Hello Looking4,

It sounds like things are so very, very hard for you right now with your father being injured and things being so difficult with your H...

Please know that Mrs.Flint and I will continue to pray for you and your family.

I want you to read the quotes you wrote again...

Do you know what your H's greatest fear is?

If he is anything like me it wasn't the fear that you will CHEAT on him again...

I knew Mrs.Flint wasn't going to do THAT...

IT WAS THE FEAR THAT I WOULD NEVER SEE PASSION OF ANY KIND IN MY WIFE AGAIN!!!

YOUR H IS AFRAID HE WILL ALWAYS BE COMPARED IN A NEGATIVE LIGHT TO YOUR AFFAIR PARTNERS...

YOU KNOW WHY?

BECAUSE YOU WERE PASSIONATE ABOUT THEM...BUT NOT ABOUT HIM.

Read the quotes again, how you are VERY careful not to get angry, to not penetrate to where the LIVING flesh lies.

WITH YOUR H YOU ARE RESERVED, DIGNIFIED, CAUTIOUS NOT TO CAUSE A FIGHT...

OR TO ACTUALLY LET HIM KNOW WHAT YOU ARE SO ANGRY AND HURT ABOUT...

IF MRS.FLINT HAD DONE THAT WE WOULD NOT BE TOGETHER.

IF SHE DIDN'T FEEL STRONGLY ENOUGH ABOUT OUR LOVE TO GET ANGRY AND FIGHT ANYONE WHO TRIED TO DESTROY US I DIDN'T WANT TO BE WITH HER!!!

AND THAT INCLUDED ME!!!

MRS.FLINT TOOK ON ALL COMER'S THAT CHALLENGED OUR LOVE...

INCLUDING FAMILY, FRIENDS...AND....ME.

MRS.FLINT DEFENDED OUR LOVE SAVAGELY AND WITH POSSESSIVENESS. IT WAS HERS AND NOBODY WAS GOING TO TAKE IT FROM HER...

SHE LOST HER CHILDHOOD FRIEND FOREVER BECAUSE SHE STOOD UP TO HER FOR ME. HER FRIEND WAS NOT A FRIEND OF THE MARRIAGE AND WAS TRYING TO BELITTLE MY EFFORTS TO SAVE THE MARRIAGE AND TELLING HER SHE WASN'T AT FAULT.

MRS.FLINT TOLD HER GOODBYE.

WHEN MRS.FLINT AND I DISCUSSED THE AFFAIR SHE KNEW THE DEPTH OF MY ANGER AND PAIN AT AN AFFAIR WITH MY OWN BROTHER...

AND I KNEW OF HER ANGER AT ME IN THE MARRIAGE THAT PROVIDED THE FUEL FOR IT...

AND WE FOUGHT...

FAIRLY AND WITH THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH WHAT WE WERE MAD ABOUT.

TALK TO DR. HARLEY...

Ask him if it's time for you to actually try some radical honesty of a little different kind.

Maybe you will tell your H what you are actually REALLY, REALLY MAD at him for...

And he may tell you WHAT he actually is REALLY, REALLY MAD at you for too...

And maybe THEN you will tell each other that you REALLY, REALLY do LOVE each other...

and NEED each other...

and each others eyes out.

God bless.

Jim

L4, I can relate to a lot of what you said. You're not alone. There is a lot I typed and deleted, about learning to live life on life's terms, but I fear saying the wrong thing to you here. So I will instead ask you about your self-care. Ask you about O&H, how about drive-by O&H? There was a great article here about responding to someone as if they had made a thoughtful request, to think through whether you are enthusiastic or not, and respod appropriately, and also letting them know that you don't like how they said that to you. But I can't find it this morning. How would you feel about calling the Harleys to help you put together a plan. What would make you enthusiastic about that?

Today is a brand new day.

Random thoughts...

I haven't seen any posts from 6YL. Are you around, 6YL? If I remember correctly, your son and grandson were going to be leaving for college (I think?) so I hope you're doing okay.

V... What can I do to convince you to start up a thread again? You write so well and your recovery story is one I've loved following.

