rc2009, Steve meant to stop talking about it AFTER you have all the information. You don't have all the information yet.

Requirements for Recovery

If you don't get all the details you won't recover and you won't be able to trust her. So make sure Steve understands a) you don't know all the details and b) she is playing trickle truth with you.

Thanks guys, I have already started preparing my notes for Steve Monday morning.

There are several pieces of advice that new posters get when they first show up here. Most of it on how to end an WS's A. The other I sometimes see is to wait 6 months or so before deciding whether to end the marriage or not.

In the last few months, my FWW has amazed me on how loving and kind and intentional her love for me is. Even though I appreciate it, it doesn't seem to register in my LB. I just can't seem to get past the disrepect of 2 years of A and additional 10 years of lies to hide it.

I have read "Who Switched Off My Brain?", and numerous books on forgiveness. I believe I have forgiven my W. I think I understand how devious satan is and how he moves us gently to acts normal people would have considered unthinkable previous.

I am just not sure that I want a W that I have been forced unknowingly to share with another man.

What I have never seen discussed is this. What should the criteria be for deciding whether you stay or go?

If she has recommitted to the marriage, stay with her. She needs your support. At the same time you need to know the extent of her waywardness. You have to know how to prevent future damage to your marriage.

I would like to repeat the message of Mr Coors (Beer manufacturer): He said that marriage is a union of two forgivers. He learned this truth after he had made acquaintance with the Lord in his life. Do not make it hard for her to tell you the truth. Let her know that she is forgiven already on the basis of your present relationship.

Another thing that Mr Coors suggested is that if you change wives - you change troubles. Ups and downs always happen in marriage. God willing, it's time for some up!

I have been struggling to determine this myself. When WW first dropped the 'bomb' on the M, saying she wanted to leave, my first reaction (this was before D-Day) was to let her go. She seemed resolved and determined (and even not befogged she has always been very resolved and determined). "No chance for reconciliation," she told me.

Then I came here and learned about the "alien takeover," the Fog, and the Script -- you know, the commonalities all WS display about having an A. My own resolve wavered.

Last night, after again not sleeping well, I weighed my first response to the more recent forgiving self, and heard the echoes of a number of posters here: Do I really want to re-connect with someone who deceived, lied, cheated, broke every vow and principle she claimed to hold, and go through the long period needed to recover and rebuild the marriage? Is the marriage really all that I thought it was?

It came to me (also through someone else's post) that I too, have been in a fog. That WW, who throughout our M espoused principles such as "do the right thing," "establish healthy boundaries," and being "fiercely loyal" and now has revealed herself to be willing to abandon all these principles in a selfish attempt to "feel good" and toss everything and everyone under the bus. Do I really want someone like that in my life?

I am aware that I'm still in my BS "flip-flop" stage. But today I'm feeling more and more like it isn't worth trying to re-establish a relationship with someone who could so easily and so unfeelingly turn on her supposedly most important relationships.

Not a thread jack; simply words to think on.

RC,

To stay or go? The time honored and much asked question. I would surprised if Shakespeare didn't write a play about this very thing.

Oddly, I would suggest that you consider something Harley says about the Policy of Joint Agreement, POJA. He claims even a divorce should be POJA'd. It seems to me that you need to discuss your feeling about this with your W. Something she did not do when she had her affair.

You be Open and honest, after all it is not only your life that will be affected but those of your family and friends. The answer may well be yes. And if it is please note that all Harley has ever claimed is that more marriages would survive and flourish using his system, not all marriages. If you have given it time, you have talked with your W, you family and the decision is to end the marriage, then do so with confidence you have done the right thing.

However, YOU KNEW THAT WAS COMING RIGHT? you might want to consider some things. One is what your W has learned in the intervening 12 years since the affair started. You might want to discuss with her how she sees things now. It is possible that while she made an ergregious mistake, she has learned from it and become a much better woman than the one you married. It is possible that indeed via a very painful and torturous route you now find yourself married to a woman that "gets it" and will do what it takes to be the kind of W you would seek if you were single and looking for a life mate.

RC, people change, people learn, people grow, and some...don't. Your issue, it seems to me, is to decide if she has grown into the woman you would seek for a mate. She was not before, but she could be now.

Please think about it.

