You need to reread this whole answer. It is full of holes!

Are you a Taker or a Giver? Do you know the difference? Do you realize that if you are a full-blown Giver, that you are screwing yourself? Why on earth would your husband EVER respect you, if you can't respect yourself enough to be even somewhat of a Taker?

Do you know what any of this even means?

This it TOTAL Giver. It is time to grow up and do the adult thing - which includes your Taker.

I realize that both of you are correct.

However i do not think i was born with a taker, i have always let people take advantage of me not just my H.

How do you grow one?

PS I am not trying to be a smart [censored] on this.

FWIW i have left him before in the beginning of our M (at around the 7 or 8 year mark). He made changes and i went back home.

And you are also both correct in that my H will never win a "husband of the year" contest, however he is not some ogre either.

I do have more respect for myself than that, he really is a good person, he is just pretty ***ked up in the head.

Sure he is very selfish in a lot of ways but he is also very giving in others. And is truly a kind hearted person.

I assure you that i know plenty of women whose H's are FAR worse than mine in many ways.

One other thing, i care because i know down deep in my heart i will never try love again in my life.

So if i can't make it work with what i have then it is not going to happen.

SC, when you read this how do you feel? What emotions do you feel inside?


I think we all have a taker. You demonstrated in the past that you have a taker. You left your H before.

For some reason, you often make very broad over generalizations like when you say "always". It almost seems like a way to not address the issue. To avoid facing it as it is less painful.

You also are expressing doubt about yourself or that you are somehow defective since you were "not born with it".

SC, over the months of communicating with you and reading your thread you tend to beat yourself up or that you are bad. Is this right? What do you tell yourself about you? How do you label yourself?


You have a taker. I think it would be wise for you to become aware of what is causing your problems.

Are you ready to realize that by not having your taker represent you in your latest agreement with your H about not moving out on June 1 that you created a new agreement that you are not enthusiastic with? Do you see how you are a big part of the problem? Do you see that you will never personally recover until your taker participates and becomes enthusiastic and that the same vicious cycle will continue?

If you see this as a problem behavior, then getting in touch with your feelings and becoming aware of why you choose to ignore your taker. Why you have become detached from your feelings. Awareness is your first step.

What do you want to change?
What keeps you from making this change?
What help do you need in order to make this change?
What do you need?
What are you going to do to get that need met?


One other thing I have noticed about you is that you tend to discount things as a way to cope. We all need coping mechanisms but I hope you see how discounting paralyzes you to indecision.

You discount the problem. You discount its significance. You discount that the problem can be solved. And you discount your feelings and your own capability.

This leads you to being indirect or a passive approach to your life.


Think about what you are really saying to yourself here. How self defeating this is. How hopeless. Just leads to more indecision and indecision is really a decision.

SC, you have alot of value. You have so many strengths and great things about you just like all the rest of us. You have the power and ability to come out of this on the other side a stronger and happier person. Don't let this defeat you.

I hope you really think about this. I hope you take the time to understand your anxiety. I hope you learn via meditation or relaxation techniques or visualization or whatever works for you some way to deal with the anxiety so you can "hear" your feelings and then trust your feelings and then let your taker become a part of the solution.

If you can do this, then renegotiate that new agreement so you are enthusiastic.

Great post, TJD! SC, please print it out and read it every day.

btw, have you read The Dance of Anger? It's a short book, quick read, that gives you a lot of ammunition and incentive to make changes.

I do not have a lot of time to post and will probably not be around much over the next week or so but did want to comment on a couple of things (we have auditors here at work all next week).

As far as how I feel about what CP said about “growing up” it did not bother me. I know all of you say that it is a bad thing to not have both giver and taker; I do not see it that way. And I also know that you all are only trying to help me.

It really makes me happy to do things for others and I would not like it if I had too much taker in me, it is not who I am or who I want to be.

I really do not want to change myself, I am happy with me (at least the me I was before the A). I want to change my marriage, I am not happy with it. I know that means I need to make some changes in me to accomplish that and the first one is to get rid of my anger about this whole mess. And you say to get in touch with my taker.

