P.S. the loved one mentioned above - was my husband. Ok? We have a recovered marriage BECAUSE I followed Harley and not some shrink. And Because my husband found Harley before I lost the ability to recover my love for my husband.

And the NPD friend who approached his personal recovery with humility was not my husband but a recovery friend of his - I watched the process. I've seen it happen. NPD and BPD are not death-knells for marriages.

Harley didn't go through psychoanalysis to recover my husband from his label. He focused on ACTION. And my husband went through every inch of h*ll to face his own demons and reclaim himself from that label. ACTIONS. ACTIONS. ACTIONS.

So I speak from more than just a superficial investment here.

Jenkins can and has every right to hope for marital recovery that I have.

THAT is why I get so offended at the armchair psychiatry that goes on around here.

Actions are the relevant advice around here. Jenkins, you'd do well to focus your attention there. Anything else will give you license and excuses to end the marriage. And it may end up that way anyway. But you'll have earned your way out of the marriage, knowing you did everything you could to change that outcome for the sake of your children.

I'll help you any way I can with a plan. Labels are for those who want excuses.

Whooops I guess I missed this the first time around. Why do you sound so angry?

BC - if you're picking up on anger, it may be a frustration that this misdirect into psychoanalytics causes very real harm to recovery. I've seen so much time wasted on this board delving into this "mystery" of wayward behavior when it's the actions of recovery that get overlooked. And I've seen at least one potential marital recovery pretty much trashed because of it. Thankfully the board crashed and that particular couple has gotten to a marriage builder weekend. It remains to be seen if the actions necessary to recover the marriage will follow up the weekend. But the labeling was pretty much meaningless misdirection when the betrayed spouse really needed to be focused on correcting his own wrong behaviors. And there were plenty of them to correct.

You can do absolutely nothing with a label except get out of the marriage. Labels suck the hope out of recovery and give a betrayed spouse a very real sense of "why try" because they're up against something so huge. When the wrong label got stuck on my husband, three "professionals" sat me down and told me to divorce him - before THEY had done their due-diligence.

So when it's done by an amateur here who lacks even a fraction of the training they had, I will call it out every single time. That's not anger. That's protection of the marriage builder process. And allowing Jenkins the opportunity to stay focused on that process is worth fighting for, not because I'm angry but because silence on this issue allows the amateur psychiatrist free-reign to harm yet another marriage recovery process/personal recovery process - which ever Jenkins' process turns out to be. Hopefully it's both. The label will prevent either from happening.

Kayla
I think you have given me some insight into how you view things. I have also been involved in a marriage with a person with BPD - Borderline personality - very difficult to diagnose and it is a challenging area. I think anyone who has been in one of these relationships does not immediately resign themselves to termination of the relationship. Quite the opposite, I was wanting to recover the relationship. One of the things I noticed was she did not respond in any anticipated manner. Once I began to view her actions through the BPD lens I was able to understand the WHY and WHAT she was doing.

Unfortunately we are still separated. She is in the midst of black and white thinking and I am all bad. She is also in the midst of some risky behaviors and actions that did not make sense under normal circumstances, however through the BPD lens it does make sense.

I understand what you are saying but if you are dealing with a personality disorder the approach and expectations may need to be modified.

Good luck in your journey

First, I never attempted to dx the WW here. Jenkins, himself, mentionedshe had NPd as suggested by her testing and the therapist thye visited. I merely posited that if she does, infact have this dx, the prognosis is very poor.
KA, you are doing exactly what you claim I am doing, projecting your own expierience with your Wh onto this person's situation.
I , too , am sorry all the posts were lost, as they would clearly refute your assertion re the frequency with which I suggest looking into this issue.
As I mentioned, there is no harm in attempting to work the plans fully. I advocated he try. But, as a BH who dealt with the frustration of trying to get through to a BPD/NPD WW, I think it is helpful to give jenkins support in the event the plans cannot work.
Many BSs already feel that they, in some way caused the affair and may also feel that it is a personal failure if working the plans is unsuccesful. But, they cannot work with someone with a PD, IMO.
The behaviors jenkins mentioned, the repeated flirting right in front of him ,pre-A, and the behavior referenced by BC, the phone sex stuff in jenkins presence are many standard deviations away from normal.

Your credentials please? this is not out of the norm but blatant wayward entitlement and many here have gone through it!

My point exactly - your armchair diagnosis leads Jenkins to believe that his wife is worse than any other self-entitled wayward. You cheat him of his right to focus on correcting his own behaviors, require his wife to correct hers or lose access to him, and so forth.

