Jayne, you can wallow all you want, LOL, but you sound more like yourself when you're running on all cylinders than when you're wallowing!

When I feel stuck in the wallowing, I tell myself, gosh darnit, I know I'm going to be done working through these issues one day, how about taking a small bite today? There is no such thing as small changes.

You forgot your plan to eliminate AOs, okay. Maybe I missed it, but I din't see the AO part to begin with. But anyhow, how about rereading Q&As>Eliminating Lovebusters>Angry Outburts? And then let us know what speaks to you there. For me, the progressive boundary enforcements were important, to cool off and reset when I felt steaming. So I could remember that my H is not and has never been a problem or an obstacle, but a partner, a gift, a treasure.

My kids fuss about church because their Dad goes rarely, and I like taking them every week, too. I have prayed and prayed about H becoming the spiritual leader for our family, so why would I be surprised that the kids would turn to his way instead?

So we have been trying different POJAs. I used to tell them if we got there early, there would be time for the doughnuts there, but sometimes DH is unenthusiastic about the kids getting doughnuts. So then we try things like they go every other week.

I have felt sadness giving up that dream, that my family would go to church together every week again, the way we used to, but that's not the reality, today, so I had to let it go. H's walk is between him and God. I have heard IRL many stories like Mark shared, where the unsaved spouse became saved after many years, or a man who didn't like fellowship later became very involved in ministry, and that's beautiful. I SD'd about it for a few years there, and then got angry when he didn't come with us, or made us late. I did used to pray that H would come with us, but that's still striving towards my will, and it felt healthier to let that go. When I pray for H now, I pray that he will come to know God, to walk with Him, instead of praying specifically about church or Sunday.

Jayne, this is a general reflection on society, not you and your kids, but when I hear people say things like 'how do I make the kids want to go' or 'what if they're not happy' I want to shake someone!

IMO, the biggest fault of today's society is this movement toward making sure the kids are happy. IMO, parents make the rules, kids follow them, and everything works. Now, that doesn't mean you mistreat them, or give them bad logic on why they have to go (cos you'll get a whipping if you don't, etc.), just that you have the RIGHT and DUTY to say 'I am your mother and this is what I say you will do.'

You're not abusing them. You're not a drunk or absent or anything bad. If the worst you can say is that you 'make' them go to church when they don't want to - and what kid does? - well, my goodness, what a horrible parent!

Why are kids so crazy today? Because they have no FEAR and no RESPECT. They fear no one and they respect nothing. We've bent over backwards to make sure they are happy and gratified, that we forgot that our first job is to teach them they are loved, but after that, that they have a place in this world, and it isn't at the top!

I don't think you are anything like that. I just wanted to give it for perspective. If their dad doesn't go, well, he just doesn't go. You don't force another adult to do what they don't want (another great lesson to learn).

What was that movie about the mountain? Spencer's Mountain, I think, where the dad never went to church, but it was all good in the end? Maybe you could rent that!

Cat, it isn't that I'm hesitant to "force" them to go to church. It's more that I *want* them to go to church, because I want them to be the type of kids who are ok with going to church. I don't want them to end up rejecting all things spiritual because of bad experiences being "forced" to go to church. A lot of the atheists I know were raised Catholic, attending Catholic school.

Plus, when I asked what do I tell my kids, I meant, logically, how do I explain that it's ok for daddy to stay home, and daddy is ok with them staying home, but mommy is saying they have to go to church. I'm still in the "raise up a child in the way he should go and when he is old he will not depart <fingers crossed>" stage, I'm not yet ready for the hard questions!

Happy, I think both of us would prefer staying home to avoid small talk. Neither of us likes that much. So when we do go, I don't subject him to waiting around while I small talk. This new church we're going to, the only other people we know is a couple and he works with the guy, so any small talk now is his "fault" (not fault, but YKWIM). Even that is rare since we usually attend different services.

He intellectually and philosophically sees no point in going to church, since he is an atheist.

Cat, I agree totally with this:


I teach young adults, and I absolutely agree that our society is suffering an epidemic of entitlement issues. I try extra hard to teach my kids that they are not "entitled" to things, they must work for things, they must sometimes wait for things, etc. And as twins, they learned about sharing since the womb. Well ok, LOL they certainly knew about sharing in day care at the age of 2 years old, while the other kids would grab and cry and stuff.