I am trying to understand him better so that I can communicate better with him so that he has a chance to try to change (since he will not talk about things) so that I can make a well informed decision as to whether I can continue to live with him as he is or go forward without him.

Once I finally got across the point (after 25 years) of how much it bothered me about his “friendliness” when we go out he INSTANTLY stopped doing it and has stuck with it.

And when I left him long ago I once again had finally got my point across to him and he made changes INSTANTLY and stuck with them.

I have lots more to say but no time to say it. I will post again when I have a chance.

SC, here is another example of how growing up in an alcoholic family has effected you.

It is called all or nothing thinking. This isn't the first time you have demonstrated this kind of thinking. You see things as black and white - there is no middle ground.

You see yourself, SC, as a giver and not a taker. You are either good or you are bad. You are either perfect or a complete failure. You are either a good mom or a bad mom.

SC, there are more than 2 options. Things aren't as rigid as you see them. It isn't about shame, or blame, or being perfect.

It makes you feel bad if you feel you are a taker, doesn't it? And if you are a taker that means you have feelings. And because you aren't a taker your feelings have no value. And when you have no value you have little to no self worth. Isn't that right? And if this is right then you are wrong and that means you are bad and there is something wrong with you.

I'll tell you right now there is no law that says you can't feel. Having feelings is a part of being human. It doesn't make you bad it makes you human.

I ask you again.

Does not having a taker help your marriage or hinder it?

Does not having a taker help your personal recovery or hinder it?

Is you saying you don't have a taker a reality based statement?

Do things really need to be all or nothing? I'm 100% a giver and 0% a taker. Can't there be percentages? Can't there be a middle ground?

There is no shame in having a balanced giver and taker.

Let your shame and guilt go.

Did your husband treat you differently when you were dating and first married? Would he yell at you when you asked for help then too? Did you treat him differently?

You have mentioned the knowledge that you husband has of the women at work. I realize that he works in a different office than the women. I don't want to minimize your concern but it seems that your personality and your husbands are very different. He is telling you about his interactions with the other women. Can you encourage him through casual conversation to let you know how he receives this information about the women in the office? Maybe they join a group of men while on break. You husband doesn't stay in his office the entire time he is at work. Most people get bored and do seek out conversation during breaks. He may not be seeking out the women. They may be joining in on conversation.

What EPs do you want from your husband? What have you asked him to do for you that he hasn't done?

I don't believe that you can change your husband with ultimatums or demands. I do believe that you can change your own behavior by eliminating lovebusters and meeting his needs. I believe your husband may respond more positively if you approach him more positively. If he doesn't feel safe because he thinks you are leaving it will be a cloud over your marriage. If you are not sure that you want to leave, I would stop threatening it. I don't believe that makes you a doormat. I think that your husband may see it as manipulative if you threaten to leave. I feel that divorce talk is a serious lovebuster. I would stop talking divorce and do everything that you can build up his lovebank and make him feel safe with you. If you are the best wife that you can be and decide 6 months from now or 5 years from now that it just isn't worth it, then I would move out. Talking about it while you still love and want to remain married to your husband - even if it is not a perfect marriage seems unfair and very counter-productive.

Not really he has always been that way. I did not need help so I guess he never yelled because it did not happen. I do not think I treated him differently but I guess that would be a question that he would have to answer.


He is only in the office for about an hour in the morning and an hour in the afternoon. His job is actually out on different construction sites all day long.

Like I said he does his paper work in HIS office and turns it into the women in the other office and they enter it into a computer system. There really is no reason at all for him to know personal information about them.

Like I said I have worked with the men in my office for 12 years and we are all in an office setting all day long and I do not know as much about them as he does the women in his office and he has only been there 1 year and is only in the office a couple of hours a day.


First and foremost I need for him to understand that he has “boundary” issues. He does not see anything wrong with talking to the women in the office. I on the other do see something wrong in just “chatting” with members of the opposite sex at all however especially since he has had an affair. I think that answers both of your questions.


I have not even mentioned the word divorce as I do not plan on getting a divorce even if we end up separating. He will have to be the one who files for divorce and I try not to use it as a LB even though I am sure it still is one.

