to believe me because I follow EPs, he does not.


This is actually what my FWH says as well. However it seems that Skald has put EPs in place to help you feel more “secure”, my FWH has not.


I do work with women and we talk all the time and I know a lot about all of them (personal stuff). My problem with him talking to the women in his office is twofold. First off they are not located in the same office; he is in an office with him and another man that has a door and everything and it is located down the hall quite a ways from where the women are located. The only interaction he HAS TO HAVE with the women is when he goes to their office to turn in his paperwork that they enter into the computer.

So I have no problem with him speaking to the women, however if you are not in the same office as them and you are just making small talk do you really need to know where they live?


I have considered that and it is why I do not say anything to him about it. That still does not make me feel any more comfortable because I feel that he really does not need to “carry on a conversation” with them. There is nothing wrong with being polite but there is no need to “chat” with members of the opposite sex


This happens all the time and I do not like it.

I do not tell him any of his ENs are silly and I do not think I have ever refused to do or not do something that he told me was bothering him.

I always try to give him hugs and kisses and go really crazy when he does something that makes me feel secure.

See my comment to drgnfly regarding the other women in the office.

You say that your H doesn't tell you what his ENs are, so you don't know if you're really doing what he wants.

On another thread about being attractive, you said that he asked you to shave, but you went on and on about how silly and immature you think that is and refuse to do that.

If he came out and asked you to do something as simple as shaving, but you refuse, why would he try to express his other ENs?

I did shave for him at first but told him i did not like it and he said it was not that big of a deal anyway so i have not done it again and i did not tell him i thought it was strange, i told him that i did not like it when it grew back.

I would not dismiss his ENs as stupid or childish.

He does that to me however, if i express something it is "my problem", not his.

I do not have a taker at all.


Totally agree!!!! I do not think it is that I am dependent on my H as much as I do not know anything different. I went from my parent’s home to living with my H.

I am not afraid that I can not make it on my own, heck I depend on myself for most things as it is, it is that I am afraid that if I give up and leave there will be no returning and what if I am making the wrong decision and my H truly is the one for me.

My H and I both have basically already said once I leave we do not think there is any going back.


I agree again!!! And these are my weaknesses for my personal recovery but I think it is the only way to even think about marital recovery and even though I said I was leaving and giving up, I am not ready yet. Maybe out of fear, maybe out of dependency, maybe out of I don’t know what.


I am not a dependent woman, I am very independent and I think sometimes my H does not feel needed because I do things for myself, I do not ask him to do them for me.

For instance I can think of 2 separate occasions when I had a flat tire. The first time I was a t a grocery store and I came out and the tire was flat, I got out my jack and jacked up the car and tried to loosen the lug nuts but they were too tight and I could not get them loose. So I called my H and told him that I could not loosen the lug nuts and could he come and help me (which is what anyone I would think would typically do), after he yelled at me for having a flat tire he asked me if I could find someone there to loosen them for me so he did not have to come there.

I told him fine and hung up on him and did exactly what eh told me to do, I asked some gentleman who walked out of the store with his wife to help and he did and I was able to change the tire and I went home. When I got there my H was gone, he was gone for a while and finally came home and yelled at me again wanting to know why I left the store because he went there to help me.

The second time he did come and help me but yelled at me the whole time so I have gotten to the point where I help myself by either using AAA or someone else. And it is that way for other things as well; I just do not ask him for his help.


I do not think I need a support system, I have my family and my friends who will all help me if I need it.


I am currently just taking anti-depressants and that is about it.


I do not have a taker and like I said before it is not that I am not enthusiastic about it, I am scared I have given him more opportunity to do nothing.



I have not!!!

An electric razor gets close without the razor bumps and irritation. It is a daily thing though. It gets too itchy if it grows out and is too scratchy too. They make personal shavers for every bit of the area that cannot nick you.

Is it possible that he doesn't like the way that you ask for help or to talk? A lot of my husbands problems with me are not about the actual topic that we are discussing but the way that I present it to him. If he feels judged or criticized at all, he gets upset. Just wondering if that is a possibility.

If you have no taker, why does any of this matter to you?

It must make you an enabler. Why do you enable your H?

People who are selfish are very unhappy people. And people who enable them to be even more selfish make them even more unhappy. The last thing they need is someone who enables them.


So, why don't you try and learn something different? Why do you just give up?

A support system would help you greatly. It would help you see a different way.

And, because you don't know anything different makes you dependent on him. You are scared to leave because your security will be gone and you have no support system.

Isn't that right?

Is your taker coming out yet?


Maybe your marriage could recover if you recovered. The other option is to just ignore or be very out of touch with your feelings.


Yes you are. There is a big difference between being capable of being independent to actually being dependent. You are scared that your support system will be gone. It makes you crazy and you stay to soothe those feelings. But it is only a short term strategy and those things bubble right back up to the surface. A never ending cycle.


What a great marriage this is.


You need there help. Hopefully they know a different way otherwise they are only a part of the support system you need.


Your anxiety is controlling your life. There is a reason for all of this anxiety. There is a reason you say you don't even know how you feel about all of this.

Your feelings about all of this are so important.


You have a taker. You are ignoring it. It is how you have learned to cope.

You are not enthusiastic. How can you be enthusiastic and then feel like you need to kick your own [censored] for agreeing to it? Your enthusiastic is called reluctant agreement. You can't figure out any other option and so you agree and call it enthusiastic because it is better than the other option.

Where is your taker hiding? What do we need to do to make sure you bring it to the table so you can be represented?


I know. And I hope that by me saying it over and over that it brings out your taker!

He may not be wayward, but he is MOST DEFINITELY ENTITLED.

HE WILL DO WHAT HE WANTS, BECAUSE HE KNOWS YOU WILL NOT LEAVE HIM.

What extraordinary precautions has he taken to make YOU feel safe? If you can't list any, then he still only cares about himself.

Please reread this. It is very important!