Mark and ears, y'all get separate replies. LOL

Jayne,

Playing devil's advocate a bit, do you think he is regretting his decision to support the kids going to Church? It seems like you are wanting to keep him to that promise, but maybe you could release him, and renegotiate that decision. I imagine that is a huge sacrafice from his perspective, and can't feed strong feelings for you.

Perhaps you could agree that the kids don't have to go Church, but that they are always welcome to go without any fear of losing support from either parent regardless. Maybe Dad could agree to spend time on teaching some philosophy and principles that you both agree on. You can then show the kids how that ties back into your faith.

Perhaps Church isn't something you want to POJA, but maybe you won't be giving up as much as you think you are, or an alternative approach could have a positive effect you aren't anticipating.

I don't get the sense that MrJayne is against the kids going, so I don't see what's wrong with Jayne taking them. It's withholding that I have a problem with.

Again, my answer is that kids don't have to get logical answers from parents about such things. It just is the way it is. At least at their age. When they are 11 or 13 or 15, sure, have that talk with them. For now, it should be enough to know that Mom wants them to go, so they're going.

I *think* he isn't against them going... he hasn't specifically said so, but he isn't doing much to support my encouraging them to go. He's heard me talk about how kids raised in some sort of church/synagogue/etc environment are less likely to get in trouble with drugs, etc., and I think he doesn't DISagree with that. He would probably prefer them to be exposed to a variety of beliefs and especially to be taught only scientific stuff, so in that respect he is resistant to them going a lot.

I'm not sure I'm willing to POJA that. I think that would be something I'd have to put in the non-negotiable column, in the name of following God no matter what and doing what I think is best for our kids by a long shot.

***Side-note: to Queenie and others of the Jewish faith, is it offensive to you when someone else writes the name out, instead of writing G-d? I don't want to write something that would offend you. I think of that every time I mention G-d in a post. I don't know if Queenie reads this thread, but I didn't want to burst into her thread just to ask this question.***


LOL Cat, we are both scientists and we are most definitely raising our kids by giving them logical explanations for everything from why is the sky blue to why you can't eat dessert before dinner.

Careful exceptions being made to Rudolph, Santa Claus, the Easter bunny and the Tooth Fairy. Even those, if they ask in a certain way, I ask them if they really want to know the truth (oh how that pains me!) and usually DS7a says yes he wants to know, and DS7b wants to keep the magic.

I hate the loss of the sense of magic! I try to preserve it as best I can, without telling untruths. Otherwise, why should they believe us when we tell them that drugs are bad?

Jayne:

Something that helped us with the kids is to explain to them that you are trying to educate them in what goes on at church so that they will feel comfortable choosing to be churchgoers when they grow up. That you want to give them the basis of knowledge to enable them to make an informed choice for themselves. Otherwise they might feel anxious about joining a church since they won't know what is expected of them.

Admittedly, this works better for our religion where many of the prayers are conducted in another language with another alphabet so they have to go to religious school and attend services before they know enough of the liturgy to feel comfortable participating. But there are probably aspects of that applicable to your situation.

After all, that is part of your parenting job that kids understand. Teaching them enough so they can make decisions for themselves when they grow up.

In fact, if you can't get them to go to YOUR church every Sunday, you might be able to up the frequency of church attendance by throwing in other churches from time to time. Most churches will welcome visitors who just want to "check it out" occassionally. This can give you wonderful opportunities to discuss with your kids how your church is similar to and different from other churches. And it also highlights the difference between attending a familiar church and attending as a visitor. Which reinforces why you want them to attend your church often - so they don't feel like strangers there.

That's a great idea, hold!

I had planned on visiting around when we moved here, but the 1st church we went to the kids really enjoyed it and we found out that a coworker of H's goes there, so we never visited anywhere else.

Plus, it has the absolute latest-starting worship service! LOL Kinda like looking for the mail drop with the latest pickup!

But H may be more inclined if we visited around. He keeps saying he has no opinion whatsoever, but still... he was brought up in a more formal type church, I think it's like the Episcopals in the U.S. I think it's called the Anglican Church in Canada. We've been going to churches that are Baptist (or very similar to Baptist) but with very contemporary, casual services.

When we discussed how to raise the kids before, H said he wanted to expose them to a very broad base, so that they could choose for themselves. Broad as in not just limited to the Christian faith. I'm not sure I'm ok with that anymore. After the kids were born and I almost died, it really brought me back to the beliefs I was raised with.

I'm ok with exposing them to certain religions, not to mention any specifics because I don't want to start a religious dispute, but religions that have the same foundations or even religions that mostly deal with respect for nature. I'm not ok with exposing them to teachings saying there's an entirely different god or gods, at least not while they're still so young. I'm still hoping to imprint them with my beliefs.