I tell him that if I can not get over the affair and start trusting him then it is not fair to either of us to continue to live together. I am miserable because I don’t trust him and he is miserable because I don’t trust him. What kind of life is that for either of us?

He just tells me that he is okay with whatever decision I make until he asked me last week to stay until we have to leave the house (and we do not know when that will be).

And I have been the best wife I can be, I may not have met his ENs while the ENIL lived at our house, it was because my H chose to be in the “man cave” with the ENIL instead of being with his wife and family so I feel that even then it was his choice to not have his needs met. I simply had one request and that was for the ENIL to leave and he was there for three and half years.

Now we have the same marriage we had for the first 20 years exactly you could not tell a difference. And he talked to women all the time then too so I know if he does not see his weaknesses when it comes to other women I know it will eventually happen again and I am not willing to give him back my heart to break again unless he is willing to admit he has boundary issues and works on them.

So we are kind of stuck because we see the “chatting” differently. He says it is friendliness, I say it is flirtiness.

Sorry but on this one I think you are incorrect. As I said before my dad had a couple of drinks every night and my mom did not drink at all. I do not believe my dad’s drinking had any effect on me whatsoever I did not even know he drank until I was old enough to even know what alcohol was and by then he was no longer drinking.


This too is not true although most things in life are either black or white there is not much gray area.

I do not think I am a complete failure at anything. I guess here on the written page I must appear differently than I really am. I am happy with me, I KNOW I am a great mother even though I have made mistakes, I KNOW I have been a great wife even though I have made mistakes, I KNOW I was a great daughter, I KNOW I am a great sibling, and a great friend and a great person.

What I don’t know is how my H sees me as a woman and that is important to me so it bothers me if I do not think that HE sees me as the same thing.



I do feel selfish when I use my taker however I have not ever felt that I have no self worth, the things I post here are how I think my H sees me, not how I see myself. And because of how I think my H sees me I get angry. He says things and acts like he views me differently when he realizes he said something that made me feel that he does not think I am “beautiful” or “attractive” or “desirable” whatever term you would like to use, but he will say that something anyway without thinking about how it will effect me.


I personally do not think it hurts my marriage.


I do think it has hindered my personal recovery, however if I want my personal recovery to be to remain married then it has not in that sense.


I am not 100% giver and 0% taker, I do not use my taker very often because I do not feel the need to use it, and I bring it out if it is necessary but I have not felt it necessary to many times in my life.

I think that women are usually much more chatty than men.
I understand how you feel but it sounds like you want to educate your husband and demand that he change which is a disrespectful judgement and a selfish demand which are lovebusters. I understand that his personal knowledge of these women causes you unhappiness. Can you negotiate POJA something that will be agreeable to both of you? What specifically can he do?

It is probably both. I don't think it is productive to argue over what to call it. It makes you unhappy so it needs to stop. How? He has to talk to these women at work. It is hard not to know what is going on with some people that are too open. It may be partly your husband but it is partly them too because they are divulging the information. It would be worse if he stopped telling you. He is being honest. You don't want to discourage that. Have you brainstormed with your husband possible solutions. Agree to disagree whether it is right or wrong. That is not the point. The point is that it causes you unhappiness. What can he/you do to make this better?

We have agreed to disagree on this issue for far too long and it is what lead us to where we are right now.

So maybe it is a DJ and maybe it is an LB but i do not care, it is non-negotionable to me. I feel he does not need to "chat" with other women period. I do not "chat" with other men and i expect him to not do it as well. Especially if he has to go out of his way to "chat" with them and since he had an affair.

Why are you apologizing?

Yes, this is that whole my dad was an alcoholic, my husband's dad is an alcoholic, my husband is an alcoholic thing but it has no effect on us.

Kinda along the same analogy of Bill Clinton's it depends on what the definition of "it" is. It just depends on how it suits you.

Great example of you on one hand saying they are alcoholics and then minimizing it. Funny how you continually do that.


What????? I'm wrong but of course things are mostly black and white.

I would call this denial.