Yes, there is personal experience here. But I'm not projecting - you simply underestimate how frequently - yes, EVERY single person you've posted to on at least one occasion you've brought up the personality disorder possibility. Consistently. Though the evidence is missing, I'm not the only one here who sees you do it and the moderators have even intervened to shut you down on occasion when you've done it. It's extreme.

Every wayward is personality disordered during their wayward period. Most of them could conceivably be diagnosed as at least NPD or even BPD during their wayward episode but once they get their cranial-rectal extraction completed, become their normal, mentally healthy selves. That's why the diagnosis stuff is so danged useless.

Yes, there are a few who are bonafide loo-loo. But the marriage builder process will allow the betrayed spouse to become a better person and recover themselves if not their marriage. Respect the Harleys and their internet real estate enough to stop disrespecting their process to people who have come to them for help and if you must, start your own psychiatric center online for the rare occasion where betrayed spouses can go when they really need to focus on protecting their children from long term, chronic mental illness and personality disorders. Those cases are rare - as I said - ALL WAYWARDS exhibit symptoms of NPD and/or BPD during their wayward episode. The Harley process works.

Credentials? And, yours?
This poster specifically brought up the fact that his therapist had suggested his wife is a N. Again,check your reading comprehension KA. I never attempted to dx his wife. I merely pointed out that if his wife does have NPD, these plans are unlikely to work.
Apparently, by your own admission, you were not dealing with a disordered spouse and are not familiar with what it is like.
Again, you are wrong that I have suggested this to every BS.
You refer to psychology as "psychobabble". Your dismiss the entire field, yet many people have benefitted from it. The concepts of working a practicalplan and understanding the underlying reasons for a behavior(s) are not mutually exclusive.

If I had to just cut through and tell someone who may or may not have a disordered spouse what to do:

1. Follow the MB plan - NOT with the caveat that it probably won't work, NOT with no expectation that your spouse can change, and NOT with the idea that you are going to get out of the M after such-and-such anyway. If you do MB with these "clarifications," you will not be fully embracing it, and you might as well give up before you start. What if my doctor said, "well, I'll do this surgery, but since your appendix is a different color, I know it won't work"

2. After a Harley recommended plan A, if it fails, then implement plan B and find out ahy plan A might not have worked. Maybe it is a PD. But at least your plan A will have really been a plan A

3. If plan D happens, you will know that you did everything you could WITHOUT preconceived ideas as to how it would or wouldn't turn out.

I have never read a Harley article on personality disorders, so I don't know how he feels. That's kinda the point. If you want MB, then do MB. If you want psychology, then read Psychology Today.

I do not think having knowledge about the possibility of a PD prcludes all out effort.

So I have put plan A into motion. I gave her a list of requests that I have. I asked her to get a new phone, one with accessible email by me, no contact with other man, no texting other men and that our lives be transparent. I told her that this is what I will accept from my significant other. So we will see.

"I asked her to get a new phone, one with accessible email by me"

Also get a phone that provides realtime GPS.

NO MORE SOCIAL (SEXUAL?) NETWORKING ON THE INTERNET!

Have you printed out the emotional needs questionnaire and even if she won't fill it out with you, determine which emotional needs you met when you first met her that seemed to make the biggest difference?

Have you started mapping out a plan of action for yourself?

While you are in Plan A and doing your best to be your best, you also need to be preparing for the worst:

Secure your finances. Do not fund the affair in any way shape or form - looks like you're at least cutting off some access - but watch out for secret cell phones.

Get two digital recorders - one to put in your car set on voice activated setting and hidden. The other, keep on your person at all times because a lot of women try to REMOVE their husbands from the home on false abuse charges. The recordings will protect you.

Take care of yourself. Make sure you are getting some exercise, reading good material that builds up your sense of worth and affirms you. There's a lot attacking your sense of worth and you must take daily action to counter that or you will find yourself on the losing end of depression really quick. Eat good healthy food and avoid mood altering foods like sugars and simple carbohydrates. Go for the high quality lean proteins and vegies. Take your vitamins and take a high quality omega 3 oil supplement too.

Journal your time with the kids. And her time/activities with the kids. Because if Plan A fails (which is probable) and Plan B only moves you toward acceptance of Plan D instead of recovery (which is possible), you need documentation so that you get the best chance at being involved in your children's lives for as many days/hours as possible.

Though there is a language barrier, I promise you will not regret counseling with the Harleys. It is worth the patience! You will know what to work on; you will have a task list, you won't be lost worrying about what she's thinking or what she's doing or not doing. You will feel a sense of control over your destiny regardless of the outcome of your marriage.

