If you are staying to work on your marriage, you need to be open to negotiation. You are so sure that you are right and your husband is wrong that you refuse to look at things from your husband's perspective. You just want him to do what you want. You are unwilling to negotiate anything specific. What can you husband do? Does he need to walk into the office that has the women in it with earplugs in his ears? Is he to turn around when he see one so he doesn't get trapped into hearing something personal? You want him to behave as you do. You don't want him to be himself. According to you, he has always been friendly to people (including women). He is no longer flirting in front of you out of respect for you. He is being open and honest when he is telling you about his day and you don't want to hear that he has had conversations with any women which will discourage honesty. Other than lie to you about his conversations at work, I am not sure what he can do if the people that he works with (including the women) approach him and have casual conversation that includes some personal info.

Absolutely. I do feel safe most of the time because my husband has put specific and clear EPs in place and has honored them. I couldn't have forced him to do any of them though. He did them for me because I needed them. He has offered additional EPs that I have not requested because he thought they might help me.

I still don't really understand specifically what you want your husband to change. Maybe he doesn't either. You know that he has to deal with women at work. He cannot control what he hears. What do you want him to do? Do you want him to not tell you about the women at work?

What specifically do you want?

Your feelings are hurt and you are mad. What must change? It is vague and general. Men need specifics.

I do not think i am, i think it is my definition of an alcoholic that is the issue.



His father's alcoholism did have a bad effect on my H. The things his mother did had a far worse effect and he never dealt with it at all. I know things about his parents that he does not know that would cause his world to come crashing down around him and everything that he grew up thinking would be knocked out of the water. But i was sworn to secrecy and i will not ever tell him the truth.


It has effected my kids as well.


Yes because i had to spend my whole day at a flea market selling things (from 7:00 am - 8:00 pm) and i had to unpack all of her stuff and re-pack all of her stuff and load it in the car. If we were not at a flea market selling her stuff we were at an auction (also an all day event) buying more stuff for her to sell at the next flea market. As a teenager this is not exactly a fun way to spend your entire weekend.

On the other hand if my dad had a day off and my mom did not have a flea market to go to, me and him would go do fun things. My mom did not want to go with us, she usually chose to stay home instead.

My parents were from a totally different generation where the women were dependent upon thier husbands (my dad was born in 1919 and my mom was bron in 1927).


We both had no friends when we got together and we found things that interested both of us in the begining and have done them all along. We still both have no friends besides each other.

I have girl friends that i talk to here at work and i talk to my nieces who are my age but i do not have any friends that i hang out with outside of work and neither does my H. We are each others best friend and we hang out with each other.



That is where my issue lies, i do not know how to get to this point.



And that is why i said that i could kick my own [censored]. I do not complain about ti to him though, i keep it all to myself. I do not want him to feel like he can not be O&H with me.

I bring it up when the moment happens to appear from a conversation and that ususally is what has worked best with my H through out the years.


[qoute=TJD]However, you have stated you don't want to change and don't have to. You want him to change. That makes it all his fault and none of yours.

I think you need to change. I think you need to learn how to negotiate. I think you need to challenge your thinking. [/quote]

I do not think that it makes it all his fault and not mine. I have just as much blame in him not having his EPs in place as he does.

My point is what good is it going to do me to leave or to insist upon things if he does not enthusiastically agree as well.

We have proven over the last 25 years that we do not agree on this issue.

What i specifically want is for him to only interact with the women at work on a business only basis.

He really only needs to spend a total of two minutes in their office to turn in his paperwork. How in the hell in two minutes can you find out so much about a person unless you are "chatting" with them.

I do not want him to "chat" with other women at all. As i have said many times before i do not "chat" with other men at all and i never have and i expect the same thing out of him.

How would you know the difference if he really stopped the chatting or just stopped telling you about it?

I just do not see this as simply as you do i guess, i feel he has to go out of his way to talk to these women, i do not feel that it is part of his "normal" work and that he only goes into their office to "chat" with them. Because they have a drop box in their office he probably could go in there and drop off his paperwork, return to his office, and not even see the women.

