A quick update -

After considering the great advise from you, I decided to make an appointment with the Harleys for MC. Last night, I told my wife that I was going to make the appointment and that she would be welcome to join in. She expressed her concern about doing this in English over the phone. She didn't give me an answer about the counseling and sounded very tentative.

This morning I contacted MB and setup the appointment. She accepted to join in the call and give it a try. She even sounded positive and willing to "work on being together". That's great news for me and gives me a little fuel to continue working on my M.

Ironically, I think that her good reception this morning was in response to a conflict we had earlier today. Last night when she went to bed I did my usual round of snooping. I found some Fakebook activity that I didn't like including her looking at pictures of the OMW.

We've been constantly having conflicts with her usage of Fakebook. I've been very clear that I don't approve her putting messages that may bring confusion to our relationship or viewing pictures/messages of the OM and related people. I just got tired of having this same argument over and over so I proceeded to deactivate her Fakebook account and to remove the mobile Fakebook application from her BlackBerry.

This morning I informed her in a very calm but firm voice that I had deactivated her Fakebook account and also removed it from her phone. I told her that her usage of Fakebook is hurting me and that I had no choice but deactivate the account. I also stated that if she decides to reactivate the account and I detect usage that would cause me pain then I'd proceed to remove all content from the account and permanently cancel it. I also sent an email expressing the same thing. She was petrified and could only say "I know".

This is the second time that I've had to remove her access to a web site. Previously, she was using the online billing of our corporate credit cards to keep tabs on the OM. The first time I detected she was doing this, I gave her a warning. The second time I followed up with with changing the passwords of the account. She was very angry about it but I told her that couldn't permit her to abuse me in that way. The reason I have to resort to these tactics is not revenge but primarily because I have to protect myself from the hurt that she's intentionally bringing to me.

I hope she sees the light soon. Let's see.

--ElCamino72

I can see what you mean, but from my line of work I *know* that a polygraph can be beat. So the result of a polygraph won't bring me full clarity because I would still have some doubt about the results. So I don't feel inclined to go that route.

AFAIK, my WW has read some of the main MB site contents but I believe she hasn't entered into the forums section. She's also read SAA. If I detect her reading this forum then I may stop posting or change tactics (and I'm keeping my ears very close to the ground). So far this forum is a great scape to the tribulations of the A so I'm going to continue using it.

Ironically enough, my WW even sent an email to OMW with the link to MB right after I showed her the site. The OMW asked her to never write to her again. Can you believe that? I mean, how can a WS give marital advise to a OPS? That's crazy... This is proof that WS have actually been abducted by aliens.

Thanks for your comments

--ElCamino72

They are completly BONKERS...Usually REALITY slaps them around enough as their world and reputation come crashing down to snap them out of it over time. But yes, that is totally obsurd!!! You can meet w/ OMW and you can talk about MB, but not your WW!!!

Hey MBers,

Things have been going normal. I'm taking things day to day and avoiding to deviate from getting to that point where R could start to be possible. It's just a matter of every day trying to put the required effort to get there regardless of the challenges I've been confronting. At the same time, I'm trying to keep a nice pace and stay calm.

A really positive note is that last week my WW and I started coaching with Steve Harley. There was no barrier at all with language. We were able to communicate perfectly with Steve. He was able to convince my WW to buy into the program. She's agreed to continue coaching with Steve and follow his instructions. I'm hoping that his coaching will lead us into the road to R.

Steve lay out a plan that feels to be just right for our situation. Although reading SAA and learning from the MB web site on our own has been helpful, coaching with Steve feels way more focused on solving the situation at hand. Steve's approach is different to the MC we've previously attended. He's definitely not wasting time to delve into the heart of the problem. Talking to him gives you a sense that you're in very professional and experienced hands.