I bet that's a moot point anyway, in this tiny town I bet the only churches are those that pretty much have the same basis as mine. I'll try asking H if he'd like to join us in a couple of weeks to visit the Episcopal Church. This coming weekend we're going to be traveling.

Ok, I've had a bit more time to reflect now, and I have more time to post, in reply to Mark and ears mostly.

The things that both of you said were on my mind yesterday (Sunday) morning. I was getting ready for church, I tried to get the kids ready, and it almost worked... except H had them put on some of their oldest, most stained clothes... we were running late, and I thought I would jsut go on by myself, but I wasn't sure what H had in mind and it had seemed like he was putting the "finishing touches" on them so I waited a couple minutes in the car to see if anyone else would come out.

The kids came out, but they went to their bikes. I asked if Daddy was coming out, and if we were going to church. They weren't sure, they said Daddy had told them to go ride their bikes but they said maybe he was coming in a few minutes... but I'm pretty sure he wasn't from the way they said it. Since they said he'd told them to "go ride their bikes" especially.

Well, I was ok with just going by myself, I was sort of wanting to be by myself by that point anyway. In fact, by then it was so late I took a detour and rather than go to church, I turned to drive down the canyon through the national forest. I listened to a radio broadcast worship service, and parked in a nice spot to finish listening and to read passages in my Bible about marriage and wives, and to pray. Like you said, Mark. I'm trying to give it over to Him.

I was pretty upset when I left, but I was completely calm and content when I came back.

We went on to have a pretty good Mother's Day. H took us to the next town over to buy coats for the kids at a camping goods store, and it was really cool, with stuffed animals (real, stuffed, as in taxidermy, not as in cuddly teddy bears) and an aquarium, and dog stuff for me, and fishing stuff for the kids to look at. Then we went for sushi and then, even though it meant a late night for H, he agreed to go to the movies. We saw the new Star Trek movie!!! It was awesome to introduce my kids to Star Trek, they've resisted watching the tv show but maybe now they will. And if you haven't seen it yet, let me tell you that it's probably about as appropriate for Mother's Day as any movie out there. It starts with a mother giving birth under difficult circumstances to say the least (tears were streaming down my face!), and another mother also has quite the influential role (no tears that time, appropriately enough ).

And even though H didn't want to talk about the movie afterward (a huge AH from my POV) the kids were all excited and full of questions.

So it was a pretty good day, and I didn't spend the day feeding resentment.

As far as getting back on track, and my plan... that's another long discussion, lots of thoughts I've been trying to sort out, almost worthy of starting a new thread. But I am too tired to delve into all that right now. In short, I have an appointment to talk to Steve Wednesday morning.

Thanks y'all!!!!!

Jayne,

Maybe it's a little late for this post, but I think sticking to your guns is very good for your children. Here's what my DS12 hand wrote in his Mother's Day card to me:

"I would like to thank you for being a great mother. Thank you for helping me out in hard times and always being there for me. I love the way you never (?) yell at us even when we deserve it. I love the way you are a caring mom doing what is best for us. Thank you for not letting me do rebellious things. I may have grumbled, but secretly I was relieved. Thank you for being a great mom."


FWIF, we are Catholic and go to church weekly. My H wants nothing to do with anything spiritual...no discussion, no church, nothing. He also has a tendency to get depressed and negative about life...I wonder why. He was raised Baptist. I've offered to change churches if he'd get back into it. I have stood my ground as far as the children go. I don't want them to feel powerless to help themselves or not to realize there's a loving God with them always.


Edited for spelling errors and because the "post box" was doing funny things.

Jayne, working without a plan just leads to more flailing, harder to think through to get through to a plan. At least you keep coming back to your thread sporadically so I can ask you about it again. I'm really glad that you're calling Steve again Wednesday. Did he talk to you about filling out LBQs and ENQs so you can put a plan together? In your case, would the RC Q be appropriate, too? I understand how it can be difficult to commit and be accountable to a plan, but the point of collecting all this information is that your plan would be things that you *want* to do.

Also, I think Steve could give you some perspective on being being "unequally yoked." I would assume he'd see it as a temporary thing you can work through. There is a Q&A>Resolving Conflicts>Conflicts of Faith that I think would be great for perspective and a plan there.

Hmmm. I think I'm having a brain freeze, because people keep misunderstanding what I'm trying to say, lol.

