I've posted here several times in the past. Things will go well for stretches of time, usually several weeks at a time then something will upset BH (this time it was that we were out shopping and I brought up that we needed to go home and let the dog out). Things like this will set off a 2-3 day fight usually ending in him saying he wants to be with other women and wants to end things with me. I tell him this is not what I want and that I love him and want to work on making our relationship better and fixing what I've done. I know he has the right to leave me for what I've done and I will respect his decision if that's what he chooses but I sincerely hope he doesn't. He never takes any action beyond just telling me he wants to have sex with other women and that he is not happy with me anymore. Then things will kind of just slip back into the pattern of going well for a few weeks again.

I feel complete anguish over my A. I think about it every day, I agonize over what could have compelled me to do it. I am completely disgusted with myself. I hate myself for hurting him and for destroying our relationship. I am really trying to be a better wife.

Every time we have an argument he tells me how selfish, childish, and spoiled I am and I agree with him, I deserve to be told those things because that is the way I acted. But when he says something disrespectful or mean and I tell him that, he says he doesn't care and that I need to learn to deal with it because it doesn't happen very often. He says I expect perfection from him because I get upset when he says hurtful things to me. I usually get upset and cry when we fight because the things he says are so true and I wish I wasn't this monster who was capable of what I did but then he says my crying is because I feel sorry for myself and that I have no empathy for the pain he is in.

I ask him what I can do to make him happy. He says he's not going to tell me and that's for me to figure out. I get that to a degree. I know I need to meet his top ENs. I always ask his input in decisions we make because I know my IB was a problem in the past. It's hard though because when things are going well and I ask him if he wants to do X, he will act enthusiastic about it or sometimes he will even suggest that we do X, but then when we get in an argument he brings up X as an example of how he sacrifices for me. Otherwise, I feel like I do a pretty good job except for SF. However, I am trying on that and he rejects my efforts and seems to not be interested anymore. He says it makes him feel bad to be with me in that way. He also says I am not doing anything to make him unhappy right now but that he just cannot get over both the A and the choices I made after the A re: my job.

He says we should go to counseling but he insists that it be someone local. He says someone needs to be able to look at my face and see my lack of remorse. I would prefer to do phone counseling with SH (we have had several sessions in the past) but he is against it and says I only prefer that because MB is understanding of the WS. I just am afraid of randomly choosing a counselor and having them do more harm than good. I have researched counselors extensively in our area and have not been able to find a pro-marriage counselor or even recommendations about counselors at all.

I am ordering the home study course today. I am hopeful that we can try that together and that will help get us on the right track.

Does anyone have any suggestions or insights of what I can do?

I think you should do the one thing he tells you he wants - a MC. No matter what YOU think is going to happen. If it helps him by seeing you willing to go, it will help the marriage. You can supplement it, but you should not be balking at this.

Call them up and ask them for references of some sort. Tell them your concerns and ask them about what will happen.

Just saying no is setting your marriage back.

I never told him no, for the record, I just expressed my concern about getting with a counselor who will do more harm than good. From everything I've read a bad marriage counselor can do a lot of harm and since we are in a very fragile state, I am concerned about that. But you are right, it's important that I do what he wants so I just called to set up an appointment with a local counselor and will ask some questions when she calls back.

I would really love/welcome any comments or suggestions anyone has about my situation. I never seem to word my posts in a way that get much feeback but I am really in need of some advice.

Find the counselors in the area that embrace MB principles. Go to one of them.

I have not been able to find a counselor in my area using MB principles. I called the MB office and they did not have one to recommend and I also searched the web unsuccessfully.

Ruth,

There is a thread over in Recovery by Looking4, who is agonizing over the exact same issues as you, and she is having basically the same lack of success.

Both of you seem to be desperately trying to FIX that which YOU BROKE, but the problem is that both of you waited tooooo long or the betrayal was toooo great, and your window of opportunity has closed (or is rapidly closing) due to your BH's indifference. Your actions KILLED his spirit and he is now just existing in a form of marital limbo hell.

In both of your posts, I read a lot of "its still all about ME, ME, ME", and why won't BH just come along now that YOUR ready to work on the M. Unfortunately, your actions during the A and the fallout from his discovery of them have left him confused and now INDIFFERENT towards you or your needs.

