I agree Tabby. Having the WS around to mow the lawn or bake cookies feeds that warped sense of being needed. Most BSs would probably think it's ok to let the WS go pick up the dog sh&t in the back yard and fix the toilet because it save him the trouble but it still keeps the WS into thinking the BS can't survive without them. What seems practical to a BS is not that way to a WS. Or the WS has the impression that these things alone are just compensation so they relieve some of the A guilt.

IMHO, pride and arrogance on the part of the WS are behind most V/LTA's. I agree with others in that I think Harley gives 2 years as the timeline for A's where the AP's are in 100% contact. Which is basically the amount of time that it takes to really know someone. But after that time, to me, it's pride and/or arrogance.

By pride, I just simply mean people who won't admit they screwed up, so they continue the A, just so they can proove everyone wrong. By arrogance, I mean people who can't accept their life "works" like everyone else's. It's not they can't admit when they screwed up, they can't "see" when they screw up.

Usually what's required for people to overcome the above is when they "hit rock bottom". Unfortunately, some people never do. They just have enough luck or skill to avoid the bottom, so they continue on for years and years.

I think a M can recover from a V/LTA, but it is difficult. I think the BS really has to master the "loving detachment" part of things.

This soooo describes my WH. Yep, pride and arrogance despite the imbalance. It makes no sense if comparing the positives vs. the negatives but he plows on leaving a wake of destruction behind.


I soooo believe this. Thus the quote "Pride comes before the fall." Would love to see a thread of just "falls" so I can see that this really happens instead of just in theory.

I agree with the above. In my case it is pride and arrogance that drives the LTA. I believe that WH was OFFENDED when I asked him to leave. And yet he is in no hurry to divorce...

Doesn�t look as though he will get tp rock bottom financially any time soon although emotionally who knows....
But I also think it might be too late now.

I understand the sentiment.

Like I said, sometimes the WS never hits rock bottom.

But I do see some (maybe a lot) of threads here where the BS is (at least in part) keeping that from happening. They keep enabling the A, and they don't even realize it. I think that's because enabling can be done in very subtle ways and it's different with each WS. For some, arguing with them enables the affair, for others, not arguing with them enables the affair, etc., etc.

It's weird, but a V/LTA, has to mean the WS wants (and is getting) something from the BS. Sometimes it's just hard to figure out what that it is. But I think once a BS does figure it out, then there is a path out of the mess. Take whatever "that" is away and the BS will either divorce or end the A. However, some BS's may be to afraid to take the risk assocaiated with doing that.

Additionally, for some BS's (myself included, at times) this is not in our nature because we can't let go of the concept of reciprocity. We keep thinking if we just treat the WS nicely, or fairly, or whatever, that eventually they will reciprocate. They don't. WS's do not seem to respond to positive reinforcement, only negative punishment.

I agree with you and the fact that WH pays for all the house expenses is probably what is enabling him. But I have been trying to sell the house and move out on my own for over a year.... nothing much more I can do about that.

Rpynne I completely agree with you. And it's easier said than done for a BS to stop enabling the affair. Especially when there are children involved as even if you do have an IM, you still inadvertently pass information back and forth through your kids.

I also think it gets more difficult with time. The BS actually settles into a pattern where they allow the WS to get their needs met - knowingly or unknowingly. This probably also stems from being afraid to take the risk of complete darkness at the beginning. The thing is, you have the greatest impact when you go completely dark all at once, rather than gradually removing yourself from their lives.

I definitely agree that easing them out is not good, I really think that if I had guts enough in the beginning to boot WH out and divorce him things might have worked out differently, but as a BS I just was so in shock and scared that I tried to hang on to what I had. I still am. And it has been more detrimental than helpful.

It definitly takes a strong person to save their Marriage, and I dont think I was or am strong enough.

But if not for MB I would probably be still goin to family things with a WH, listening to fogbabble, being hurt by it, really enabling so much that I would be profoundly hurting myself, not working on myself and taking scraps just to have WH in my life while he treated me like dirt. So no matter what I know Plan B helped me and probably would have really helped my M if I could have stuck to it more strictly.

You and me both stillhere! In fact, I think part of the reason I'm still here is so that I know this system cold in case I ever need it again. It's really easy to look back from where I sit now and see what I did wrong. The worst thing about it is that the success comes from the process, not the outcome. Even though I gave up on my M fairly early, my personal recovery took far too many hits everytime I strayed from the program.

Yeah Tabby, I guess we'll now everything for next time huh? and I guess we are both helping others here too. Maybe, we will save someone elses Marriage....

We can be the poster children of what not to do when doin the plans...

rprynne:

I think you were right about the "loving detachment" post, but wrong about the punishment of the WS.