If you are strong, she is more likely to follow. If you are weak, depressed or uncertain, you are more likely to lose her.

Zelmo - it doesn't preclude action but it can easily distract. That's what the big deal is.

Oh - and I don't claim to have any credentials, but then I don't attempt to label or diagnose on this board, do I? I suggest we amateurs stay away from it.

But I do have some experience in the profession - long past career helping to run a women's program at a psychiatric hospital - I worked on teams coordinating treatment plans for teens, children and adults. I don't do that job any more and haven't for a number of years; I don't hold the credentials now. So I won't flaunt them. And I won't use them here simply because I in no way hold a candle in qualifications to Dr. Harley and his team for recovering marriages. And that's what brings us all together.

I'm just letting you know because you seem to think reading a few web sites and books gives you the qualifications to see a personality disorder under every rock. And the distraction only becomes relevant when it comes to the care of children as a result of a divorce. I would not want to have an NPD or BPD raising my child, even part time. So the diagnosis at THAT point becomes extremely relevant. But not during a discussion of preliminary "what to do" in marital recovery after infidelity.

I disagree that looking into the possibility of a PD is much of a distraction, KA. It is relatively easy to both work the programs and keep an eye out for the criteria, IMO.
I have never attempted to dx anyone. Again, you need to re-read Jenkins post. He stated that their mutual therapist suggested the dx and that the testing done indicated NPD.
Jenkins, if you are, in fact dealing with a NPDW, you may need IC for support.
KA, I agree, your "credentials" are not impressive.
As for the relevancy of a PD in an attempted recovery, I disagree. It is very relevant as knowing what one is dealing with is important in terms of how long to endure.

LOL - you crack me up. I have more "professional" and life time experience in my little finger than you have from all your "learning" and single PD experience.

Wow. Just Wow.

To be perfectly clear, since you don't get it yet.

Most people in crisis can only focus on one thing at a time. It is not "relatively easy" to work Harley's programs and be looking for defects in your spouse. YOU CANNOT DO BOTH AT THE SAME TIME.

They are mutually exclusive tasks.

And a heartbroken betrayed spouse getting distracted into defect diagnosing is not going to successfully pull off marital recovery, so in fact, buddy, you are a marital saboteur by insisting you're right. STOP IT!

My,my, KA. Lots of anger and a belief you have a monopoly on the truth. I'm sure you are impressed by your little finger, "buddy". I always get a kick out of it when someone claims they have impressive credentials, yet claims they do not want to disclose them out of modesty("don't want to flaunt them""((oh, Pleeeeeze)). Seems a little disingenuous.
I disagree that it would be difficult to both consider the possibility of a PD, while working the programs. Jenkins clearly has this capability, IMO(of course, many of us can walk and chew gum at the same time, too.)
I realize you are adverse to the idea of some of these BSs taking a look at the possibility of a PD. But, as BC boy points out to you, knowing what one is dealing with is helpful.
We'll have to agree to disagree.

Zelmo, I really recommend that you step back and get some clarity on your positions and why you have them.

KaylaAndy DOES happen to have very impressive credentials, which you would know if you weren't just making kneejerk reactions to people questioning you and bothered to look up her history.

What benefit do you see in being an instigator? You certainly aren't helping the OP, you're TJing his thread and also giving him emotion-based advice. You aren't affecting KA because she quite simply has 'better credentials' than you. But you are making the rest of us hesitant to give your posts any credibility. JMHO

I've done that, cat. No doubt my own expierience has influenced my view on the importance of giving support to someone dealing with a PD spouse. It is a horrific expierience, IMO, and from talking to many people that have gone through it, I have formed the belief that is is a good thing to validate their expieriences.
"Impressive" credentials is subjective, and , to tell you the truth, in my line of work, I don't put much stock in them, by themselves. Just seen to many attorneys with the big time pedigrees get their butts kicked by some guy from a night school.
And,really her allegation that she has some knowledge of my "life expierience" so as to be able to comapre it to her own could not be true. She knows very little about my expierience and background. That assertion , alone, makes me question her alleged credentials and expertise.
I'm not sure if you can speak for others re their willingness to lend credibility to my posts. I know that I have , actually, formed some close relationships with people from this and other sites due to supporting each other through this tough time.
I can honestly say that I beleive what I post re this PD deal and,I have no problem if a % of people do not lend a lot of credence to my posts.
Let's stop taking over this thread.

ENOUGH!!!!! STOP!!!!!!!!

Let's stop with the armchair diagnosis and get on with helping this poster with MB concepts!!