Following along here, L4

how was your weekend?

I've been working on this response for a couple of days because this topic -- PA and my physical care -- is a very big deal in our relationship. It's also important to me. I want to be a healthy example for my children, especially for my daughter.

FWIW, I'm physically healthy based on my most recent check-up where several tests were run. I have a normal body mass index, low cholesterol, low blood pressure, and am good where I need to be.

I'm afraid that I'm going to sound full of excuses. I hope y'all here will read this and offer me help in the context of MB, my real life, and real issues that I'm having. I value your advice and will receive it with an open mind.

I need at least 90-minutes if not more more, ST, depending on the kind of exercise I do.

With warm-up, the work-out itself is 45 - 60 minutes, no matter if it's the treadmill, an outside walk, an exercise tape, or a swim. I have to stretch 10 - 15 minutes afterward per my physical therapist due to a chronic problem in my left heel/leg. At least 5 minutes to shower, then 30 - 40 minutes getting dressed, hair, and make-up -- give or take depending on if I have to go to work or if I'm hanging around the home.

I understand what you're saying, LG, and thank you for your well-thought feedback, tips, and advice. I don't, however, agree with the part about not showing my H the passion that I showed for OM.

With the exception of meeting H's EN for PA, I believe I am meeting every other EN of his -- at least I think so since I don't officially know what his ENs are. I'm doing more then I was shortly before the A and I'm doing a bajillion times more then during the affair. H recognizes my efforts and has told me so on various occasions, including as recently as last Wednesday.

As for literal passion, I initiate cuddling, affection, and SF often and when we're engaged, I'm not reserved. (Unless H wants me to be.)

True. But my life/schedule today is very different then when I was involved in the A.

Then I worked from 7am � 4pm. I worked from home. My job was extremely slow and I had tons of flexibility with plenty of time to work-out, read books, do the grocery shopping, do laundry, be with the kids, and yes, conduct an affair.

Today, I'm out of the house weekdays from 8:15am � 6pm � having to get the kids ready for school and me ready for work before then. (I handle the kids in the morning and my H handles them in the afternoon before I get home.) I get home and it's a whirlwind making dinner, homework, piano practice, soccer, swimming... Doing things with kids or other evening activities. Once kids are in bed, I either spend time with H, do the household chores (when I worked from home I was able to do them throughout the day), or start my second job -- which I'm contracted to give up to 25-hours a week through late December. I'm in bed anytime between 11:30pm and 2am. This morning it was 4am as I was trying to get a website ready for launch.

Of course I can work-out during those "down" hours on the weekends and at 5am, but I also have to grocery shop, do laundry, clean the kitchen and the house, make time for UA, make time for family, schedule family appointments, handle other commitments (church, school projects/events), and sleep. When I was conducting the A, I was working one job from home and could work-out before work or on my lunch hour. I also didn't care about making time for UA with H. Now I'm working 2 jobs 50 - 65 hours a week with 50 hours (including commuting) outside of the home. I'm doing this while trying to run a household and attend to my H and our essential UA time.

Dang it!

I want for it to be so much more, yes.

Correct from start to finish on this one, LG. And I tried it again the very next Saturday, telling H how an IB of his really hurt me. And it turned ugly. It started in bed much like Oct 3. It ended with H turned away from me, not responding to me, no resolution, and me in quiet tears walking out.

The back-story on that... I started working out in January '08. The A started in February. I went hog wild on the work-outs because of FOM's interest. NC in June. I continued working out. Got down to size 4/6. I had oral surgery in mid-July and was limited to a liquid diet for 3 weeks and couldn't work-out. Daughter was in a serious accident in August. I was very worried about her and in turmoil about my lies, and I lost my appetite. I got out of the work-out routine but also pretty much stopped eating -- that's how I got down to a size 2 and 116 lbs. Most who knew me were worried about my health including family, friends, and co-workers. H said I looked hot.

Not great. I go in fits and spurts.

You reward her which is great. Do you also support her during her efforts?