We see a lot of BH's who are paralyzed by the fear of their WW's potential reactions to the BH's attempts to break up the A and save the M ... and I think your case(s) are similar, but opposite ... in that, your BH's don't want the M to continue, but are paralyed by their fear of the unknown of D. Its just opposing sides of the same WW AFFAIR coin.

Just because YOU now want to save this M, doesn't mean that your BH sees anything worth saving, but is unwilling to pull the trigger on D himself, so he salves his wounds with venom, secretly hoping that you will leave on your own accord.

I don't have any advice, just an observation of what your BH is likely experiencing.

MyRev,

You're right, I am trying to fix what I broke, and I know that it's his call to make whether he wants to go along for the ride.

I am not mad at him or upset with him for not being ready. In fact, last fall I made a very similar post to this one. My BH at that time told me he wasn't interested in working on the M and based on advice I received here, I let it go and let him have space.

So what am I supposed to do? If I express that I want to work on things, does that mean I'm being selfish. Isn't not trying to make amends and not fighting for the M after what I did equally bad?

If what you're saying is correct and he really just wants out of the relationship but can't bring himself to do it, is the right thing for me to do to give him what he wants?

I have one word for you PRO-ACTIVE.
You have to put your feelings on the back burner now. Your husband is hurting badly and as men we do not deal with emotion well. we either go extremely postal or we go inward or both. We are not vocal so we do not express our feelings very well. Most of the time we will say something that cuts to your heart because ours is bleeding.

In essence you have ripped your husband's heart out, smashed it with a sledge hammer and gave it back to him on a platter.
He is not overly concern about how you are feeling because he believes you did not care about his by your actions. So everything he is saying to you reflects that. Like you crying because you feel sorry for yourself and not recognizing his pain.

You appear to be waiting on him to decide how this reconciliation will go, but it was you who did the damage so you must do most of the heavy lifting to repair it if he wants to continue.
Be transparent,keep being open and honest, answer his questions truthfully. When you see him drifting off and you know he is thinking about the affair, apologize..show remorse.

For some men infidelity of any rate is an instant deal breaker. He may be done and just a little shaky at starting the journey into divorce. this is your best time right now to win him back.

When he is being disrespectful..let him know that you realize that he is pain and that yes I deserve some of the things you say,but I am working on not being that person anymore. Saying things like "Please don't disrespect me" (Although he should not be) will get you blasted like a runaway scud missle, because he has been disrespected.

I truly hope you can recover, but it's going to take a lot of action on your part

Like I said, I don't have any advice. Sometimes you just have to recognize the situation for what it is ... nothing more ... nothing less.

It still amazes me what some people will SETTLE for and just remain in limbo, rather take some form of action to make things better ... including seperation/Plan D.

The facts are that MOST M's don't recover from an A, especially the A of a W ... and by "recover" ... I'm talking about a fully engaged and equal partnership, not simply remaining M'd, and if you don't have some semblence of that type of recovery at this point ... its likely you never will.

Here at MB, there is "lip service" given to the concept that a BS has the right to D immediately, but in practice, it is advised that the BS needs to "earn" their D by attempting R, even when it is obvious that there really is nothing left to R. How many times has it been posted ... "You need to be able to look in the mirror and know that you've given it your all" ... in effect, putting the responsibility for the failure of the M on the BS, rather than on the WS, where it should be focused.

So ... if your BH refuses to attempt recovery ... then ... you have a decision ... accept the M "as is" ... or ... move on.

You are over a year past D-Day. Your H needs to own his own part of the dysfunction in the marriage. It is VERY normal for him to still be hurt and angry 1 year out, but he's not handling his hurt and anger in productive ways; he's choosing to punish you instead. You can't (and shouldn't) try to "teach" him what's healthy. But you CAN stand up for yourself and set boundaries regarding what behavior you will and won't accept from him.

This is a spiteful and manipulative threat. If I were in your shoes I would tell him that I understand that he hurts, that he is afraid, that he is angry. However if he is OUT of the marriage then he needs to go and leave me in peace. If he is IN the marriage then he needs to tell me what he is feeling and why. Threats are hurtful and unproductive. If he threatens again, repeat or excuse yourself from the conversation until he's willing to deal with the issues instead of making empty threats.

No, those are huge DJs and you *don't* deserve to be told them. What you need to hear instead of "You're so selfish, you only think of yourself" is "I feel ignored or disrespected when I don't get to choose where we eat dinner on Fridays" or whatever is bugging him. You can't fix anything with "you're so selfish!". You need real info from him.