So you are saying that you extending the agreement with your H and not being enthusiastic about it is helpful to your marriage?

Then why do you continue to be the victim and complain about him not putting in place EP's. You taker said nothing. Didn't negotiate. Didn't search for an enthusiastic agreement. You simply said yes and now are saying it is helpful that you did that because you are still married. But no EP's are very helpful to your marriage as well though you like to complain about it.

It is all his fault. I hope that makes you feel better.

I do not think i am minimizing it, i truly do not believe it had an effect on me whatsoever.

I belive my dad was an alcoholic because he drank everyday, i do not believe it effected our relationship at all. My mother who was not the drinker was the one who i had a worse realtionship with and i still had a great relationship with her.

I had to be my mom's driver because she did not have her license and my dad was always at work. How would you like spending your entire weekend at an auction buying things or a flea market selling things when you were 16, 17, and 18 years old? It was not fun.

My dad and i would go places together all the time (because mom did not want to go) and we would have a great time, he was an awesome dad and i do not think he did anything bad to my physche by drinking at all.


IMHO things are mainly black and white in the real world.


Yes because i am still there to work on it, if i leave how can i work on it. I am not saying it is the perfect solution because it is not, however i have to be there for either of us to make any changes, i will not go back.

When i leave i will leave knowing that i did everything that "i' thought possible to try to get past all of this and forgive my H. If it does not come to that by the time i have "had enough" then i know that it never will so i will not return.


I am trying to get other ways to get through to him that he needs EPs in place, he does not think that he does need them.

And i am not trying to make it all out to be his fault. At least that is not my intent if that is how i come across. It is no one's fault really. We see it differently and i can no longer "live with it" since he had an affair. He knows where i stand and i just keep hoping that some time i will get through to him how important it is to me and he will change.

Like i said it took him 25 years to quit "being friendly" when we went out in public, i will not give him another 25 to figure out that he needs to extend that to his every day life, but i am going to give him some more time.

I don't think that you are wrong. I don't think that your husband is wrong either, necessarily. I think that EPs need to be in place because you are unhappy. You want to have a marriage of extraordinary care and protection. EPs are there to protect you and help you feel safe - not because your husband needs them. He may not. You do.

I know that you don't want to negotiate this point. The alternative is to selfishly demand what you want and then disrespectfully judge him when he doesn't do what you want him to do. Your taker is the one that won't negotiate this point. Your taker wants what it wants. The only productive alternative is to thoughfully negotiate and try to persuade your husband. Here is the guidelines for successful negotiation:


Four Guidelines for Successful Negotiation
Let's begin with the assumption that you and your spouse do not agree about something. It may be about how to meet an unmet need, or about a overcoming a thoughtless habit that is bothering one of you. In fact, it may be about anything that has become a conflict.

Chances are that you have been responding to this issue in one of three ways: 1) ignoring your own feelings and doing it your spouse's way, 2) ignoring your spouse's feelings and doing it your way, or 3) ignoring the problem entirely. Negotiation, however, requires something very different--taking your feelings and the feelings of your spouse into account simultaneously. The following guidelines will help you achieve that very important objective:

Guideline 1: Set ground rules to make negotiation pleasant and safe.

Most couples view negotiation as a trip to the torture chamber. That's because their efforts are usually fruitless, and they come away from the experience battered and bruised. Who wants to negotiate when you have nothing but disappointment and pain to look forward to?

So before you begin to negotiate, set some basic ground rules to make sure that you both enjoy the experience. Why? Because you repeat activities that you like, and avoid those you don't like. Since you should negotiate as often as a conflict arises, it should always be an enjoyable experience so you make it a regular part of your married life.

To be certain that you will have a pleasant and safe negotiating environment, I suggest three ground rules.


Ground Rule #1:
Try to be pleasant and cheerful throughout negotiations
It's fairly easy to start discussing an issue while in a good mood. But negotiations can open a can of worms, so be prepared for negative emotional reactions. Your spouse may begin to feel uncomfortable about something you say. In fact, out of the clear blue, he or she may inform you that there will be no further discussion.