I ask because last spring I told H I was worried about my weight gain and I wanted his help. I talked about this before on here a number of months ago, but will repeat since it's topical again.

H loves rich, flavorful food. He wants the creams, gravies, and sauces. H has also been slender all of his life. He can make a chocolate bar last a whole week. Seriously. He'll take a bite or two, wrap it up and set it down, then pick it back up again tomorrow and do the same.

I, on the other hand, love food too, but can't control my intake as H can. Throughout my life, I have often used food for comfort when I'm stressed and/or sad. Because I was an athlete throughout all of school and was usually active, it wasn't much of a problem. It's been since I had kids that it's more of a problem.

So I told H I wanted to change how we eat and especially what foods we keep in the house. (We both worked from home so whatever was in the cupboards was what was available to me all hours of the day.) H said that it's his house too, and he doesn't think he should have to change how he eats since he doesn't have a problem with food. I asked if he could at least keep his snacks and treats in his office so that they wouldn't be tempting to me. He said food should be kept in the kitchen so that's where he'll keep it.

If it's been a hard day and I walk into the kitchen and there's an open bag of BBQ chips just sitting there, more often than not I will grab a handful or seven before I put them away. I know some can�t understand this �lack of willpower� -- including my H.

I know ultimately it's up to me and not H. I have to do this.

I�ve begun taking healthy snacks to keep at work and I've been making my lunch 3 if not 4 days a week, so I am trying in the food category.

Thank you for the book suggestion. What I like about the exercising is that it helps me in so many aspects of my life � not just PA. I sleep and rest and feel so much better.

I am not trying to be stubborn. Maybe I am, but I believe I am not because I'm tentatively scheduled to have surgery in late December -- a surgery I've been waiting to have for over 20 years. The time is right and I need to be around 140 lbs. to have the surgery. If saving my M isn't enough incentive to lose the weight, getting to have this surgery that I've wanted for years should be. But I haven't gotten it done. I'm struggling with roadblocks in my every day life and in my head.

Meeting PA is not like affection or conversation, like admiration or RC, or family commitment or SF... These ENs can be met in the random moment or by focusing on them once a day or once a week. Food is a part of every single person's life throughout every day from morning until evening. And in my case it's not just how food fits into my life but how it fits in the lives of 3 others as well. It's at the forefront of my mind constantly.

It's an ongoing cycle... I have low self-esteem so I eat and curl-up to comfort myself. I do these things and then I don't lose weight. I don't lose weight and my H finds me unattractive so my esteem remains low. So I eat and curl-up...

I'm trying to break out of it because it's nothing new. We were addressing this issue in my IC when I was going -- of why and how my self-esteem is so wrapped up in my appearance.

This is a great idea. Based on the past I don't think I can get support from H, but I don't know this -- that's a DJ. So to be fair, I will ask him again.

My goal is to have a recovered M and to be healthy inside and out.

I'm embarrassed that I can't get the handle on this that I know I must. I'm ashamed of how this weakness plays into H's feelings for me. While I may not think I'm too heavy, H does and I need to change things in order to be the W my H wants me to be. I am a woman and as Lil pointed out, I want H to want me. I want that so badly.

Thank you very much, LG.

Nice to read, Zelmo. Thank you for your perspective.

L4,

Look into this: Lose It For Life.

Mark

Yes, I am. Not the attractiveness as has been well covered now, but everything else � most definitely.

It hasn�t been a chore, no. In the early months after D-day, I loved doing things for H because of how close I felt to him. (See my posts from December - February.) But� I�m feeling my Taker nudging me recently and that bothers and concerns me. I�m the adulterer so I�m supposed to give without receiving � I get that. The reality is it�s getting difficult to squelch my desire to be loved and valued and wanted. Maybe it's too early still and I don't deserve it. But that doesn't mean that I don't want it. Perhaps you're picking up on this.

