Thanks for the drive-by, b_r. Knock next time and we'll share a cup o' tea.

Glad you enjoy the thread, Sere. Yours is one of those I have bookmarked that I read every day that I come here, even though, as you know, I don't post much. I don't feel I can offer anything. Know that I admire the work you and your H are doing and I am learning much from your thread -- as I am from many here in Recovery. (GQII, not so much. ) I'm also learning from the advice you're giving to others like ST. I wish you only the best. (JL is among the best here, isn't he? Love his posts. He's giving you fantastic guidence.)

Hi, Jim. Please also say hi to the Mrs. for me.

I've never tried haggis and don't know that I will ever go about trying to try haggis. And certainly not any canned stuff. If I'm ever in that situation, Mark or Lil do you know... Is it insulting to add mayo or ketchup?

And if your H really does look like that, ST... We could probably use his hair at The Flying Fur shop too.

Sis' 40th birthday party tonight which should be a lot of fun. H and the whole family are going to the party, along with friends and cousins that H knows and likes. Then Mom's day tomorrow. H hasn't mentioned any plans for me but we are taking his mom out for lunch.

The weather's nice so I'm hoping it will be a good weekend.

(((((Everyone of you)))))

Cheers!

Well I hope the party was a success and if there was dancing I hope that you and hubby got in some slow snuggling.

Mark, there is an annual Haggis Supper in the village near by and very well attended every year.
I've not tried Haggis, can't get past the visual. I'm not sure why though, I grew up eating pig tails, heart and tongue, and there was usually some blood sausage or head cheese in the fridge.

Jim, I'm glad you had a chuckle, small return for what I've learned here on L4's thread. Somehow will have to get Mark to chuckle too!

Oh and L4, there are many Murray clans out here, and lots of Mc's.

The party itself was a success with great attendance and a lot of mingling of family and friends. Our favorite cousins who live in Canada about 2 hours away surprised us and that was awesome. H likes them a lot too, and spent much of the evening with them.

I had several people tell me that I looked beautiful. My H was not among them. I sat by H whenever I could and sought him out throughout the evening to say hi and see how he was doing. Every hand touch or kiss on the cheek from me was met with indifference. He took the kids home early as was agreed to (I stayed behind to help clean up) and I walked him and the kids to the car. He shut the door on me. I saw it as an accident and I opened it to kiss him goodnight.

I know you think it's because it was Sis' party and I agree that can be true. But it continued throughout Mother's Day.

Mom's day started with breakfast in bed and the kids were so much fun, all excited about sharing the cards and gifts they made. Afterward H crawled into bed with me and decided it was time to talk about how horrible his life is. He said that he never thought that at this point in his life he'd be dealing with all of the things he is, and it's in large part my fault. I apologized and said I am so sorry for what I did and I'm sorry he's still hurting. And that I'm still here trying to help him. I cannot change what I did, but I'll do anything to make things better.

He said he can't understand what he did to have his life turn out this way and why nothing goes his way. (Hard for me to swallow "nothing" after having spent an hour with our two wonderful children while lying in our king-sized bed in our comfortable home.) He said he should have quit his job last summer when he felt like it. I said, "You're talking to the queen of coulda, shoulda, wouldas. I live in that world every day. So take it from experience. It doesn't change anything. Hopefully you learn from looking back, but you can't change it. That's why I'm asking you today, what can I do for you?" He said he's tried my optimistic approach to life and it doesn't work. H said that he doesn't know how faith even plays into it any more.

He said, "I bet you're sorry things didn't turn out as you wanted them to a year ago." I said, "I'm sorry that I betrayed you. I'm sorry I lied. I'm sorry you hate your job so much. I'm sorry our marriage is in trouble. I'm sorry things aren't as you had hoped. But I'm not sorry I'm here with you. And I'm here to help change things. We can't do anything about what got us here but we can change how we go forward."

I held my toungue thoughout most of it and just listened to him talk, thinking I wished we could have had this conversation another time but if Mother's Day morning is when he needed to get it all out, then that is better then never.

We drove north to have lunch with his mother then visited with my mother. We were home around dinner time. Conversation was dominated by his job, what trailer to get for his motorcycle, and money. Otherwise he was distant from me. But I kept the smile.

So help me with O&H...