I'm digging that MB now offers spell-check as you type with the red squiggly lines. I definitely put it to good use.

Among the posts that I'm most disappointed I lost, was the one that I wrote after my second session with Steve in late May or June. That was such a turning point for me in my own recovery and it seemed to offer a lot to others too -- both BSs and FWWs. I've been trying to re-create it in my mind, but I'm not doing it justice and I'm really bummed about it.

Where are Sere and BB?

Got to see Dad briefly on Monday. He's in a fully restrictive neck brace, his walking is very slow and laborious, and I have never seen such a solid, deep, purple bruise from one's wrist to his shoulder, but seeing him was the best thing. Unfortunately, because of this bloody cold I've had since Sunday night, I can't be with him since his meds weaken his immune system. My mother has banned me from their home so I haven't been able to help or visit with him nor my sister who is in town. But he's alive and he's home. Hallelujah!

This means a lot, Jim. Thank you both.

This was indeed the case, up until about a month ago. I thought I was supposed to keep my self-healing to myself and not drag H into my hurt -- not put him in the position of responsibility for my comfort since I caused this. But, I took heed of what some of you wrote not long ago.

H and I had an exchange and I wrote it up on my computer thinking I may share it here. The site went down and with so much happening around me, I hadn't thought of it until I read your comment. It's been a while since I've shared the details of how H and I are relating, but reading your post, Jim, I figure I'll go there.

Saturday morning (October 3) I let it be known to H that I desired SF. H said he wanted only to cuddle. As he held me, I asked H if he was attracted to me. He said that was a loaded question. I re-phrased and asked if he found me attractive. He paused, said yes, and then he added that I know how he feels about me when I get heavy. He said he knows it makes him sound mean and cold, but he has a hard time wanting me physically when I�m heavy. He said he's not the only one and that 50% of the men out there would also think I�m too fat and wouldn�t find me attractive. He said he just wants to know if I�m going to let myself get up to 170 or 200� (I�m currently 154 lbs, 5�5�.) He said he was asking only so that he can prepare himself and get used to it.

I told H that thanks to MB, I know my body size is a real thing for him. And I�m sorry it�s a need of his that I�m not meeting. It�s been really hard for me because exercising is what works best for keeping in shape, and with the two jobs and now working outside of the home, finding that 90 minutes to workout several days a week is very hard. I told H that if he has any suggestions on how I can get back on track, eat better, grocery shop better or anything, I�m open to his ideas.

H asked how come I got thin for FOW but I won�t for him. I said that I had started on the health kick before I knew of FOM�s feelings for me, however, he's right in that I did hit it with more vigor in large part because of FOM. H asked why, since FOM was attracted to me when I was heavier, did I bother getting in shape? I told H that FOM made me feel desired, sexy, and valued. I was living on a lot of adrenaline and when I feel good, I take care of myself. It�s a catch-22. I feel good and I want to look good. And when I look good, I feel good. Of course the opposite is true too � when I feel bad I look bad, and when I look bad I feel bad.

We proceeded to get into a tense conversation. One that made me leave his embrace but not one I felt I needed to leave all-together.

H then said kind of sarcastically, �Based on what you�re telling me, you�re not feeling good about yourself � because you�re not exercising.�

And it was then that I started crying. I had my back to him and through the tears I let the dam burst. �I DON�T feel good about myself. I lied and cheated. How could I possibly feel good after what I've done? I broke my vows. I�m an honest person and I betrayed you. I�ve hurt people. I look at you every day and you don�t seem happy.

"My own husband doesn�t love me. In fact he says he doesn�t want to love me. He can't forgive me.

"You do nice things for me but then you call me a slut or tell me I�m stupid. Those things don�t make me want to get on a treadmill but frankly make me want to crawl under covers. I sleep little and cry a lot."