I do not think it is that they "chat" with him. They have each other to "complain to" all day long as they are in the office together all day long.

I did not then and i do not now think my dad drank "too much". Because i do not drink at all i have a very strict definition of an alcoholic which is if you drink even one alcoholic beverage on a daily basis you are IMO an alcoholic.

I also believe there are different degrees of alcoholics.


I certainly did not try to replace my mother, me and my dad had a father and daughter relationship all the way. I did not try to get along my life was perfectly happy as a child. I did not like having to take my mom places all the time just because i was a teenager and would much rather have been with my friends.


I truly do not think it has anything to do with alcohol at all.

I have just worked in way too many offices that were chatty. It is probably because I am chatty too. I have always talked to people at work - men and women. I worked in an auto dealership for decades and there are mostly men there. I always chatted with co-workers to pass the time. I always chatted with the office girls as well to be friendly. I would not have ignored them if they were men. I have always found that it pays in business to be cordial and friendly with everybody from the guys that wash the cars to the general manager. I always enjoyed talking to people. I can totally get how easy it is to talk at work. I have worked at very few places that were not chatty. I didn't like them. It always stopped at chatting for me though. I never went to lunch with any of the men. I never went out after work either. I also never had an affair. But I am definitely guilty of chatting with the men and women at work. I was a salesperson and later a finance director. Both jobs required that I was able to chat with everybody - which I did!

I too have worked in chatty offices and i too talk to both the men and women in my office and i am sure that the men would consider me a friendly person as i like to talk to people as well.

I still do not know any persoanl information about the men in my office. I know tons of stuff about the women but not about the men.

My H has always worked (until this job) pretty much in a place with two or three employees so he is very accustomed to not being chatty while at work because there was not anyone to be chatty with. Since he has limited time in the building and is not located in their office i still do not feel like he needs to be "chatting" with them at all PERIOD.

So if he started lying about it to make you happy, how would you know the difference? I am asking because that is a real possibility. If it were me, I would rather encourage him to continue being open and honest about the conversation. The only choice you are really giving him is to start lying to you so he doesn't lose you. You already know that he doesn't think he is doing anything wrong. There is also no way for you to verify that he is no longer chatting. I have ways to verify all the EPs that are in place for us.

And this is my reasoning for wanting to leave. I do not want to have to verify anything. I want him to put these EPs in place because i need them in place. I do not say anything to him now regarding his "chatting" with the other women so that he will continue to tell me about it, but i still do not think he should be doing it and i do not think he should have been doing it from the beginning of our marriage.

And it still does not make me feel safe and their is no negotiation other than it totally stopping that will suit me. So there is no point in trying to POJA it because then he will just start lying to me.

The only chance i have is to change his mind about it being necessary.

And i do not think i am asking that much from him i really do not, i do not feel the same way that you do by saying that is the only choice i have given him.

He has the choice to change because it would make his spouse feel safer and that should be the only reason he needs to make that change.

So you are going to punish him and leave him for not being able to guess at what you want?

You want him to totally stop something that he doesn't think is a problem and that you haven't told him about -and you need this to feel safe but am hoping that he figures it out all by himself because guys are so naturally intuitive? I am starting to feel sorry for your husband. He doesn't have a chance. He really doesn't.

But you don't want to tell him about it because you don't want him to lie?

You haven't given him a choice. He thinks he just needs more time to "work" on the marriage. I promise you that he has no clue what you want or need. That is not his fault at all!

He has the choice to change because it would make his spouse feel safer and that should be the only reason he needs to make that change. [/quote]Your poor husband is going to work on the things that he thinks matter because you won't tell him what you want him to do because it can't be verified anyway. I don't know how you can expect him to change for you without at least telling him what it is needs changing. I don't know what else to say. I guess I just don't get it.

Well maybe that is the case maybe i don't really want things to work out.

He knows my feelings as far as his "friendliness" goes and has known them since the beginning of our marriage to me this is not any different.

And i do not say it directly to him because i do not want him to lie about his activities. But when i can interject something into the conversation that says i don't know that much about the people i work with or why do you know where she lives and things like that i would think he would get the hint after a while.