First have to comment, when you say he'd like them to be exposed to a variety of beliefs, I would agree with him. When our kids hit Confirmation in the Lutheran church, they have to attend service in a variety of churches so that they are aware that they can find God anywhere they seek (after all, there can only be one God, right? So he will simply be worshipped differently in each faith; at least that's the way I see it). They hope the kids will choose Luteranism, but they prefer that they do so by choice, rather than guilt, thus exposing them to other faiths.

btw, as a scientist, you might enjoy visiting the Unitarianist church, which espouses free thinking and questioning everything.

Now, when I said they don't get logical reasons at age 7 or 8, what I meant is that, you don't say to a 7 year old "I think you should try the asparagus, carrots, beans, and ice cream, and determine which one you want to eat for dinner." You say "I'm your mom and it's my job to fill you with nutrition; so you're going to try the asparagus, carrots, and beans, and if you get enough nutrition from that that your body needs, you can have some ice cream." In other words, there are certain areas in a child's life (touching a hot stove, crossing a street, etc.) where the mom steps in and says 'because I said so' when the child is incapable of making a decision based on wisdom and experience. Hardly any kid is going to choose to go to church (unless they are the kind of church where they turn it into a carnival every time); thus, IMO, this is one of those places where the parent steps in and says 'because I said so. End of discussion.' Not, 'honey, is it ok if we go to church?' or 'would you like to go to church?' My H tried to do that with D18, and every area he tried to do that ended in disaster. Sometimes we just have to be the adult while they acknowledge they are the child. 'It' just is.

I think our society has gotten so entrenched in making sure we don't bruise their egos that we are turning them into basket cases. As you said, you see it in the classroom - they don't understand why they have to work at anything, when they got all they wanted growing up. I wish it would swing back to teaching them to respect parents, God, elders, and their country. It's human nature to need to have something you fear and respect.

Now, that said, I raised D18 entirely on logic. She is unlike any other child I've ever met because of it. If she was going to a party and I knew a trouble kid would be there, I would say beforehand 'Don't forget XYZ is going to be there, and you know he tends to take chances to get attention. If he tries to get you go along with him and slide down the stairs, what do you think is going to happen? Something is probably going to get broken, and you are going to get blamed, because you have seen him blame others for his mistakes. So when he does that, what do you think you should do?' And she would already have deducted not to get involved.

MrCat asked her a couple months ago (discussing one of her friends who was yet again grounded), why she never got in trouble enough to get grounded. She just shrugged and said 'Why would I do that? That's just dumb.'

That's what raising her in logic has done. (as I pat myself on the back, lol)

I agree, ears. Having the plan in your head helps you keep ON that plan.

And Bringiton said what I was trying to say. YOU have to be the Rulemaster. They WANT you to. It gives them security. I remember my mom always said, when I was a teenager, "I trust you; do what you think is right."

Wrong!

I SO wanted her to tell me 'Heck no you're not going to that party!' so I could turn to the kids and say 'Sorry, can't go, she won't let me' when I was really scared to go. But since they knew she wouldn't say no, if I DID say no, they knew it was ME who didn't want to go, and I'd be ostracized.

Does that make sense? Kids need their parents to give them those hard rules.

And I really am concerned when I hear how you describe your family situation, Jayne. I keep reading posts where you seem to...just go with the flow. If you have a husband who never talks, why do you give in so much? If you wanted them at church (and especially on Mother's Day!), you should have said 'put those bikes back and get in the car; I'll tell your dad you're going.' Well, actually, IMO, you should have made it clear while you were still in the house that they were going.

Instead, you seem to kind of float in the periphery of everyone, watching and waiting to see what happens, and then just go with the flow. Are you afraid of seeming like a taskmaster? What is it that keeps you from stating your belief and fighting for it? I'm not just talking about church; you do this a lot. I think it might help you to research this, find out why you grew up feeling like you didn't have the right (or whatever you're feeling) to have your voice heard.

Where does explaining the reasons imply that the rules are loose?

Ok, I hope I don't sound defensive, I'm trying to figure out if y'all are seeing something I'm not.


I don't think I'm without a plan... I think it's more like, I have been questioning the plan. Hence the need for the long discussion. Which I really don't have time to go into right now, grades are due TOMORROW. I do think it's important enough to make time to talk to Steve tomorrow, since tomorrow afternoon we head to Vancouver. Details coming, but first I'll answer current questions.


Yes, and I've waited months for H to fill out his. It should now be clear to others, not just me, that H has no intentions of filling those out. See the beginning of this thread - the very title of this thread is about me trying to do the MB thing in spite of H's not completing the Q's.