I know how upset and defensive couples can become when they first tell each other how they feel about they way they have been treated by each other. That's why I first coach them individually to prepare them for negative comments. I simply tell them what I am telling you--try to be as positive and cheerful as you can be, especially if your spouse says something that offends you.


Ground Rule #2:
Put safety first-do not make demands, show disrespect,
or become angry when you negotiate, even if your spouse
makes demands, shows disrespect, or becomes angry with you
Once the cat is out of the bag and you have told each other what is bothering you or what you want, you have entered one of the most dangerous phases of negotiation. If your feelings have been hurt, you are tempted to retaliate. Your Taker is very persuasive at this point, and unless you make a special effort to resist its advice, your negotiation will turn into an argument. But if you can keep each other safe, you will be able to use your intelligence to help you make the changes you both need.


Ground Rule #3:
If you reach an impasse where you do not seem to be
getting anywhere, or if one of you is starting
to make demands, show disrespect, or become angry,
stop negotiating and come back to the issue later.
Just because you can't resolve a problem at a particular point in time doesn't mean you can't find an intelligent solution in the future. Don't let an impasse prevent you from giving yourself a chance to think about the issue. Let it incubate for a while, and you'll be amazed what your mind can do.

If your negotiation turns sour, and one of you succumbs to the temptation of the Taker with demands, disrespect or anger, end the discussion by changing the subject to something more pleasant. After a brief pause, your spouse may apologize and wish to return to the subject that was so upsetting. But don't go back into the minefield until it has been swept clear of mines. The mines, of course, are demands, disrespect and anger, and you must discuss how to avoid them before you return to the issue. You can't negotiate if your Takers' destructive instincts control your discussion.

Guideline 2: Identify the problem from both perspectives.

Once you have set ground rules that guarantee a safe and enjoyable discussion, you are ready to negotiate. But where do you begin? First, you must understand the problem from the perspectives of both you and your spouse.

Most couples go into marital negotiation without doing their homework. They don't fully understand the conflict itself, nor do they understand each other's perspectives. In many cases, they are not even sure what they really want.

One of the responsibilities of a marriage counselor is to help couples clarify the issues that separate them. I'm amazed at how often the clarification itself solves the problem. "Oh, that's what we've been fighting about!" many couples say. And once they understand the issue and each other's opinions, they realize that the conflict is not as serious as they thought. Or when the issue is clarified, the solution is immediately apparent and the conflict is resolved.

Respect is the key to success in this phase of negotiation. Once the issue has been identified, and you hear each other's perspectives, it is extremely important to understand each other--not try to straighten each other out. Remember that your goal is enthusiastic agreement, and there is no way you will be enthusiastic if you reject each other's perspectives. In fact, the only way you will reach an enthusiastic agreement is if you not only understand each other, but also come up with a solution that accommodates each other's perspectives.

It's so much easier to negotiate the right way when your goal is enthusiastic agreement. It eliminates all the strategies that attempt to wear each other down with abuse. You may as well forget about demands because they never lead to an enthusiastic agreement. The same can be said for disrespectful judgments and angry outbursts. If you are looking for real solutions to your problem, you will find them in whatever yields an enthusiastic agreement.

But when I take demands, disrespect and anger away from some couples, they are left feeling naked. They don't know how to discuss an issue if they can't demand, show disrespect or express their anger. And without those Love Busters they often feel hopeless about resolving their problems, because they have rarely approached their problems with the goal of finding a win-win solution. And they simply don't know how to do it. It's as if the only way they know how to communicate in marriage is through demands, disrespect and anger. Is that true of you and your spouse?

If so, remember that with practice you will begin to feel more comfortable approaching every conflict with the goal of mutual agreement. You learn to ask each other questions, not to embarrass each other but to gain a fuller understanding of what it would take to make each other happy. And when you think you have the information you need to consider win-win solutions, you are ready for the next step.

Guideline 3: Brainstorm with abandon.

You've set the ground rules. You've identified the problem from each other's perspective. Now you're ready for the creative part--looking for solutions that you think will make you both happy. I know that can seem impossible if you and your spouse have drifted into incompatibility. But the climb back to Intimacy has to start somewhere, and if you put your minds to it, you'll think of options that please you both.