When he wants to do something I disagree with, I tell him my thoughts, he doesn't give, then I don't try POJA because it hasn't worked in the past and I can't LB -- which is where we otherwise end up. How do I strike a balance here? We can't POJA as H doesn't follow it and I'm still learning it. I can't LB because I can't. H gets his way. Resentment is building. It feels like old times.

My L$ is on life support but H doesn't know it. I go elsewhere to cry -- which happens several times a day. He probably thinks things are fine if you were to ask him because I'm being the best L4 I can be. So I feel like I'm lying to him. You've told me to keep my triggers and my pain to myself and focus on him. And I have been. The house is organized, I'm working out in the mornings, I'm working more hours, I'm cleaning the kitchen, doing the laundry, being a sounding board as he struggles with his horrible job, thanking him, checking in on him throughout the day to see what I can do for him... I'm into month 7 of my own Plan A. I feel like I'm going to break one day and H is going to wonder, "Where did this come from?" I can keep it up for longer because... Well I just can. I'm faking it in hopes that I make it. But is it a lie putting on this smile while I'm dying inside?

He has so much on his mind. He said last night he feels paralyzed by everything he has going on. I subtly encouraged him to talk to someone who can help him. I'm here and will do all I can, but I may be limited in the help I can give and he should consider talking to someone who's trained in helping people.

I'm keeping my hurt to myself as most of you have suggested. I don't want to add to his already huge pile of crap that he's dealing with. I'm not LBing, doing RH (but am I?), and trying to meet his possible ENs.

All while I'm so longing for an "I love you," SF of any kind, to feel like I'm important, a hand on the back as he passes me in the hall...

From what you describe your H thoughts and feelings are very similar to mine. I wish I could tell you something profound and insightful but I struggle a lot of the time with the same thoughts your H does. My W is doing a great job and working very hard. But I just wonder why now? Why didn't she want do this before? Why did it take the A to happen?

But one thing I do disagree with - I don't think you should keep your crying to yourself or bury your feelings all the time. I know for me - I want to see my W's true emotions. I feel like the past couple of years have been full of lies. The last thing in the world I want to hear from W is that she is not telling me something or holding somethings back. No matter what it is. Sometimes when she seems happy all the time I'm like wtf - you just betrayed me and now everything is A-ok. It's not that seeing her cry or be sad makes me happy - but I guess at some level it shows me that she really is remorseful and really is sad about what she did. I know it may should kind of twisted - because ultimately it does make me sad when I see her sad - but at the same time it shows me she is being honest with me and showing her true feelings. And that's really what I want most right now.

As for the being distant part - I do the same thing sometimes. Sometimes I just get into a funk. I guess part of me wants to make sure my W really wants me and by being distant I want my W to 'prove' she wants me and is into me by showing me attention and pursuing me. And maybe dealing with a little rejection by me to maybe show in some small way how much she hurt me by rejecting me for the OM. I know kind of petty. But just being honest. I am far from perfect.

Good luck and keep up the good work. I think you are the right track overall. Don't give up.

I'm so sorry L4. Seems really [censored] that you're putting so much in just to be continuously told "it's not quite enough". Unfortunately, such is the lot of a WS at times.

I know I have had days when nothing my FWH did was good enough, because it didn't erase the BIG thing he had done, and the pain was overwhelming.

Your H seems to want you to suffer for what you have done to him. He seems to be in a lot of pain and it is very tempting as a BS to do things to make your WS suffer as much as possible in an attempt to redress the balance of hurt. It's not a good dynamic.

Also a BS will hurt a WS to test their resolve; to get them to prove how much they are really prepared to take, how much they are willing to fight, and how far they are prepared to go to stay in the M.

I'm sure I should know this but is he having amy help for depression?

I also hate to think of you crying alone. I wish I could say something profound to help you, but I just don't have the real experience to offer much else other than support.

Hang in there and let him know that you're in this for the long haul. I'm so sorry about your bad few days.

L4 - Just finished my post to you and popped over to GQII to see you have just posted to my FWH.

Thank you so much.

He is reading HNHN at the moment, but he will be so happy to read your really thoughtful post. He has been so down today about the bashing he has received, and what you have written will be absolutely perfect to pick him up.

I can't thank you enough for taking the time to make such a thoughtful post.

Absolute twaddle that all waywards are absolutley selfish. Total rubbush. You're a star.

Take care L4.

L4

you have mail

Hi there...