His approach is very coach like in the sense that he's very well prepared to explain the Xs and Os of his game plan. So at this point I really want to follow his instructions - it doesn't matter if he's going to have me sit on the bench, pass the ball or get a buzzer beater. I feel confident that with Steve's coaching ability and a great effort from both me and my WW we have can have fair chance to R our M.

Thanks for your help

-- ElCamino72

Hello,

Yesterday I forwarded last month's MB news letter to my WW - you know, the big fat one about about exposure. In the forwarded message I just wrote that our MB coach asked me to send her this info and that we'd talk about it.

She started to read the message by my side in her BlackBerry. Oh boy, oh boy, that opened the proverbial can of worms and out it came a bunch of really nasty looking maggots. In an instant, my WW was visibly upset and looked pretty angry. This is something I anticipated - it's expected that her WS mentality will make a run to the hills in the face of such a blast of reality.

I am not sure if she finished reading the whole newsletter but it didn't take too long before she stormed out of the room. In her way out of the room she picked an empty box and then I heard a noise that sounded like the box being thrown. I remained calm and wasn't really affected by her childish tantrum.

At this point I am not letting my WW manipulate me with what she likes to call "getting emotional" which is a cheap euphemism for AO. I am getting better at removing my WW's power to to bait me into arguments and unnecessary distress. For the time being, I'm just deflecting her AO by continuing to practice emotional detachment. This gives me an opportunity to stay sane while I figure out effective solutions to the actual problems at hand.

While I plan the course of action, I just try to behave around her like a friendly neighbor. My coping technique involves me trying to act like Smiling Bob, the pitchman character for the Extenze "male enhancement suplemment". I do that while humming in my head the Extenze commercial jingle LoL.

My WW has conveniently withdrawn from me since reading the newsletter. Last night she couldn't stop snapping her fingers and was nervously moving her legs non-stop. She was trying very hard to catch my attention by looking anxious. I feel sorry for this pain she's going through but the truth is that this is something she caused to our family with her irresponsible behavior.

This morning, I received a reply where my WW says that just thinking about exposure gives her too much stress. She claims to understand the intention of why the Harleys would recommend exposure but she disagrees with it. My WW believes that although an argument for exposure can be made, since it may help to avoid recurrence of an A, her opinion is that the negative of exposure would outweigh the positive. I'm just wondering if by negative she means losing her extended residence in fantasy land.

My WW stated in her email that if she has to tell her parents about what happened then she'd rather end our relationship. Her drama goes into saying that she knows that she deserves the kind of punishment that exposure may bring but doing so will cause her to end our M. Her email also explains how much it'd would hurt her to end our M on this note.

Her diatribe goes into saying that humiliating their parents by telling them what happened was not part of the deal. She puts end to her written tragedy by saying that she's willing to make our M work but not at the price of causing grief to her parents for something she did. She then closes with the obligatory "I'm sorry" which for many reasons doesn't ring anything close to remorse.

This is one of those cases where the WS is held by her relatives and friends as an exemplary person. Needless to say, she's terrified of losing that status of Good Girl/Mother/Wife (tm).

In the beginning I stayed away from exposure because my foggish BS thinking told me that I didn't want to do it for the wrong reasons (i.e. revenge). Now I know that expose is more than that all female group from the 80s.

I've only revealed the A to the OMW and a couple of my very close friends. The lack of exposure now feels kind of dumb because the time has passed and it's taken some of the sting away. I am still not completely sure how exposure is to be handled at this point. However, everyday it's making more sense to reveal this horrible betrayal to anybody that may have influence in ending my WW gig.

I'm in the process of figuring out a plan that can be executed promptly and safely. I can anticipate that her family is going to feel offended by exposure and that my WW may try a defamation campaign. Who knows, she may even try to take my DDs away with her. I just need to prepare my reaction to any crazy WS action that may result from exposure.

I'd greatly appreciate your comments or suggestions about exposure in my situation.

Thanks

-- ElCamino72

Well, I hope that you don't mind a little venting around here. So please bear with me.