I continued, "My favorite time of the day is when we snuggle in the morning. In that moment I feel safe and that we are one. You are tender with me and warm and just hearing us breathe puts me at ease. Then the day and our life happens and I don�t know what I can tell you, what I can�t tell you, if I can show you my tears or my hurts, or if I need to keep up the brave front so you don't pity me or think I'm trying to manipulate you. I don't feel safe sharing my feelings with you because on a few occasions when I have told you of my sadness or worries, you�ve reacted with disinterest or you�ve used my words to hurt me. You tell me how I�m feeling or how I�m wrong. I don�t know how to help you and I feel horrible about that since I�m that one that brought all of this into our lives.�

I said more things too.

H was quiet and he seemed to be listening. He said he couldn�t think of a time when he dismissed me. I reminded him of a couple of times. He said he was sorry but he didn�t remember doing those things. (I hated the �but�.)

I felt like we were in a place where maybe we could really talk about us and our M but of course (ARGH!) we had to stop because I had to get DS8 to his soccer game. He got up with me, came around the bed and held my face in his hands and said, "You have a pretty face and very pretty blue eyes. I've always thought that. You're pretty, L4."

During the day H seemed contemplative. We went to a football game that evening and he was impatient and a bit grumpy on the way to the game. But as the night progressed, he relaxed more.

Our team pulled out an amazing win and H was in a great mood when we got home. We had amazing SF. Sunday he was so helpful around the house and with the kids. Monday he IM-ed me, sent me videos, and interacted with me� I didn�t know if what I had said Saturday made him think about things or if he was in a good mood because the Huskies won, but he was really nice for a few days and we got along well.

But several LBs � big and small � have happened since, making me think that if anything was absorbed about me from that Saturday talk, it�s either been dismissed or forgotten. I type this because by the next Saturday morning, the in-bed conversation was full of AOs and IBs and blame.

I think it's time to do this again.

From your lips...

Thank you, Jim.

Up all night, huh?

My wife and I prayed for you, both of you, this morning...

L4...drive by hugging. I'm going to catch up on all this.

xoxo

Hi L4,

I've been super busy. Sam and little Gabe (although recently the whole family finds it amusing to call him Gabe and me Grandpa) are off to medical school. We are looking at schools for my daughter and just having pretty good life.

Things with the GF are going but slowly. I'm seeing a therapist for myself because I do love her but I never have that onfire can't breathe feeling like I did in the beginning with xWW. Maybe I'm too old for that.

Sorry things are still hard for you and for your H. It does seem like you are in motion at least.

Hey L4

well I'm not digging anything. What squiggly lines? Where's mine? I'm gonna pout!

well you are pretty. Very. However I imagine it was wonderful to hear your DH say that to you. Yay for Mr L4

I don't have alot to offer you L4. I think there were some DJ's in your C with MrL4, I am not sure how important they are in the whole scale of things. I would suggest not saying things like "My H doesn�t love me" as he actually said he didn�t WANT to love you, which to me sounds like he DOES love you, whether he likes it or not at that moment.

I do think its great you got a chance to be very O&H and vulnerable to him, remember women need to be wanted and men want to be needed.

FWIW, I don't think I could bring myself to say that stuff about body size to my wife. I know there is this radical honesty deal and this seems in accord with it, but I'd just try to get past it if I were him. Imean, it's not like you are that overweight.
But, I do get his feeling re the effort you were willing to put into shaping up for the OM. How'd you go about it? Obviously, your body responds to whatever you were doing.
When I first discovered my XW's cheating, I was determined to get in really good shape. That was about 3 and a half years ago. I had read that the best way to go about it , after not having worked out that much in a long time, was to start with gentle exercise. Gradually, I got is really good shape. Just started real slow and tried not to get discouraged by how far below I was from what I had been as a kid.
Onething about that morning snuggling, L4. I know for me, even if my wife had been abusive(which was often), I would feel affectionate toward her in the morning(unless I'd had a bad dreram about the stuff she was doing). But, I think that in the morning, when my conciousness was not all there yet, my true feelings of love would come out. This would happen before my left brain could kick in, reminding me of her meaness.
So, you may take this as a good sign. He still has underlying love for you that has not died.It's just the stuff he has to deal with once he starts thinking stuffs it back down.
eventually, for me, even the unconcious feeling died , though , as the abuse escalated and continued for a long time.
In your case, I see no ongoing abuse, so, if your H suceeds in beating this, you have some love as a foundation.