The secret to understanding your spouse is to think like your spouse's Taker. It's easy to appeal to your spouse's Giver. "If she really loves me, she'll let me do this." or "He'll be thoughtful enough to agree with that, I'm sure." But lasting peace must be forged with your spouse's Taker, so your solutions must appeal to your spouse's most selfish instincts. At the same time, it must also appeal to your own selfish instincts.

When you brainstorm, quantity is often more important than quality. Let your minds run wild; go with just about any thought that might satisfy both of your Takers. If you let your creative side run free, you are more likely to find a lasting solution.

Carry a pad of paper or a pocket notebook, with you so you can write down ideas as you think of them throughout the day. Some problems may require days of thought, and pages of ideas. But keep in mind your goal-a solution that would appeal to both of your Takers.

Resist one type of solution that your Giver and Taker may suggest the "I'll let you do what you want this time if you let me do what I want next time" solution. For example, imagine that you want to go out with your friends after work, leaving your spouse with the children. So to arrive at an enthusiastic agreement for that thoughtless activity, you suggest that you take the children another night so that your spouse can go out with his or her friends.

What you're really proposing here is that each of you will sacrifice so that the other can have fun. The problem with that arrangement is that you are agreeing to behavior that makes one of you unhappy whenever the other is happy, and as I've said earlier, once you have made an agreement, it can easily turn into a habit.

The Giver and Taker suggest those kinds of win-lose solutions because they don't understand win-win solutions. Their concept of fairness is that if you are both suffering equally, that's fair. My view of negotiation is that by the time you are finished you should have arrived at a solution where neither of you suffers. And each part of the solution should not require either of you to sacrifice so that the other can be happy.

Guideline 4: Choose the solution that meets the conditions of the Policy of Joint Agreement -- mutual and enthusiastic agreement.

After brainstorming, you will have come up with some good and some bad solutions. Now you need to sort through them. Good solutions are those both you and your spouse consider desirable. In other words they meet the conditions of the Policy of Joint Agreement. Bad solutions, on the other hand, only take the feelings of one spouse into account at the expense of the other. The best solution is the one that makes you and your spouse most enthusiastic.

Many problems are relatively easy to solve. You will be amazed at how quickly you can find an enthusiastic agreement to some problems when you have decided to hold off on any action until you both agree. That's because when you know you must take each other's feelings into account, you become increasingly aware of what it will take to reach a mutual agreement. Instead of considering options that are clearly not in your spouse's best interest, you reject them immediately and begin to think of options you know would make both you and your spouse happy. It's amazing how smart you can be when you direct your mind to find smart solutions.

For example, consider the situation we mentioned above. You would like to go out with your friends after work, leaving your spouse with the children. Before you had agreed to the Policy of Joint Agreement, you may have simply called your spouse to say you would be late, or worse yet, arrived home late without having called. But now, you must come to an enthusiastic agreement prior to the event. It certainly restricts your freedom of choice, but on the other hand, it protects your spouse from your thoughtless behavior.

After having presented your case, you would probably hear immediate objections. Your spouse might feel that he or she does not appreciate your having fun while he or she is home battling the kids. "Besides," your spouse might mention, "our leisure activities should be with each other." In response, you might suggest that your spouse drop the kids off at your parents' (which you will call to make the arrangements) and join you.

If you and your spouse can enthusiastically agree on that suggestion, you are home free. Your parents take your children for a couple of hours, and your spouse joins you wherever it was you were planning to meet your friends. Problem solved. In fact, if going out after work with friends becomes a regular event, you can plan ahead for it by arranging the child-care in advance.

Of course, other problems can be very difficult to solve, involving many steps. Learning how to meet each other's emotional needs, for example, can require quite a bit of trial and error, along with the time and energy it takes to create the habits that eventually make meeting a need almost effortless. If one of you struggles with an addiction, you will find that the Policy of Joint Agreement simply cannot be followed at all until you have overcome the addiction. Whether it's drugs, alcohol, sex, gambling, or any other addiction, you will find that thoughtfulness is almost impossible to practice as long as you are addicted. You must sweep the addiction completely out of your life before you will be able to negotiate in the way I have suggested.