Quick status:

So far, we've done about a dozen counseling sessions with Steve Harley. We originally started working in understanding the why/what of the A and outlining a plan for EP. Unfortunately, my WW failed at completing these steps to my satisfaction.

This resulted in a lot of frustration and the most miserable holidays I've ever had. It got to the point where I was becoming very discouraged so Steve had us switch gears into filling our empty Love Banks.

During the last couple of weeks I've been stepping up my plan A. I've been trying to do even better at meeting her top ENs so that I can deposit as many LUs as possible. But I have to admit that at this point there's a whole lot of "fake-it-to-make-it" in that which is really draining.

My WW has eased her bitterness and anger in the last couple of weeks. But for whatever reason, she doesn't seem willing to let go of her ego if favor of our family. I believe she's more concerned about the embarrassment of her A being brought to light and her perception that I am now trying to control her as a punishment. There's a strong discomfort in her when it comes to owning the A and in admitting that her self-image of perfection has been an illusion.

The thing is that she has been able to grasp the logic behind the MB ideas since she articulates many of the Dr. Harley's concepts really well. But her actions do not reflect that she's prepared to do the heavy lifting involved in R. Her actions seem to be more geared to go back to our previous M. I certainly have no interest in going down that path.

There's little doubt that she's still in wayward mode even if the OM might be out of the picture. What's killing me is the lack of effort. Sometimes it feels like she's doing just barely enough to get me off her back. Trickle truth and lack of remorse are major issues right now. Regardless, I am focused on the goal so I must keep within the plan.

As a positive note, we are going to be attending the MB Weekend at the end of the month. So I'm hoping that it will recharge my batteries to continue executing. Who knows, maybe she'll have that elusive come to jesus moment there :-D

Allright, enough venting. Now back to Plan A.

-- ElCamino72

Trickle truth really wore me down.

H and I are attending the weeked at the end of the month. We will be the really old couple there.

AM

Hi ElCamino72,

I'm so glad that you are coaching with Steve. Keep up the good work and I hope you get some fun time at the weekend. I wish I were going (with WS of course!)

TM

Hi AM. We'll be the couple speaking spanglish :-)


I'm really looking forward to it. Not only for the MB weekend but also for the great opportunity to deposit LUs.


I know, the venting job doesn't pay well and the benefits suck. You just do it when strictly needed. I actually felt better by letting it out.

Today I had a good short conversation with WW. She actually asked me how well she was meeting my EN. I am really glad she made the approach. Credit where it's due - so I'll take back a little of what I said in the venting.

--ElCamino72

I'm back from the MB Weekend. It was coooold in MN! But the seminar made it well worth the trip.

It was great to get insight from Dr. Harley himself. The MB team are really nice people. I got to put a voice to the face of Steve. Joyce has a really affable personality.

I also took the opportunity to deposit a good amount of LUs in my FWW's LB$. We went on a few dates and accumulated some quality UA time together. I'm trying to adjust to become more affective which is her top EN so I got to practice a little bit during the weekend.

My FWW's reaction was overall good. I think she's warming up to the MB program. Although she's struggling with the POJA concept. She thinks that I might use it to control her by stalling certain decisions. The thing is that she's developed a very independent lifestyle in the last few years. So there are big adjustments to make in that area.

One example of her reluctance to follow the POJA happened just the day before we flew to MN. It had to do with her hairstyle. A few days before the trip, she told me (not asked) that she was going to get blond highlights. I told her that I'd prefer she doesn't change her hair color. She's well aware that her changing hairstyle and hair color are HUGE triggers for me. And she knows how much I prefer her natural hair color.

In part, the hairstyle issue goes back to when she was immersed in the A, she changed her hair color to blond and would blow dry her hair straight during that time. At D-Day, I found she'd sent tons of pictures and messages to OM asking about her hairstyle changes. I remember when I didn't know that she was having an A, that I'd literally beg her to go back to her natural hair and her response used to be "it's my hair - I do whatever I want to do with it".