I was sad to read your post today. I agree with UpSideDown in that perhaps you want to begin to think about sharing your feelings with yor H. The vets may come in and tell you the opposite and if they do, so be it. Personally I no longer see a point to hiding pain - what good does it do anyone?

Are you still going to the park to scream and cry and vent? If so, do you feel any better after having done that?

I'm thinking of you...

L4,

Seems to me like your H is looking for some sort of reassurance that this won't happen again. I bet it is difficult for him to separate the A from his attempts to make the marriage better. I know the chronology is reversed for you. But to him he was doing a great job and then found out about the A's. So in his mind he was doing his best when you had the A.

At least he is not saying you have to undo the past any more.

So, How will he know for sure that this won't happen again? Or that there are not other bad things you have not told about yet?

It does seem like there is progress. I'm hoping you guys can get to some place happy. It is dangerous when both of you have empty LB's

This is great that H took the initiative to confide in you as to how he is feeling. I see this as a big step for him, could he not be feeling just a tad bit safer? Might this be an invitation to more talks? How did the conversation end?

While I can't relate to your H with regards to his R at this point, I can still relate to his pain. Can you explain L4 what he was referring to when you were thinking that?

You did great here, my hat is off to you.

I'm glad you bit your tongue because feelings don't recognize dates. H's healing trumps all holidays.



I believe you when you say that you are going to break. I think you are going to break too, not because of needs not being met, many of us have not had our needs met for many years. We don't break but we do withdraw from the M, but then maybe that's sort of the same, just a different word.
Resentment will make you withdraw.

If I remember right, the park was for screaming anything about the FOM, triggers etc.
I tend to agree with letting H in on some of what you are feeling, as long as he doesn't feel pressured to give you answers that he may not know now.
He should know that you are breaking inside too about his hurt and the future of the M. I would tell him first off that you expect no answers to what you will tell him and you are not looking for comfort, but you just want him to know where your head is at. Expect nothing back, and if you do get a good back, it's a bonus.
I also need to see my H's pain in his eyes every once in awhile, not for spite but for reassurance of his remorse.

Like the rest this is just my POV too.

Hello Looking4,

Really, really good post to billybassett...

You did a great job in showing him the fine line a FWS has to walk between helping their BS to heal and not losing themselves in the process...

Mrs.Flint said to tell you Hi! and agrees it was dead on what a FWS feels.

You mentioned in your post that "The resentment is building. It feels like old times."

You must not allow that to happen to you.

Right now YOU are the only one leading your marriage in it's hope of recovery.

If you fall your marriage has no one fighting for it...

Resentment in one spouse is detrimental to recovery, in both it's fatal to the marriage.

Your husband needs to know how hard you are trying and that you are having difficulty with seeing him in pain and not being able to help him...

That you know it is because of your actions that he feels this way...

Just be sure he DOES NOT feel you are frustrated with HIM.

That it is his pain that frustrates you, NOT HIM...

YOU need to know from him if you are doing the kind of things that HE wants you to do to give your marriage a chance to BEGIN to heal...

As an example if its apples you are giving him and he wants oranges it's not going to matter HOW MANY apples you give him, he will NEVER get started in recovery...

Here's the hard part...

YOU cannot be the one to keep asking your H these things...

Over and over...

He WILL take it as you thinking that he is healing too slow...

Or why can't he just get past it...

Or any one of a zillion different reasons why he is still a failure in your eyes...

THAT is the LAST thing you want him to feel.

HOWEVER, if you are getting near the breaking point,

IT IS time to enlist the help of someone else.

I really think the Harley's are the best bet...

to find out if you ARE or ARE NOT giving your H what he needs to heal...

They have the ability to tell you whether or not you are on the right path BEFORE you lose your desire to heal the marriage.

It's time to call.



God bless.

Jim

Hi, Everyone.

Thank you for coming by with your input. You folks are THE BEST and I know you have my H's and my best interest at heart. You prove it with every post -- no matter what shape, size, or color you bring it in.

I have been hurting as you read and I want to reply to each of you as I usually try to, but I want to give thoughtful response and I'm distracted today.

H is going to learn at some time whether or not he gets to keep his job or if he'll be asked to move on. He's been a wreck about it for days so I've been focused on reassuring him that no matter what happens, we will be okay and we will get through it. That he is not alone. His biggest concern is losing our health insurance since neither of my 2 part-time jobs offer coverage. Since our daughter's accident last summer, we know how critical health insurance is and paying this out of pocket right now -- while we could do it for a while -- would be very damaging to our financial state.