When a couple has tried to follow my advice, but can't seem to negotiate with each other regardless of how hard they try, addiction is usually the culprit. In fact, a good way to determine if you are addicted to a substance or activity is to see if you can follow the Policy of Joint Agreement after you have agreed to it. If you find you can't, chances are, you're an addict.If you follow the guidelines I have suggested, negotiation can be an enjoyable way to learn about each other. And if you avoid unpleasant scenes and negotiate to an enthusiastic agreement, you can resolve with relative ease all of the many conflicts you will have throughout life.

One last point: Whenever a conflict arises, keep in mind the importance of depositing as many love units as possible while avoiding withdrawals. In other words, use the opportunity to find a solution that will make your spouse happy, and avoid solutions that make either of you unhappy

Saying someone is an alcoholic is not something to be taken lightly. On one had you say your dad is an alcoholic and then you trivialize it.

What about the effect your H's fathers alcoholism has on your family? What about the effect of your H's alcoholism has on your family?


So, you went places with your mom and you hated it and you went places with your dad and loved it.

Sounds like your mom was dependant on her H like you are with yours.

Also sounds like you follow your H like you did with your dad. Your H has interests and you tag along and you like it because it is fun and gives you an identity.



So, why didn't you say that in the first place. This is a circular pattern with you just like with the alcoholism.

You give examples, I state you see things as black and white and no middle ground, you say no I'm not right I don't see them that way, I challenge you, and then you say IMHO things are mainly black and white in the real world.

That is indirect communication.

Well SC, I think your "real world" is based on your perceptions and you make sure things fit in black and white categories so there is a sense of control and stability for you.

The "real world" is seen in many different ways. There are %'s to many things. I challenge you to see things in different ways and from other points of view.



So, instead of focussing on the black and white, leaving or not leaving, why don't you focus on the agreement you changed with your H. Why don't you negotiate that agreement to one you are enthusiastic about? There is a middle ground.


I find no issue with you needing him to get EP's in place.

Those are your needs.

Your taker is there to make sure you are taken care of.

You ignore your taker in negotiating with your H. You agreed to a new agreement without even insuring your taker would be enthusiastic about it and insuring the new agreement addressed your needs for EP's so you could be enthusiastic about it.

Instead, you have another thing to complain to him about and blame him for. It is his behavior. And you allow him to do it.

I'd be kicking myself in the [censored] too.


I can understand that is not your intent.

However, you have stated you don't want to change and don't have to. You want him to change. That makes it all his fault and none of yours.

I think you need to change. I think you need to learn how to negotiate. I think you need to challenge your thinking.

Maybe i am the one who needs them. Do you think your FWH needs to have EPs in place to make you feel safe?

By not having EPs in place to begin with is how he had an affair, he was just "being friendly" with the FOW and she took his friendliness as flirtiness (the same way i see and as other women who have flirted back with him while i am sitting right there sees it too) and pursued the issue and he went for it because i was not meeting his needs at home because the ENIL was still living there.


This is one thing i will not negotiate period. If he does not put this EP into place i will not stay married to him. I have had my feelings hurt too many times by his "friendliness" i will not negotiate this!!!!

So yes i get mad at him because he does not do it and yes i do not make him do it, but i try with everything i have to try to make him see how it bothers me and how important it is to me and for him to change for that reason if nothing else.

And you really really need to learn about alcoholism. If he drank enough that you noticed it, it was too much.

The other aspect of this is that you tried to replace your mother. Children of alcoholics do this all the time. It is very unhealthy. And you grow up and repeat it in your marriage.

You don't think it affected you because you absorbed the dysfunctionality into your soul as the 'right' way to do things, so as to get along and not go crazy.

This isn't about your dad, and whether or not he was a good guy. It's about your NOW view of what a male and female should be in a relationship. Read up on ACoA. Visit Alanon. Do something to look into this. If so many people are seeing it, it's a good chance there's something here to see.

And once you do, you could learn to circumvent it and have the happy marriage you want.