My W's VLTA lasted 11 years. It lasted so long, and they tried so hard 2 be "just friends" for so long after that, precisely because they only saw each other once or 2wice a year after ex Mrs Meat made him move the family 2 states away in 1995.

In the past 8.75 years since d-day, I've tried all kinds of things 2 help end the contact. Not surprisingly, everything I tried was interpreted as punishment, whether it was intended 2 be or not (sometimes it was!).

I firmly believe it's not right 2 want 2 punish the WS, or even 2 try 2 force them 2 make decisions. That's their problem, and frankly the BS shouldn't want a WS "back" that doesn't choose 2 come back of their own free will. This is a separate issue from telling the truth about what's going on 2 people who have the right 2 know (exposure). And it's NOT enabling, though it usually looks like it 2 hard-line MB methodologists who MUST see results at specific points in time.

I was told early on, by JL, that since my W's affair lasted 11 years, it might take that long for recovery. It's not been that long, but it did take a long time for my W 2 wake up (and she's still at it).

Detaching with love - really, disengaging myself from the bullshifty-eyed drama - has been the best thing I could have ever done. It's a process that I had 2 go through, and it's left me a happy camper capable of watching the recovery process without a stake either way in the outcome. If we recover a "traditional marriage" at the end of this, great! If she were 2 have another affair (extremely unlikely, because she is waking herself up, and she's appalled at what she did), my choice would be simple AND easy.

Regarding most (but not all) VLTAs I'm aware of. They take a long time 2 end, and probably less than 50% of the time (maybe much less) are they worth trying 2 recover a marriage from.

-ol' 2long

The seeds for exWW's affair were planted two years ago with deep EA and possible PA beginning 18 months ago with D-Day 15 months ago. ExWW is starting to approach LTA territory.

ExWW and I haven't been living together since D-Day. She has changed and I have changed - recovery may be impossible because we have grown too far apart.

2long,

I think of loving detachment and negative punishment as fairly similar. Negative punishment being the removal of a positive stimulus. (As opposed to positive punishment which is the addition of a negative stimulus)

In that sense, loving detachment can be viewed as negative punishment, as the spouse is removing their attachment.

I don't think we are disagreeing, just using different words.


Same for me. But I will say it has cost me something.

Rpynne, when you talk about loving detachment, do you mean that you are living in the same house together, performing all the functions a married couple would do, yet not feeling in love? Would you equate yourself to room-mates? Or are you more similar to siblings - like back in the day widowed and/or unmarried siblings would live together in the family home after their parents had gone (think Anne of Green Gables situation here)?

While such a situation can obviously succeed (in a way), don't you think it leaves the door wide open for another affair on one of your parts?

Am I completely misunderstanding this?

The way best way I can describe is I have the same emotional and actual responses as I would with a old friend who I seldom see. I do not want for them to suffer, but I do not feel obligated to help them when they screw up and I do not live my life through the lense of how does my action affect them. I don't wonder what is going on in their lives, but I'll listen if they want to tell me. If I want to take up a new hobby or career, I don't consider how my choice will affect them. It also affects what you will let them do for you.


Yes, I do. I think if you are dealing with a V/LTA, loving detachment is a way to go. But only if you are willing to forego the benefits of an "attached" relationship for some period of time. Once a person "misses" that kind of connection, they need to move on.

BTW, I don't think this is the ideal way to deal with an A. I just think if, for whatever reason, the WS won't end contact and won't file for divorce, and the BS does not want to file for divorce, it's about all that is left.

This sounds like what my WH did to me while he was cheating and now it has gotten to the point that he doesnt care if I live or die...so it must work the other way around too.

Might I ask why you don't want to file for divorce? I notice in your sig you have no kids.

Well, now, my FWW has ended contact and we are working at recovery.

While her V/LTA was going on I had several reasons. I hadn't really been the best husband and decided I owed her some amount of time to figure her stuff out. I did not "need" a divorce at that time. I had no interest in being in another relationship and did not "miss" the benefits of a relationship. I figured once I did miss those things, I would file. I took my marriage vows seriously. I loved my FWW. I also was pretty stubborn and did not want to be the "catalyst" behind the path she was going down. (Meaning she was going to have to divorce me if she wanted to go down that path).

Also, much like 2long, my FWW's V/LTA wasn't a "in your face" affair. For more than half of it, it was a trying to remain friends with OM. She would go through 2-3 months of NC, then OM would make up some BS reason to call her, then it would start up again.

Are you truly working on recovery if you are remaining detatched? Don't you feel a little like you are the wayward, without having the affair?

Ah, sorry for the confusion. I'm not remaining detached now. (At least not trying to) When I responded to 2long, I meant it had "worked" for me at that time.

I also said it has cost me something. (Posted about that before, but that has since been wiped out.) And what I meant is that it is hard to go from being detached to where I would like to be to have a successful recovery.