And maybe i am expecting too much from him but i do not think so i think he should not be talking to other women without me having to say anything because he had a damn affair.

I know he would not want me to talk to other men at all if it were the other way around, why can't he just try to put himself in my shoes for a change.

I think i am getting no where fast here, i must be the only person in the world who thinks the way i think. Maybe MB is not the place for me. Maybe there is not a place for me. Maybe i should just give up and move out and quit worrying about it all the time. I think a lot of things......

I am sorry that you are still so torn. I am not trying to be insulting. If you want to have a happy marriage, you have to be radically honest with your husband. You are not doing that by hinting. You have to be clear. Lovebusting hints don't count and they don't motivate either. Your husband loves you. You love your husband. Stop being right and just talk to him.

sc, maybe the reason you're getting so much traffic right now is that a lot of people see something you're not seeing; that could be a great notifier that you are near some sort of breakthrough or realization, if people keep pushing you to think outside the box on this.

Every time I started getting pushed like this on my thread, it was because I had hit one of my roadblocks, my 'safety zones' that I used to feel better about things, but which kept me from progressing to the next level of understanding...and change.

I tried really hard to prove to everyone that they didn't know what they were talking about. But truth is, they DID see something I wasn't getting. Until I did get it, too. (thank goodness)
Worth a thought.

Put the issue of EP's on the negotiating table in concert with your move out date of June 1.

Your H asked you if you would consider pushing the date out. Do you know why he asked? What is in it for him? Knowing this gives you information to negotiate with.

Tell him that you made a mistake to agree to pushing the date out without bringing up the EP's.

Tell him how YOU feel and that you are willing to push the date out if the EP's can be addressed in a way that is good for both of you.

Ask him if he has any ideas.

Put the issue on the negotiating table. Don't tell him what to do but how you feel and that if the two of you can find an enthusiastic agreement you are willing to push the date out.

Another example of your indirect communication. I call it beating around the bush.

Why do you communicate in an indirect way? Are you worried about being rejected?

I think it's a strong possiblity that the betrayed spouse will never completely "get over it". I think it's a matter of degree. The offending spouse certainly has a duty to be transparent and to have a genuine heart change (which isn't always easy) but necessary. The offending spouse needs to try to live with understanding with the betrayed spouse and seek to meet their needs. Trust is a huge issue and it is essential for any relationship to survive and I believe the offending spouse needs to do everything they can to restore the trust. I don't think any reasonable request made by the offended spouse should be ignored. Transparency is extremely important.

When it is all said and done the offended spouse may never get over it or may get over it in varying degrees. As the offending spouse I realize I created this monster and have to live with the consequences of my spouse never getting over it completely.

The offending spouse is a saint for even trying to get over it. I do believe that the bible gives an out to the offended spouse and allows for divorce if the offended spouse is unable to forgive (get over it). However, this is only available to the offended spouse. The offending spouse must and should do everything they can to assist the offended spouse to heal. The Lord commands us to forgive all but it is understood by God that the offended spouse may not be able to do so.

That's just the way it is.

Just be who you are. Be true to who you are, both good and bad.

Don't let any negative self talk happen. Don't tell yourself you are bad, that you are defective, that you are hopeless, don't tell yourself negative things. Don't destroy yourself.

See this as an opportunity to improve. Tell yourself that people are telling me things that will make me better and I am grateful for that. Tell yourself that if I do these things I will improve myself and become a better person. Be positive. That a part of you will die, the weak or less good parts, but another part of you will grow. It is about growth and improvement and not destruction

But, still be you.

Don't let the negative experience of an affair destroy you.

This is all an opportunity for you to grow and improve. How you look at things and what you tell yourself about yourself is critically important.

I don't think you are the only one who thinks the way you do. If I were you, I wouldn't negotiate on this point either.

I could get long winded on this particular point, and I will if you are interested.

But I guess to me, it seems like there is a bigger issue. I follow your thread from time to time and I get confused as to what you want. It seems to me that you want a happy M with your FWH, but you are resigned to the fact that it will never happen. I can't help but feel that mindset hinders your progress.