I've always loved my FWW's natural hair. She's got the most beautiful natural curly hair - really nice ringlets. Since we've dated, her curly hair, has been her physical characteristic that attracts me the most. She knows it very well. So it really hurt me when she'd purposely change it.

Going back to the recent POJA incident, I told her that I didn't have an enthusiastic agreement with her changing hairstyle for the trip. Her counter-argument was that she didn't enthusiastically agree with me controlling her hairstyle.

We tried to negotiate but we couldn't find an agreeable solution. So I told her that we'd come back to it later. She mentioned that she wanted to get her hair done before the trip. I said that according to the POJA, we shouldn't do anything until we have an enthusiastic agreement. She stated that it was unfair because she'd get stuck with doing nothing. Then she jokingly said that she'd still do it because "after a couple of days you'll get over it". I said that it'd really hurt me if she'd proceed knowing that I didn't agree.

The night before the trip she said that she was unhappy about the decision of doing nothing. After further negotiation, I agreed to her getting her hair straight and re-touching the color on the base of the hair with the same she currently has. But I explicitly said that I couldn't agree to the blond highlights she wanted. She said OK and I thought we had an agreement.

Next day when I come back from work I noticed she's got the highlights. I ask her and she denies it - she tries to tell me that it's the same highlights she's always had. It was obvious that she'd just changed the color but she was still denying it. I couldn't believe that she'd still try to lie to my face so badly after all the issues we've had about her dishonesty. She not only violated the POJA but also was blatantly lying. It was really frustrating. To the point where I was considering not going to the MB Weekend. I know, I don't want to make a big deal out of hairstyle but her behavior really hurt me.

I couldn't even look at her during our trip to MN. I was really mad so I avoided talking to her. Our first night in MN we went to a really nice restaurant. She said, I gotta confess that I changed my hair color. But then she went into self-justification mode and blame shifting about me trying to control her. I just told her that her decision to break our agreement and to lie hurt me very much. At that point she let a few tears go, said "I'm sorry" and headed to the restroom.

She didn't really apologize. It felt more like she was angry at me. We didn't discuss it any further and I just went back to the fake-it-to-make-it mode of plan A. It's still a concern that she gets "scott free" out of this violation and I resent her lack of remorse. At what point do I start enforcing a strict boundary on such violations?

Well, the good thing is that Dr. Harley discussed POJA in great details and gave excellent examples - including why it's better to do nothing when in disagreement. So from now on, there aren't going to be any excuses whatsoever. I'm really hoping she buys into it because I can't withstand too many more blatant violations of POJA. My LB$ has been running really low - especially since she's not meeting very well my top ENs which is H&O. And she still shows a lot of IB and dishonesty.

I realize that to get good at POJA we'll both have to do a lot of changes in our decision making process. I expect the MB follow-up program will help us in that specific area.
I'm convinced that the MB weekend and follow up program is our best chance. So I am hopeful that her attitude is going to improve overtime. I am going to try to stay calm, positive and continue sticking to the plan. I can't wait to see some baby steps because I need something to hold on. We'll see.


--ElCamino72

I always asked myself how I�d know if I was in R. When should I begin to say that I am in R?

Seems to me like the answer is when you start to make measurable and consistent progress. Right now, my FWW and I are taking more steps forward than backwards. How can I measure it? LBs have been drastically reduced and we�re doing a lot better at meeting our EN.

Just recently, FWW�s balance in my LB$ has been slowly but surely increasing. Small amounts of LUs are being deposited and not much withdrawn � that sense of progress is something I haven�t felt in a very long time so I'll enjoy it even if it doesn't last.

I think that we still have a way to go before we can say that our M is riding on R road. But MB has given us a map and I can see us getting there.

Can anybody share when was it you realized that R had begun?