I think I have a good enough idea anyway, and H won't.


Hmmm, I think I'm starting to get what you're asking... you're asking for details of things I'm doing to "follow MB"? Simply put, it's been the same thing for awhile - avoid LB's (AOs, SDs, DJs, AHs) - mostly check; offer Admiration - check; FC in the way of handling most of the childcare - check; SF when he asks - check; FS, no longer applicable; DS, nope, other than laundry and making arrangements for a housekeeper, I'm on strike until I have a say in where things go in the kitchen; Affection and Conversation, *so* not applicable that it's more like those are AHs to him, so my "plan" there is to NOT offer or ask for those.

Essentially, Plan A behavior. Hence my wondering. Long discussion, but it looks like I'm headed there anyway, so against my better judgment I'll touch briefly on it (that's usually the perfect way to be misunderstood round these parts LOL).

You'll say to share my H&O. BTDT. Drive-by honesty. All that does is vent some resentment... i.e., focusing on the source of resentment feeds the resentment, and the drive-bys sound like snipes. It doesn't matter, NO AMOUNT OF HONESTY and NO REQUEST HOWEVER THOUGHTFUL is EVER going to get this man to meet my need for conversations.

I've followed the plan for restoring intimacy as much as I could on my part. I've done it far longer than Plan A was ever recommended.

Like Mel has said on other threads (believe it or not, Mel, if you want to comment I'd love to hear your input), DO I WANT TO KEEP WHINING ABOUT A SITUATION I VOLUNTEERED FOR AND AM STAYING IN? The ONLY way to change whether or not my spouse meets my biggest ENs is to change spouses.

Now, am I willing to do that? Am I a renter? NO.

Is MB saying that a person should dissolve a M that doesn't meet ENs? I don't think so, but some threads sound like it... hence a discussion topic that deserves its own thread that has been burgling in the back of my mind for a looooong time now, but it's a real land mine and I haven't yet figured out how to broach it.

Things aren't really that bad anyway. No intimacy, but no bad stuff either - more like roommates - so I'm very interested in what Steve has to say.


I'll check that out, when I have time. Thanks!

Re-reading a couple of my posts... I see a couple of things I wrote that may be giving the wrong impression.

I wrote that "I am clueless" when ears asked about my plan... the cluelessness is basically my questioning what do you do when you've *followed* the plan and it didn't restore intimacy? Because the spouse never came on board? That does happen. I find it hard to believe that the answer is to divorce, over something minor like lack of some ENs met (like conversation and affection), not for something like abuse, abandonment, etc.

Yet saying that here will probably get an outcry against "settling".

But that just doesn't seem like grounds for divorce IMHO.

So, what does one do then? That's the clueless part. There's several threads where people are discussing similar situations. I see folks progressing from Plan A to Plan B... which Dr. Harley admits is very risky and only to be undertaken to protect the BS. Not as a tactic to try to change a spouse who doesn't meet your ENs.

I also had a typo in a response to cat, a very small typo that completely changed my intended meaning!

I said I *want* my kids to go to church...

What I meant to say is, I want my kids to *want* to go to church!

BIG huge diff! I'm NOT against telling them they HAVE to go. I just don't want to do it in a way that will make them HATE going.

My brain went faster than my fingers and I left out typing some words twice which completely changed the meaning.

Sorry, those were two different points for me. I was thinking of the way you guys handle going to church. You tell your H what you want. He tells you what he wants. But then, on a week by week basis, you seem to be...feeling each other out on what the kids are actually going to be doing. Last week, I think, you told them to get in the car. This week, you waited around to see if your H was going to come or whether he was going to send the kids on to church. In neither case, did you two just face each other and say 'let's go' or 'are you going' or 'I'm taking the kids.' At least that's how it seems from out here; I may be wrong.

If you POJA'd whether the kids went to church or not, or every other week, or tried a new church once a month, or whatever works for you two, you'd not be stuck waiting out by the car, then seeing your kids come out on bikes, while you were expecting to go to church together. Total lack of communication, and I'm not talking about your H's unwillingness to carry on a conversation.

I guess it got to me more because it was Mother's Day. I don't usually ask for anything, but on Mother's Day and my birthday, I have learned to step up and be vocal about what I want. And I let them know if I don't get it, at least on those two days.