L4,

Maybe I was projecting some of my H's and my experience. We get into situations where our givers and takers get out of balance and swing back and forth like some sort of wild pendulum. And then we end up with two takes and neither one of us wants to "go first" at getting back the balance.

I think you not only should want to be valued, but should be valued. At some point, the BS needs to just stop bringing up the A. And the WS has to find a way of self-forgiveness.

You seem to have a horrendous schedule. Why do you take on so much? I used to work a 60+ hour week, tend the house and kids, plan the family vacations and always thought I was really on top of everything. The work really fed my admiration and conversation needs. In the meantime, my H, mostly, and I, to a lesser degree, began more and more independent behaviors - not because we did not want to consider each other's feelings, but because we just did not take the time to talk things over. We nearly lost the most important thing (our M) to both of us.

Sorry, this is starting to sound like useless rambling.

AM

Yes, L4, but, you had a deep, dark secret re the initial affair tha tmy have been impacting on the dynamics of your relationship. So,who knows how your H may have responded to your sharing feelings had this weight not been there.
I know folks feel that what their spouses do not know for a fact could not have influenced them or the interactions between a couple. But, there is a good chance that on some level,he knew something was wrong, that he had been played.
And, clearly, L4 , you carried this inside of you and it my have impacted the dynamic between you.
The last year or so is the first time there has been honesty in your marriage. So, I don't think that his past disregard of your feelings neccessarily means this is the way he will always act. Of course , this early on, with all the pain and confusion, it's pretty hard to say what he will be like.

L4, I just wanted to pick up on these specific points and comments. You are a healthy weight. A little less junk food and a little more exercise in your life is a good thing. It is good that your daughter sees you eating well and taking exercise, but in my opinion it is not healthy for your daughter to see you struggling to lose weight to meet some societal ideal for women to be a certain size.

I'm sorry but I have yet to see a size 2 woman who appears healthy or even that attractive. I think Victoria Beckham looks grotesque. JMO. More likely they are setting themsleves for a future of osteoporosis, shrinking frames and fragility. Studies usually show that the vast majority of men like women who have a little more flesh on their bones, ie an american size 6-8, curves in the right places but toned and athletic looking.

I have a daughter too and it makes my blood boil when I see her looking at fashion magazines with stick insects or lollipop heads for models. It is mostly unhealthy and unattainable to be that size and weight.

I've seen a picure of you L4 and you're very attractive. Has your H always wished you to be a size 2? What size were you when you met him? Is there more going on with this wish than it being a weight issue? Is it a desire to exert some control of you maybe or a method of keeping your self esteem low because maybe he thinks you are less likely to repeat the A if you are unhappy?

Just thinking aloud here because it seems to me that there is more going on here and I don't like the thought of you feeling unhappy about your weight when your weight seems and has been confirmed as perfectly fine.

L4, you have to be happy with the way you look - that has to be the most important thing. You have to love yourslef

I understand that you have to get the PA thing right - but doesn't so much of that PA come from being happy with yourself.

A lot of this I am in agreement with Sere - I don't like my wedding photos because I look too skinny - witch like bony hands.

Your weight is confirmed as fine - I'd ask the same control question as Sere- there are a lot of men that do this (might not even be aware that they are).

L4,

I might understand your husband's POV here...

My wife had an affair (actually more than one) during the early days of our marriage. At the beginning of that time she started watching what she ate and began working out (she had been a size 13/14 after the birth of our daughter) and after about a year and a half she was wearing size 5 jeans. She looked so good that when we went places I would watch other men's reaction to her, laughing to myself as guys would walk into things turning their heads to get a better look. If you're gonna wear jeans, then this is the way they should fit...

Then she got pregnant again, gained some weight and after some losing the excess was a size 7 for a while, still cheating, I might add.

When she stopped cheating, she changed everything about the way she looked. She wore little makeup, baggy jeans and sweatshirts, sneakers instead of heels...She became frumpy and a size 14 once more.