Remember what I told you about FS being very important to H? This is another reason why my own hurts seem insignificant at this time. That me sharing my concerns would be received as me yet again being selfish. The timing would be highly suspect.

So I'm bopping in on other threads and running spreadsheets, trying to stay occupied until we get the news. I'll reply with more depth when I can. Somewhat scattered now.

H will be leaving his particular job but his company wants to try to place him in another division or department. They are going to get back to him in 2 weeks with possible options. Then we can decide to stay with that company or leave it -- hopefully with a healthy severance package.

I'm sorry that you will have this hanging around for another 2 weeks L4 and the stress and worry that the outcome could bring, but this could be a great chance for a fab new start for your H. I know it can be hard to see it like this - I hope he can see the silver lining

L4,

It was suggested to me that I read your post. So here I am. Have been trying to send you a PM but it says disabled. Do you know why? You can read my post under Emotional but I have asked that it be moved to GQII.

I'm sure I wasn't a great wife before. I'm sure there are ENs I wasn't meeting. But especially before the A, I felt like I was fighting for this M alone. I felt that H was so comfortable and was so sure I'd never leave, that he didn't feel he had to work at it. FOM came along, I gave FOM my attention, H noticed that I wasn't putting in effort any more (he didn't know the actual reason why), I threatened to end the M, and then H started paying attention. That may not be the sequence of events as H remembers them, but it's how I remember it.

I feel like it's a fine balancing act between being the fun, non-whimpy, non-mopey, unattractive L4 and the sharing-my-pain-so-you-know L4. I've tried a little to share with him in recent weeks and haven't received the comfort I was looking for. Or I've told him things and he's turned it around and used these things against me in AOs. (You can see examples in this thread.)

I understand what is being said here. The past tells me little seems to come from sharing my hurts so it's just easier to suck it up and smile. But I hear that shouldn't matter and that I need to be open about what's going on inside of me. Don't tell H with the expectation of comfort or empathy, but tell him so that he knows what's happening with me. Be honest not in hopes of getting something from it.

I understand. I know I represent to H a lot of his pain and anxiety so it makes sense that it is hard to be around me. This is a flag for me though, because he/we did this a lot during our marriage problem years and I know from experience it hurts a relationship. It doesn't help one. Distance, in my opinion, does not make a heart grow fonder, which is why UA time is critical.

Thank you for dropping in, U_D.

I just now saw this post, Imon. I have so much going on today (a training in 2 minutes) but I will check in to see what your story is. (The PMs do not work, BTW.)

I don't know why you were told to come here, but I hope you are/were able to take something from the fabulous advice everyone has given me.

Looking4, I encouraged her to come here because of all the great advice and perspective that I've read on your thread since I've gotten here. To see that she's not alone, that others are walikng through the fire, too, to join the others who have reached the other side successfully.

OK I'm trying on my Mr. L4 hat to see if I can be helpful.

So you threatened to leave him while hiding an A from him. You used this threat to get him to change his behavior. Once he had made some changes, you dump this huge thing on him. Plus you tell him that you have kept another lie from him your entire marriage.

I get why he sees you as an accomplished liar and why he does not feel wanted or loved. I wish I could tell you how to restore the trust he had in you. Do you see that you have twice gotten him to make big commitments under false pretenses? And he never saw through your lies either time. I think he can't trust himself either.

Yes.

About 2 months after the A ended, I begged H for counseling (probably the 15th time in 3 years) and when he said nope, I left for the night. I returned the nex day and he said about 30 total words to me for three days. The third night after I had returned, he said he'd let me know if he would ever be "willing to think about counseling". Three weeks later he said he'd consider it only if I was giving him an ultimatum. I said I was out of answer and if we didn't do something to fix our M -- and I didn't have any ideas other then MC -- then something was going to have to change such as separation or living in separate bedrooms or something. I told him that if he had any other ideas, I was open to hearing them. He didn't offer any other than to keep going as we were. I told him that wasn't acceptable to me. A few days later he agreed to counseling.

That's what happened, all under the shadow of two previous betrayals that he didn't know about and two months into my withdrawal from my intense affair.

Could I have f**ked up his and our lives any more than I have?