God Bless,

JL

rc2009, in some cases, the resentment may be impossible to overcome. Yours may be one of those cases, but I sure would not make a decision on that now. Memories usually fade over time and if you are on the right track, those bad memories can be replaced with new great ones. You are way too early in this process.

You may decide to end your marriage, but only you can make that decision for yourself.

Dr Harley talks about overcoming resentment in this article, that you might find helpful:

Coping with Infidelity: Part 4 Overcoming Resentment

I don't come here very often, but I am always glad when I do. I will get back later to respond to everyone's response. Thanks in the meantime.

JL,

Your reply has left me speechless. For 2 days I have tried to think of an appropriate response. My W is a better person than anytime during our marriage. She is a better W than anytime during our marriage. That is why I am puzzled at how I can admire her effectiveness in showing me she loves me and it lacks the inspiration for me to accept that love. During this time we are conversing to assure that we are meeting each other needs. She assures me I am also meeting her needs. I will continue to process your reply. I never believed the answer that I sought could be quantified, only that there had to be criteria to be able to evaluate.

Thanks

Here is an issue I see with your answer.

IT doesn't lack anything. IT just IS.

What you are describing is not what your wife is doing, but what you are doing. In a deep subtext level, you seem to be saying that you want her to jump over barrels and through hoops to carry you away into euphoria and forgetfulness.

But IMO that has to come from you, not her. You describe a perfect FWW, yet you still have issues. YOU still have issues. Do you hear it?

Stop waiting for her to fix you.

Mel,

Your reply has given me much trouble. I certainly have resentment. I am not sure how you would start this process without feeling resentment. But I don't believe that this is the reason that I debate with myself over the decision I am trying to make.

I know a lady that after her husband was caught SA a child, she stayed with him. I am not comparing my W to this creep, just saying that situations change. Between Harley's book and Beth Moore's "When Godly People Do Ungodly Things", I understand how she found herself in a situation that neither thought could happen. And while I can forgive her, I battle with myself whether I want to continue. I am not convinced it is because of the resentment.

Like JL's post, yours will get additional thought.

Thanks for everyones response

I have basically ZERO resentment. That is because I had an RA and divorced my fwxw, then partied like a rockstar til I felt "compensated" for her A. Then, and only then, did I return to her fully willing to give our R another chance. Its not the MB way and I'm not recommending it, but I, like you, couldn't see any way to stay w/ her w/ the fierce amount of resentment. DUDE

Catperson,

I have commended my W on her heroric effort at showing her love for me. I have not placed any abnormal expectations on her or our relationship All I am trying to say is that nothing is registering in my love bank because of efforts. Maybe it is disappointment; mayber Mel is right and it's resentment.

I think it would be asinine to think either one of us will forget what happened. I think it appropriate that you describe her as the perfect FWW. Included with that description would be a W that I had to share with another man for 2 years. I think that is my issue.

Yes, but you made the decision to stay with her. You could have left her but you decided that you could handle dealing with her infidelity. So, part of the onus is now on you. It sucks, but it's true.

Not trying to dis you, but to point out that if you are sitting back and waiting for her to create some magical spell to erase your pain through her extraordinary efforts...then you'll never be happy. Part of it has to come from you. Call it forgiveness, call it grace, call it whatever you want, but there it is.

Were you around when ottert was raging? His wife was really holding his recovery back, but at the same time, the enormous chip on his shoulder kept him from seeing any progress she DID make. And today, it seems, after extensive work with the Harleys, he is still mad. There's nothing his wife can do about that. It has to come from him.

Hope that made sense.

Yes I was around when ottert was around. Only occasionally did I check in on him. And yes, he drove me nuts. The difference is ottert was making demands of his wife. I am not.

We went through one counselor before we got to Steve Harley. The only advice I have had trouble following is in spite of telling him I felt I knew about 70% of what happened, he has asked me to stop talking or asking about the A. I have been about 90% compliant with this request, but 100% compliant with the rest of his counsel. Wife has too. I am not waiting for a spell to overcome this, just for the process to work out. Maybe part of it is impatience. What I decided after D-Day was that I wanted to see if it could be worked out. Even a year after D-Day I still feel it is a question worth revisiting.

