I'm not sure if you'll see this before you head out for the weekend, but .......

I hope all goes well for the two of you.
Listen and absorb ottert, this weekend you are a sponge!
I hope Mrs. Ottert is too.

I'll be thinking of you.
Oh, and remember to have fun, the mall is amazing!

Thank you Vittoria. It's great to hear from you and nice you thought to post to me. I've missed the friends I have here.

As much as it drove me crazy not to be able to come here and read and post, it was good for me. I needed to get away from here but couldn't tear myself away. When the server went down I had to stop cold turkey. No choice.

We are going tomorrow, and it's hard to believe we made it (well, we aren't there yet). I have to admit it is going to be difficult to go in the right frame of mind. My hopes of this weekend saving our marriage are dim. MrsO moved out with my oldest two daughters (17 and 13) and has been at her parents for the past ten days. The youngest two, S11 and D8, have been staying with me at our house.

She said I am not "safe" for her and the kids to be around. Of course, I must be safe enough for the youngest two. She hasn't objected to them staying with me.

She left one day while I was gone, leaving our son home alone after telling him she was leaving to stay at her parents. He refused to go with her and said he wanted to stay with me. I went to her parents immediately(over their objections) and got D8. The oldest two are stuck to their mother like glue. I just told them I loved them and didn't argue.

MrsO's parents are insane, BTW. They are opposed to almost all MB principles, some of the most foundational ones. If you remember, this is where MrsO has re-routed her personal mail. Her mother told me the other day that MrsO has the right to privacy and should be able to email anyone she wants, even old boyfriends, and it's none of my business what they say to each other. She said I invaded MrsO's privacy when I "snooped" and read the emails with her ex-fiance. That's what has caused our marriage to crumble, she said. She said I have no right to read MrsO's mail or emails unless she gives me permission each time.

Her father told me for about the 20th time I have to just "Let it go." I asked him if he had even once told MrsO that she had done anything wrong in our marriage or in emailing her ex-fiance behind my back. He said no. I asked him if he was going to. He said "No, I'm not. I'm going to support my daughter."

I am not making this up. These are parts of real conversations I had with them the night MrsO moved out.

This is where MrsO has been going for comfort, refuge and counsel for the past ten days, to people who are adamantly opposed to everything we are going to hear this weekend. I have no idea how either of us is going to get anything out of this weekend in this kind of atmospherem, especially with the garbage she has almost certainly been listening to from her parents.

She isn't even riding with me to the airport in the morning. We're flying across the country to save our marriage and she refuses to ride to the airport with me... words fail me to describe my frustration and disbelief.

I asked her if she couldn't even stay at our house right up to the night we leave, and since I'm not safe to be with, where was she going to stay in Minnesota.

She said "What do you mean? I'm staying with you in our room."

I asked her was she going to sleep in a separate bed. She said "No, I'm sleeping with you. Don't you want me to?" She answered like I had asked her a stupid question.

I tried to explain how confusing and counter-productive this was and she refused to talk any more, got in her car and shut the door as I was talking.

It's some of the most bizarre and manipulative thinking and behavior I've ever witnessed, even for her. She moves out, will barely talk to me for 10 days, shutting me almost completely out and we're supposed to go to a marriage-saving weekend and act like a husband and wife, even sleeping in the same bed together? She stays gone right up to the morning we leave and we're supposed to flip a switch tomorrow and try to save our marriage?

One thing I learned while she's been gone is that I can make it without her if I have to. Yes, it would hurt beyond anything I can imagine. But I can and will move on and build a new life.

She is using this "separation" as a weapon to manipulate me into doing what she wants. She holds it over me like a threat. It's more of her controlling and manipulation. And she accuses me of being controlling.

I am hoping and praying for a work of God this weekend in both of us. I can't live like this any longer.

My prayers are with you and MrsO, ottert.

((((((ottert))))))

ottert, I have never participated in your thread but read a lot -I just wanted to wish you both good luck this weekend - will be thinking of you both

Oh ottert, I'm so sorry, I really am.
It doesn't sound like Mrs. O is in a good environment for rebuilding any sort of M.
She is still willing to go to the seminar, this is good.

I'm praying too, along with the rest!

Otter, do you have someone you can call to calm down, reason through, get back to being yourself before you speak with Mrs. O? You are in a tough situation today. I heard a quote, "Our thinking became distorted trying to force solutions." How can you get back to being the MB-style H who can rebuild a better marriage than what you two had going into this?

From out here, explaining to her how confusing and counter-productive her decisions is DJing and LBing, the opposite of marriage-building, the negotiating without LBs to find solutions that work for both of you, and tabling the conversation when one of you moves from open brainstorming to judging the other. Staying in her parents' home when you are LBing, from here, sounds like a sound decision to protect her LB$ account for you. I pray that you bother hear the MB message in a way you can truly understand and implement it this weekend.