It just seems like you aren't even allowing yourself that. If that had been me, and I wanted to go to church with my kids on Mother's Day, I would have gone inside and said 'WTH is going on? Can't you at least try to do this one thing for me on Mother's Day?' I mean, if I can do it, surely you can!

Do you ever do that? I don't think we've really discussed that with you.

lol, Jayne, if you find a church that is so enticing to kids that they want to go - short of making it a playground - I'd love to hear of it because from what I know, there's not a heck of a lot about church that sounds like fun to ANY child.

But my observation still stands. And I've seen this in several other of your situations, probably because H doesn't talk, but nevertheless, you guys seem to kind of bounce off of each other, never really having a pre-set agreement, and then just putting out feelers for what the other is going to do or think.

If you can't get conversation from him, the least you should strive for is acknowledgment of agreements.

But you're talking about kids of conformation age. My kdis are hopefully still in the molding stage. Hence my repeated references to bringing up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he shall not depart from it. I'm still in the bringing up stage, not the letting him choose whether or not to depart from it stage.

I disagree that *all* religions are equally valid.


That is the church H said in the past he would be ok with. I used to be ok with it, but not after coming back to my faith when I almost died. It's tooooooo lax for me, I think it would lead to confusion with all the different (and often contradictory) beliefs at such a young age, and last but not least I doubt there is one here.


You may have gotten the wrong impression, maybe because of my typo. I am NOT saying that the kids get to decide, or have a vote, on whether they eat ice cream before veggies. I AM saying that I tell them WHY veggies are important and healthy and will lead to them feeling better over-all and why they HAVE to eat them, and WHY eating ice cream exclusively is NOT what they would want in the long run and why we do NOT LET them eat ice cream if they haven't eaten the healthy stuff.

The result is that they sometimes CHOOSE the HEALTHY choices even when they have a choice. A whole lot more than other kids.

These kids do not drink soft drinks. The few times they've been offered it, like at birthday parties or soccer games, I could probably count on one hand; and they returned it and asked for juice or Kool-aid. Because they wanted to. They regularly choose salad over greasy pizza. Because they want to. It was a long time before they even liked McD's hamburger and french fries. Unfortunately the nomadic summer resulted in them learning to appreciate fast food. Still, we eat fast food less than once every two weeks.

They think fruit is a dessert.

They know too much butter, cookies, etc makes you fat and is bad for your heart, so they make healthier choices than I see other kids making.


I'm surprised you think I need to be told this... unless it's all coming from that typo. No I would not let my kid "choose" to touch a hot stove. However, I have seen the results of religion being forced down a kid's throat. It isn't the results I'm hoping for. I also disagree that kids have to hate church. I don't recall hating church. My kids have actually looked forward to going to our current church, and asked if today was Sunday. There are several things they look forward to, and I'm just hoping that H doesn't negatively influence them there. About the only thing they don't like is having to get dressed and *go* instead of staying home to play.

I also think it's possible to bring kids up to actually love God, so that going to church isn't such a dreaded thing. That is my goal.


I don't see where you are getting that I need to be told this.


So I would think you would actually AGREE with me.

Agreed. I had an issue with DS8 last night that fit into this, sort of. DS8 was at his baseball game, and he honestly isn't very good. It has less to do with his talent and more to do with his work ethic. I know that pushing him harder doesn't work too well, and I have taken the approach of just keeping my mouth shot most of the game, let him figure things out, and let the coaches do their job.

He started off well, and got a base hit, even scored, which is very rare for him. But then when it was time to go out in the field, he told the coach his stomach hurt and he couldn't play. I asked him if he was ok, and he gave me his line. He sat on the bench drinking his gatorade, until it was his turn to bat again, and he went out and did that without complaint, but never returned to the field again. When the team got Icee's at the end of the game, he took it.

So when got back to the truck, I called him on it. I told him I believed that his stomach was bothering him, but that he still could play, and he used that to avoid doing the things he wanted to do (playing in the outfield), yet still do what he wanted to (batting, drinking gatorade and Icee). He needed to be honest with himself and with me. I was disappointed because I know that he can still succeed even when it gets hard or he doesn't feel like it. He was better then that. He wasn't going to be happy with himself if he gave up so easily. He spent several minutes trying to convince me otherwise.

I guess my point is, I think our kid's need us to set rules for sure, but I think they also need us to tell them the truth, to not let them get away with lying to themselves. That means we need to face the truth ourselves.

So maybe in addition to setting a hard rule about church, getting agreement on a plan with your H, letting your kids know why church is important and letting them tell you why they do or don't want to to go. Basically what others of already said I guess.