Years later she began to diet, walking a few miles per day, signed up for a contest related to getting in shape, started working out like a fiend and before long was a size 4. I loved it at first, buying her clothes including a short leather skirt which at nearly 50 she made look like it was wasted on younger women. She was 49 and looked more like 30, had men's heads on swivels again and even made me walk into things. Heels became the norm; bare shoulders showed off her well toned arms and neck; skirts as short as any she wore as a teenager showed off her fantastic looking legs. Guys let her cut in line in front of her just so the could look at her from behind.

At the peak of this time her step mother was called up and was said to be destined for Baghdad. (Turned out that SM's bad knee kept her state-side) but my wife began traveling the 400+ miles to care for her house. At first it was leave on Friday afternoon and return on Sunday night. Then it was work 4 10s so that she could leave Friday morning. Soon it was leave Thursday night, then Thursday afternoon straight from work and then Thursday morning for a meeting half way there before noon that day. The return got later and later until it was sales calls on Monday afternoon less than an hour from where she was staying. She was now living there and only visiting here on Tuesdays and Wednesdays, with an occasional Monday night thrown in for good measure. Yep, you can see the pattern alright...

But when the affair was over and she was no longer going to the area where OM lived and she was staying home every night or going with me to our vacation property or we were doing something else together...

She began to eat to feed her emotions. She quickly reached a size 12. Heels hurt her feet and back. Her back hurts all the time, so she can't work out. She has more responsibility at work so she can't work out. Her life is more stressful so she can't take time to watch what she is eating. She can't be bothered with stockings and skirts so wears jeans and sweatshirts and looks frumpy and mid 50s and...

From my POV, twice in her life she worked hard to get into fantastic shape. Both times other men got to reap the benefit. When she is faithful she is frumpy. When she looks great, she cheats. Probably not completely accurate, but how it feels some times...

Mark

I think it boils down to this: (JMHO)...

Is it the EFFORT that is more important (ie, H sees you eating well, exercising... maybe not as much as during the A, because as you've outlined things have changed, and I believe that and that you aren't just making excuses).... and even if you maybe dropped 10 lbs or so, but didn't ever reach 116 (BTW, that is a ridiculously low weight for someone your size-- I'd be concerned too!)-- that he'd be happy because he'd see you really ARE taking his needs for PA into consideration...

Or is it really that he just wants you to weight 116 no matter what the cost?

Because if its A, I think that's reasonable and feasible, even with your (ridiculously busy) schedule. If its B... then I think we're more onto what Sere was saying. And a completely different ball game.

As an example, my H tends to "prefer" blondes. Most women he's dated in the past have been blondes, and if you ask him about celebrities, etc, almost all he'd say are attractive are blondes.

My hair is JET BLACK. There's no way it is getting blonde... without me looking ridiculous. If you try to put blonde highlights in it, it turns orange way before it ever turns blonde... making me look stupid (I've tried). If you bleach longer... well, it gets fried and crispy... and white... which then makes me look like a skunk (yep, had that look way back in highschool. Not sure what I was thinking).

It does take some level of "accepting" the person that you are, is my point. It doesn't seem that you are a couch potato that is eating McDonalds every day. Maybe you could put a little more effort into not snacking, but I see your point with things being hard with H wanting to eat rich foods and not really being supportive of your efforts. That might just be something you have to learn to deal with though...

I guess I have a few fundamental issues with PA and FS as EN's. I think they are legitimate, don't get me wrong-- but I also think that they need to be "reality checked" too. While I do have an EN for FS... I would never expect my H to bring home so much $$ that I could quit my job and eat bon-bons all day long. That's ridiculous. I would like him to hold a steady job that can reasonably support our (not over the top) life style as it is... (and I also contribute to that lifestyle too). And that level of ridiculous is what weighing 116 at 5'5 is like, to me. Or me having blonde hair (ain't gonna happen). Sometimes those EN's need a reality check.

E.

E,

The point I was trying to make was that I don't care what weight she is, my wife looked her best and tired her best when she was not faithful and now that she is, she doesn't seem to care what she looks like. The effort went into looking good for someone else. For me, it really doesn't matter. She expects me to accept her and love her no matter what.