No. He needs to eliminate LBs, just like you do. You both need to treat one another with respect.

He has the right to tell you he hurts, but NOT to tell you how you are feeling.

I call BS and that doesn't stand for betrayed spouse. He needs to be IN this marriage or not. It's time for him to quit playing the "I'm so hurt I can be an [censored] and there's nothing you can do about it" card.

Have you since fixed those bad choice you made re: your job?


Now I'm coming down pretty hard on your H, but there are probably some DJs on your side of the fence too, and of course you need to be meeting his ENs and POJAing things.

What Extraordinary Precautions do you have in place to help your husband feel safe and to keep him aware that you have healthy boundaries firmly in place? He won't work on the M until he feels like it might be safe to do so.

Ruth,

My only addition to this thread is that according to your sig line, Dday was just over a year ago. His chest wound is almost healed, but very tender. The shock and trauma have subsided but the anger and the rest of the emotional rollercoaster is still racing/raging on.

Time is on your side though. He is still with you. Now is the time for YOUR plan A, bigtime.

I guess it is just how much YOU can take.

Maybe give it another year...if things are the same or worse, then move on.

Counselors can be very beneficial, asking the right questions and directing the discussion toward productive avenues and away from the destructive ones you both seem to be going down when you argue.

And how the heck does "going home to let the dog out" start a 3 day argument?

You must hunker down and weather his tantrums...hang you head and agree. If he doesn't like the crying, try not to.

It was said you must re-earn your place and win him back.

I must agree.

kirk

Ruth,

I'm sorry for you, but I do agree with a lot of MyRev advice. You may have broken your H, but you can not fix him. Only He can do that. Have you told your family about your A ? Have you apologized to his family for your A? These things can bring comfort to you H if you have not done them yet. The big problem you face is your H's indifference and time. The opposite of love is not hate, but indifference. Your H has taken you back and risked everything in doing so. If his family knows of the A, he may feel that if you have another A he will lose all of their support because he because of this decision. This may weigh heavily on him.

Perhaps your H needs to see that "you get it". That you understand his pain and circumstances. Perhaps he needs to see how this can work going forward. You've only been married 4+ years. He has a long time to be married to you and to have to deal with this huge stain on this marriage. I wish I could be more help, but I too have some very hard choices to make. Likely the same choices your H will have to make.

RuthGL

Turtlehead is spot on.

I would only add that while you set healthy boundaries, you also work in an overdrive mode to meet his EN's. Plan A!

I may be off, but it sounds to me like he just wants to...punish something/someone. You know, to be 'even.' I don't think he knows what that would look like, but he just knows he is feeling like 'when do I get to feel like I came out on top?'

JMO

Have you guys discussed what it would take for him to feel like that? I would imagine he's feeling like he had to swallow a lot, to keep you in the same house. What physical steps could you guys take that would mean something to him? Someone posted that they needed to throw away a sweater their WS wore during the affair, but it had gone missing. Once it resurfaced, she told the WS and he himself threw it away. Cathartic. Something like that?

"He never takes any action beyond just telling me he wants to have sex with other women and that he is not happy with me anymore. "

You better brace for a Retaliation A...Lookout!!!

DUDE

Thanks for your reply Turtlehead. I am not trying to make him out to be a monster, because he's not. In fact, most of the time he is perfectly nice and pleasant and wonderful and we have a great time together. It's just that periodically, he has these short spells where he turns into someone else. It's like a switch goes off in his head and he just gets really pissed off and mean and I know I'm in for lectures, belittlement, general coldness, etc. During those times he will recast the good times as all bad and say he was just pretending to be happy. This has been going on since long before the A. Before the A, the reason he said it was ok for him to do it was because he was bitter at me for having moved to another city so I could attend graduate school and my apparent lack of gratitude for that sacrifice he made. Now the reason is the A.

Anyway, I just take it because like I said it doesn't happen that often (once a month maybe?). I think he just needs the emotional release and maybe wants to make sure I don't forget how much pain I caused him? I also feel like I owe it to him after what I did.