How long ago did Steve tell you to not ask about the A? Did he say for how long you would have to refrain from asking? I can't imagine he meant for you to drop it for forever. Maybe that's what's holding you back from recovery. You're turning into a Giver, and you can't do that forever.

Also, what is your wife's disposition now? Is she really remorseful? What are things like?

The first time was about 5 weeks ago. He reiterated his point in a session last week. He did not explain how long this would last.

My W is very remorseful. Very contrite. Since D-Day very reluctant to share details of the A. Even then only though my questions or by Steve's request. Very bittersweet for me as I have occasionally ask her about the last 10 years. She is non-confrontational. She shares things now that she says she would not have shared before. Most of the time, I do not understand why she would have a fear of sharing it.

Again, on her own, making extraordinary effort to show her love. She would tell you that she is appreciative of the grace I have shown her.

Cat,

I'll admit how reluctant I have been to post at times. Compared to most, my FWW (even though it is 10 years later) could not possibly do any more than she has to show her regret and how much she wants to spend the rest of her life with me.

Most of the time it has been how she described details more than the details that have bothered me. Such as "If I had known it was a big deal we sat on the couch with his arm around me, I would have told you."

rc,

I forgave my WS of her affair because I compartmentalized it. (And let me clarify, she is XW because of A#2, I got through #1)

It is a HUGE thing to forgive. My approach, to get rid of all the resentment, was the old eat the elephant one bite at a time.

The "act" is a whole conglomerate of things to forgive: the cuddling + the emotional attachment + the physical penetration + the lying + the disrespect ... all wrapped up into one big package that we have to swallow, that we have to forgive.

So I did it a piece of time by looking ONLY at that piece.

Example: (Excuse the frankness of the statment) Another man had his penis where it did NOT belong, in my wife. That's a piece of it. Is THAT what I couldn't get past? I looked at it another way - what if my wife had been raped? Would I hold THAT against her? In my compartmentalized definition, it was the same. THAT I wouldn't hold against her. And I swallowed a piece. (Took a while...)

Next up: The emotional attachment. I blocked out the other stuff. If she had become "too close" to a coworker, not physical, just say an EA... THAT would be bad. But she had seen the error of her ways, detached from that individual, and was reattached to me. I focused on only that portion of it, blocking out the other stuff it was dragging along, and forgave that.

And I kept going like that, focusing on a small portion of the sum that was the entire transgression. And ate the elephant one piece at a time. And I DID honestly forgive her for it. Completely. (well, eventually completely )

Anyway, it worked for me.

RC,

I sort of like NCW's advice, but I think the elephant I would be chomping on would be the one that you brought home.

Let's start with resentment. There is a famous quote that goes

You seem to be sipping from the Hemlock RC.

However, let's consider why that might be, sort of NCW's approach.

1. It is possible you feel you are letting yourself down if you take her back into your heart? She made a fool of you. She cut you off. She really made a mess of your life. "I'm sorry hardly seems adequate.

2. You still don't trust her and you don't know how to regain that.

3. You are trying to get back to where you were before her A, and you cannot.

4. You know you were fooled, but given that you think there is more to know, you feel like a fool to forgive her and move on.

My suggestion is to really think on these things. And if these or other reasons start to adequately address some of your deepest thoughts/fears, you need to talk with her about this.

You are in withdrawal right now and you fear opening up to allow her deposits to come back. That is my thought on this.

Finally, I think the 10 years of lies is outweighing the good W she has become and you have deep concerns because you know you are "defenseless" against her if you open your heart to her again. It is hard to rip open your chest, take out your heart, and hand it to her. She may promise to take good care of it but will she? Is that your fear?

Finally, something positive for you to consider. You are not rebuilding the old marriage. You should not try to get the old marriage before her A's back. You are in fact starting a new marriage with a woman that has grown, learned, failed, and learned from that failure. You should look at in that vein if you decide to stay.

You should talk with her about plans, plans to protect you. Ask her how she would handle these things if she were in your place? What would she want from you if she were in your place? How can you two forgive, but NEVER FORGET. To forget in my mind means you run the risk of having to learn lessons all over again. I am of the open that "forgetting" is the worst thing you can do.

RC, you have some decisions to make, and the first is do you want to try. If you do, you two need to realy POJA this thing.

Those are my thoughts.

God Bless,

JL