Quick comment concerning spell check...

L4, did you recently begin using Firefox as your browser. That function has been there for quite a while in that package. I also have latest IE8 updates loaded and I don't get spell check in IE either.

I haven't upgraded Opera in a while, but don't recall seeing anything on that either.

BTW, in IE you can always load the Google toolbar which will give you a spell check that you need to run manually before you submit. It highlights misspellings, but of course spell checkers can't tell you if you used the wrong word entirely (ie: two, to, too or four, for, fro or from, form or there, their, they're etc)

[/lesson](not to be confused with lessen)

I have mozilla but no speling fuction <----------- as you can see

Lil,

Click on <Tools>/<Options>/<Advanced>/<General> and find a box labeled "Check my spelling as I type" and make sure the box is checked.

There ya go...

Mark

L4:

You post about a very good day, Oct 3rd, and all anyone wants to talk about is spell-check.

Z pointed out how his anger starts to rise as he cleans the sleep out of his eyes, but didn't really address your point.

Jim Flint gave the best example, which is WHY you posted that.

Jim's point is that you DO NOT show your husband the passion you showed your OM. And your Husband knows this. The discussion about weight shows this.

You have two jobs and all this other stuff going on that prevents exercise, but it didn't prevent it during your affair.

To solve all of this, I want to give you another 90 minutes each day just to exercise. Unfortunately, I can't do that either. So your stuck. So many things, and the exercise doesn't get done, and hubby ain't happy.

But guess what. You showed your husband your passion. You showed him your hurt, and how you understand how your actions hurt him and everyone else. He didn't run away. He didn't yell. He listened. And of course, you got interupted.

Wouldn't it be better if every morning could be like this? Where you could be honest, your H would listen, and you felt you were getting somewhere?

So, be honest. Your no longer mourning the loss of the OM, Your in mourning for the loss of many things in your marriage. And your H saw this on Oct 3rd. That is why the rest of the weekend went so good.

Then we backslide into old behaviors and habits. Her come the AO's, DJ' and LB's. Does it matter who started them? Yes. and NO.

Most of the above AO's, DJ's and LB's occur for one reason:

WE
JUST
WANT
TO
BE
HEARD

Your H heard you on Oct 3. Things were good. Then we start feeling that the other person who was listening so well, has stopped.

But usually it is US who has stopped listening.

Does your Husband "dismiss" you as you stated in your conversation? Yes. Because his perception of "dismissal" is way different that yours. You just have to learn a way to show him when you feel dismissed, and unheard. And point it out in a manner that allows him to realize how it is hurting you. Many times it has been proposed to you how to point out when your hubby is doing something wrong, and to protect your boundaries, it all in the implementation, right?

Its a slow process.

And to be called a slut and stupid certainly isn't incentive to jump on a treadmill. BTW, Flamingo has used much worse language with me. She doesn't now, and that is one of the differences. That indicates some level of recovery in our marriage.

Weight is one on the EN's. Its called physical attractiveness. 155 lbs at 5'5" ain't too bad, But you were a size 2 I believe. I can't remember what you may have gotten down to during your A. But that should be your goal. A exercise is one component of that, diet, is the other. Hows your diet? Know that one thing that bothered me about Flamingo, was her weight. I'm not one to ever insist on being with Twiggy. Flamingo is 5'7". When we met, she weighed about 135. After our son was born, I beleive that she got up to around 200. And since I was NOT the perfect H, she really had no incentive to lose the weight. So, with that and 100 other rationalizations on my part, I had an A. What does Flamingo weigh now? About 150. She wants to get to 135. She has completly revamped her diet, doesn't exercise, but is working slowly but steadily to her goal. She looks great. PA is very important to me. Her efforts have been rewarded by me every step of the way.

You need to look at it the same. Does he want you to lose weight? To show the passion? To show him something tangible for HIM, that you were doing for OM? Then do so. It might not be exercise, it might be reviewing the diet and eating differently. Flamingo has had serious sucess with "Eat Right for your Type" a diet book based on blood types. It changed her relationship with food and allowed her to really start making progress. I am really proud of her. The goal is to address HIS EN's. And if this is a big one for him, than it needs to be addressed. And only you can. Stubbornness on this indicates to him that your not really committed.