I know the burden is on me to make this better and to do the heavy lifting. I surprise him with tickets to sporting events, I have his buddies over and cook dinner for them, we are currently hosting one of his friends for Korea for 3 months and I didn't bat an eye when he asked, we go out to eat with his mother almost every week, I am taking him on an incredible vacation next week for our anniversary that I planned over a month ago, I go to whatever movie he wants to see (that is one of his favorite RAs), I always defer to his choice of restaurant or even suggest his favorites even if I don't want it to make him happy. Also, I have put into place EPs such as no more socializing on the internet, I deleted my facebook account, no computer games, I call him periodically during the day to let him know where I am and what I'm doing. However, when he gets in his moods he says I haven't done anything for him nor anything to try and make it better. That's why I'm so frustrated I guess, because most of the time it seems like we're making progress and then these episodes happen and it seems like there's nothing I can do and all my efforts are worth nothing.

As to the work situation, yes I fixed that a long time ago (end of july '08).

RuthGL,

I think this marriage can be saved, but I wonder if it should.

I read this thread and your original thread and what I see is two people who don't have a clue about how to be married or even good friends with one another.

I see a couple that was separated.
I see a from your comments that your H felt you ignored him when he was seeing you.
I see a spouse that made sacrifices for you but without using the Policy of Joint Agreement, POJA. Please read about this.
I see you trying to "make up" for what you did, but missing the mark terribly.
I see an H who was betrayed but seems to like the role of victim.

I don't see any efforts on either of your parts to change your approach to the marriage and the relationship.

Let me discuss your actions so far and I hope that you will see what I am seeing/sensing. You said Yes, you are right, but you must realize that the burden on you is to do the changing of your perspective on your boundaries. it is on you to become his partner again, and not his slave. It is on you to develop a life that benefits both of you, not just him, not just you.




Do you really think his love can be bought? Do you really think his trust can be bought? Do you really think you doing these things shows you understand his pain? Do you really think he wants a "partner" who is his slave? Do you really think he married you so that you could do everything and anything for you? I don't! I think he wanted a partner, a woman with backbone, capable, loving, and hopefully someone who understood what commitment meant. Perhaps you were that person before the affair, or early in this very young marriage, but you were not during the affair, you were not shortly before the affair, and you are not now. Who are you? What do you want from your life? How has this changed you? Is it for the better?

These are things he needs to see. I am not saying stop doing nice things. I am saying you cannot buy back what you gave away. But, you can earn it and oddly that means becoming someone he admires. You stated the above items as if they were a sacrifice on your part. You will develop deep resentment if you continue to do things you don't like. Just like he developed deep resentment when he felt he made sacrifices that were not appreciated.

Harley is very clear and in my life experience correct. Sacrifices must be very deeply negotiated and both partners need to agree one what recompense such a sacrifice should earn.
The old saying "No good deed goes unpunished." is correct when people don't negotiate the sacrifice, and the recompense for making this sacrifice.


Excellent, these are musts for you and you have done them.




Your efforts are worth nothing because the value of them has not been negotiated. You are trying to meet the wrong EN's and working hard at that. You need to find out or figure out what your H's biggest EN's are and then meet them. I would bet they include you being you. I would bet that they include you negotiating with him things and starting to set boundaries for your behavior and yes even his behavior.

You need to really understand what you value about your H. But, you must also understand you cannot fix what is hurt. He must do that himself. He also must decide to make the marriage better as in work on his own contributions to things.

There is no doubt about your role and guilt in the destruction of the marriage with the A. You get the award for that one. However, the marriage had problems before the A. You both had roles in this. It may be your independent behavior. It may be the most deadly of love busters, the disrespectful judgements, DJs. It may have been many things.

I do think you should go to counseling. He may be just looking for someone to agree with him that you wronged him and he should leave. If that is what he is looking for, let him find it. You will be better off without him.

But, above all you need to change your internal view of things. You cannot "buy" your way back into this marriage. You must become part of this marriage again. Right now as you write it is clear that things are "he vs. I" , not us. He seems to be seeing it the same way "she vs. me". This will never do. In a marriage it is about "US".

Please read or reread the articles on this site again. I would encourage you to start with Harley's four rules for a good marriage. I would then recommend the "polices": radical honesty, and joint agreement". Then go to needs and love busters.

If nothing else you should come out of this experience a better more aware person. You should learn and grow. You should become a person you are proud of. If you do these things your marriage has a chance.

I hope something I have said is of help.

God Bless,

JL

Nevermind, I see your sig.