Sounds like her family is doing the same thing that you're doing, today. Trying to push their views on you. Can you see in their behavior how irritating and frustrating this is?

Explaining how she's doing the wrong thing to her may have "worked" for you temporarily in the past, but you're at a critical moment here where it would benefit you and your marriage to make amends promptly for your LBs and slips.

Ottert:

Good Luck.

You might be surprised what happens.

Have faith.

She may only be thinking that this is her only chance to see the "Mall of America".

No matter. Go forth without expectations. She can climb on board, or not.

Remember that YOU are there to learn as well.

Even Mel, after being steeped in MB for a couple of years, learned about her own behaviors, and the MB weekend really helped her marraige.

Have Faith.

LG

Good luck Ottert. I sympathize with you on the crazy-making behavior; I've had some similar experiences lately. But we're not going to a MB weekend so I'm very envious of you. I agree with LG that she might be thinking of this as just a fancy shopping trip or even her swan song to the marriage but the weekned could end up really bowling her over. And you will have great support from the Harleys when you return.

In prayers for your weekend...please remember that God can work through anything...even when you've convinced yourself otherwise.

Of course she's going to not make sense...and accuse you of what she's doing...that's understandable and reasonable given her wayward mindset. And as you saw, her unloving support system in her parents. Doesn't excuse...just explains.

Ground yourself in possibility, Otter...because that's what the weekend is...get what you need out of it...be focused, aware and present. Thrive, anyway. You know you can.

LA

O,

Praying for you believing God can make a way...


In the words of The Oakridge Boys:

Are you standing in the rubble
Of your broken life and wonder
Can the pieces be put back together again?

You can't fix it,
But He can.
There is healing in the Savior's hands.
He can take what's broken
And make it whole again.
You can't fix it,
But He can...

You can't fix it,

But He can.

Hear it here.

Ottert, I live right by the MOA, if you have the urge to grab a beer while here, let me know.
Man, you have dealt with some serious crazymaking. You need to research peronality disorders if you have not already done so.

Hey, thanks Zelmo. We went to the MOA last night, ate at Bubba Gumps, strolled around. Actually had a nice night. We're leaving this morning.

That would have been cool to have a beer with you, one of my MB friends. I saw your post yesterday, but I felt MrsO and I needed to spend the evening together. Maybe we'll get another chance. Who knows, we may have to come back yearly to MB weekend to keep it together. (Hope not, though.)

Thanks buddy for all your kindness and support.

otter, how did the weekend go!?? Did you meet Dr. Harley?

Ottert ..... I can't believe you couldn't give us a hint as to how it went over there in Minnesota, we're dyin' to know!

Aren't you leaving a bit early, I thought the seminar went later than the am???

It started out with me wondering what I was doing there. It went downhill from there on Friday night with MrsO crying and withdrawing further after talking with Steve for about 30 minutes. As the seminar went on through the day Saturday, MrsO seemed to soften and I think some lights went on for her. Then it ended Saturday night with MrsO and I falling asleep in each others' arms.

We walked through the airport holding hands this morning and had pleasant conversations like a husband and wife. We only had one minor verbal spat that ended quickly.

How's that? I could tell a lot more to fill in the gaps, but it would take too long and MrsO and I agreed to limit our conversations on the forum for now. We want to focus on the follow-up courses and get our counsel directly from Dr. Harley on the private forum, from Steve, or from Kim, our follow-up coach. I'll probably pop in occasionally, but not nearly as much.

Yes, we met and talked several times with Dr. Harley, as well as Joyce and Steve. MrsO and I were the last couple in the room with Dr. Harley and Joyce on Saturday evening after the seminar ended. They stayed around until all our questions were answered. They were all so gracious and patient with us, taking time to answer questions and concerns.

MrsO heard things that challenged her positions and assumptions. And, yes, so did I. I left believing that if we follow the program and complete the courses and do the things necessary to fall back in love with each other, I will get the closure on this situation that I have wanted for so long. We still have a long road head of us. It will take a lot of believing and trusting in the process, but I am more hopeful than I've been in a long, long time.

Update above as requested, Vit!

No, we didn't leave early. It ended about 4:30 on Sat. afternoon, but we stuck around and talked with Steve and the Harleys until about 6 or 6:30.

a sigh of relief.... Dr Harley can handle you rascals!

Good work. I hope you two can work things out. My son with Down's and autism and one of my daghters were out to the mall yesterday, Ottert. Every time my son visits from group home, we have to ride the flume and the rollercoaster there.
Harley has a good rep here in Minnesota. Seems like a good man.

I gots me a lump in my throat, ottert.

You sound calm and indeed hopeful. Your post holds such great news. I am so happy to read this.

I appreciate and certainly respect your not popping in so much, but consider giving us a little peek if you can now and then. I'm rooting so hard for you two. (Can you hear me?)

Take care, ottert, and God bless.

(((((ottert & MrsO)))))