--ElCamino72

No disrespect, Mark, but those are not "little victories".

Those are monumental landmarks.

Little victories are the wife actually sitting down to dinner and homework with me and the kids for a change.

Little victories is not seeing the OM's number on her regular or disposable phone for another day.

Little victories are the WW reluctantly accepting a shoulder hug.

Those are the scraps I'm getting right now.

I understand feeling triggery about the hairstyle, but are things like hair colors and hair styles an issues that Harley expects to use POJA with?

EC,

Your battles.

Your victories.

BR,

My daughter decided she wanted her hair to be black. She talked it over with her boyfriend and he told her that he didn't like black hair and really liked her hair color, a dishwater blond, the way it was.

She dyed it black.

MAJOR love buster!

So she realized just how hurt he was by it and called a friend for advice on what to do. The friend told her that she was going to have to live with it for at least 4 - 6 weeks before trying to change it.

She got some new color and tried to get it back to the way it was while he was at work.

He came home and found her a mass of tears.

With hair that was orange, and blue with traces of green.

He wasn't real fond of the new look either.

Choices have consequences.

ALL choices have consequences.

The things we do can affect our spouse either positively or negatively. Seldom are they love bank neutral.

POJA:

Never do anything without the enthusiastic agreement of your spouse.

I don't have a mustache any more because my wife asked me to shave it off. Actually, she said she preferred me without one. Had it when we met. Had it for years. Shaved it off when she asked me to get rid of it.

POJA: "How would you feel about me gaining 50 pounds or so?"
POJA: "How would you feel about my trading in the minivan for a souped up hot rod?"
POJA: "How would you feel if I changed my hair color to purple?"

EVERY choice has consequences. The consequences for the choices we make when we are married affect our spouse as well as ourselves.

Not POJA: "I ate too much and put on 50 pounds because ___." (I was bored while you were at work and didn't think you'd notice)
Not POJA: "I'm sick of being the laughing stock of the softball team and decided I really wanted a hot rod, so I got it."
Not POJA: "I didn't think you'd mind if I dyed my hair a different color. It's MY hair."

IB isn't doing things without our spouse, it's doing things as if our spouse doesn't exist or that what we do doesn't matter to him or her.

Not me happy, you not happy.
Not you happy and me not happy.
You happy; me happy. Both Love Banks get filled up.

Dr Harley says that whenever there is conflict how we resolve it is even more important than finding a resolution.

At least hair grows out and returns to its original color (or some version of the original color depending on how old we are.)

Hi BR,

I know that the hairstyle thing may sound silly.

I've discussed this issue with Steve Harley. The short answer is yes - the POJA applies. There's actually a section for hairstyle, makeup, clothing in the EN Questionnaire under the section of Physical Attractiveness.

POJA prevents one spouse from doing something the other doesn't agree enthusiastically. In my case, I do prefer my FWW to wear certain hairstyle. Don't get me wrong, I am willing to negotiate something that both of us feel enthusiastic about. I don't mean to make a big fuss about hairstyle. The thing that has hurt is her IB where she'd purposely go for a hairstyle that she knows I dislike.

--ElCamino72

Mark,

Thanks for your always insightful clarification with the POJA.

I've read your LV post and it is truly inspiring.

I appreciate it.

--ElCamino72

I did not know this. There have been threads about PA but I think they were mostly about weight and don't recall topics about hair color, nails, etc. I'm a curly head myself and often wonder if non-curlies really understand what a headache the curls can be. The other curlies out there know what I mean.

I hear ya Mark.

I understand what you mean. I've seen how much work it takes to keep curls in good shape. I've seen the headaches of finding curl-friendly hair products and salons that know how to work with curly hair. My FWW used to go to a salon in NYC that specialized in curly hair. I loved how the way they'd fix her hair there.

My FWW and two DDs are curlies. I am fascinated by their hair. People ask them all the time if their ringlets are natural.

--ElCamino72