So I would recommend that you outline your plan for getting to a weight that he would like. "Mr. L4: Currently I weigh 150, and want to get to 130. Exercise i can do, with the time I have, is limited to Tuesdays, and Thursdays. And sometimes, depending on the kids schedules, Saturday and Sunday afternoons. I have looked at my diet as well. I am cutting back on xx, and yy, and going to watch my portion sizes. I will not be able to reach my goal in a week, or a month, but I hope to lose three pounds a month, for six months to get where I belong. Here is the support I need from you. Help with the kids on the designated exercise times, and by providing positive support when I am eating right and meeting the goals. Meeting the goals gets easier as time passes and more time is freed up, and I can exercise more."

Adjust as you need to fit your specific goals and your husbands needs. Show him the passion.

This stuff sucks, but its really about time. And your still only a year into this. It gets better.

LG

L4,

Why do you need 90mins?

Surely a good 30min fat burning a day would do the trick. (I got up at 7.15 this morning to do mine). Maybe we should take this to HH.

How's your dad doing?

luv ya

L4,

I haven't posted to you in a while, but recent posts struck a chord with me.

I think the attitude when provifing for spouse''s ENs plays into this. During my H's A, he said and did all kinds of wonderful, considerate things for the OW - willingly and with joy (yep, I read the emails and some of the notes). Now, when he has agreed to do very specific things to meet my ENs, he either does not do what he said he would do or lets me know that it is a chore. So, I am left with the similar sort of question, "Why was it so easy to do this for OW and such a chore for me?" That translates into resentment and lovebank withdrawals. Are you putting the same kind of effort into the M that you put into the A? If so, is it a chore? Seems as this might be the case from some of your previous posts.

Hi, Everyone.

I don't think you're ever to old for that, 6YL. I'm glad you're having a pretty good life. Good luck with the schools.

Thank you for the prayers, Mark and Mrs. Mark. That means a lot to me. And yes, I did just recently switch to using Firefox. (Why did I wait so long?)

Dad is doing phenomenal, ST. Thank you. He's a (barely) walking wonder. It's simply amazing.

For similar reasons as to why it's difficult to find time to work-out, I'm finding it hard to find time to respond to the wonderful recent posts regarding my H's EN for PA. I don't have time now because my full-time job is as Project Manager for a brand new website and we're launching Phase I of the site tomorrow morning.

So I'm working with the developer who is in Florida (I'm in Seattle) as we have so much to get uploaded and fixed on the site, I'm making/watching the chili, and I'm half watching the baseball game with H.

This topic is very important to me so I want to respond thoughtfully, in detail, and as always -- honestly.

In the meantime, I'm thinking of changing the title of this thread. Would that be too confusing after having it this name for over a year?

Thanks again. And I'll be back as soon as I can.

Quite a slew of new emoticons. The graphic designers at MB have been busy.

Mark, thank you for that post to Claygal with the rocks. Very good.

Just catching up L4.

You've had a lot on your plate again so please take care of yourself.

BB and I have been away in sunny Spain on holiday for 9 days and it's going to take me a while to catch up with everyone, but I just wanted you to know that I've been thinking about you, and BB and I are keeping you and your H in our thoughts.

Love to you, and get well soon to your H and especially your dad xx

I see a few DJs too, Lil, and in the moment, while I was trying to be aware of my words, I was also just gushing with many things I�d been holding back. I wasn�t as conscientious as I should have been. You�re right in that it wasn�t right for me to say, �My husband doesn�t love me.� I have to admit, thought, that if it wasn�t true, I wish he would have either corrected me or gotten mad that I�d said that untruth about him � as he usually does. Instead, he was quiet. Oh well.

I don't have a problem being honest with H. Before the A I did it often where my feelings were concerned. I've been more reserved as Jim and LG noted because I don't want H to worry about me when we've needed to focus our efforts on him. But I know I have to look at me too, now.