Which is part of what allowed the affair to happen, in my opinion. I'm safe, always there and require no effort. I only need to be kept happy enough to not leave her and don't have to be attracted enough to be tempted into a relationship with her, since our relationship predates our lives today.

What I was going to ask L4, was what advice would she give my wife, if she were here asking for advice after relating her story. (Which, BTW, I am guessing she would never be able to tell from my POV any more than L4 can always empathize with her H's POV)

Barring being able to tell my wife what to do, what would you tell me to do? Am I simply destined to just let go of the past, get nothing in the way of restitution and be reminded of the way she attracted other men but doesn't care if I am attracted to her or not?

Gotta get to work.

I'll be back...

Nah, Mark... of course you deserve (and L4's H deserves) that "effort".

I guess that was the point I was trying to make in the very beginning...

What's important to L4's H? The fact that he sees her making effort, and caring about her appearance (including weight) for him? Or that she weighs 116- no matter the cost (health, family, etc)?

'Cause if it is the former, I get that. And I think L4 should make that effort for him. If its the latter... again, I think that's a whole 'nother ball of wax.

I think we're on the same page here, I just didn't articulate what I was trying to say very well.

Yup, I think she should give it the effort. And I bet she'd lose some weight in the process. But I think having a goal of 116 lbs-- no matter the cost-- is ridiculous.

E.

Like I said, I have a really hard time with this concept of not accepting someone's body type. I doubt that L4 could have sustined the effort to be so slim for the OM indefinitely. But, I completely understand her H's and Mark's consternation re the efforts these women put into jacking up their appearance for the OM vs what they are willing to do for their BHs in that area.
Man, these action that WSs undertake have all types of far reaching effects. It seems very common that a WS cranks up the physical attractiveness efforts during an affair and it is clearly an indication to the BS that the W S values them less than the affair partner.
My wife had three kids. I never was bothered by her weight gain. During the affair and in preparation for the hunt/prowl or a partner, she lost a ton of weight and improved her grooming. Amazing that she would not put any effort into these areas for my benefit when I was supporting her and the kids and was a decent guy.
L4 , have you explained to your H why you got yourself in such good shape for this other guy? How does he feel about it? Does he feel the other guy is more attractive than him or has something else that made him a bigger prize than your H?

Thank you so much for this dialogue. I'm not able to answer all questions right now and thank y'all for the PA conversation because I need it. Which is why I'm bopping in for a post while eating at my desk -- turkey, green salad (no dressing) and yogurt. I think having historical insight will be helpful in addressing this for me.

I was an active tomboy growing up and was a jock through high school when H and I started dating. I played intermural sports in college, took a PE course almost every quarter, and was a cheerleader one year. (It was a very small private college with a total of 4 on the squad -- USC cheerleaders we were not.) I married at age 28 and was about 132 lbs at the time.

We moved to So Cal when I was 29 years and then is when I first gained weight. No kids, some decent money, and my H and I went out a lot. I got into the 140s. I could tell H didn't care for it though he never said so flat out. Just comments like, "Should you be eating that?" and "You seem to be gaining weight." I didn't like the gain either especially since we lived in the land of beach bodies.

We moved to San Francisco and I got up into the high 150s then joined Weight Watchers. Back to low 140s then got pregnant. I got up to 200 lbs.

A few months after birth I was so ready for SF but H turned me down because he said he was not attracted to me when I was fat -- that he isn't turned on by fat women. This was the first I had ever heard that from him and I was devastated, having recently birthed our first child. I was 165 lbs at the time. We didn't have SF while I was pregnant either even though in the first and second trimester I was really horny. H said he didn't want to because he felt strange doing it with baby in there, but when he made this comment after being pregnant, I believed he might have been lying before and didn't have sex with me during my pregnancy because of my size, not the baby. (Yes, a DJ.)

I lost weight and got pregnant again.

After DD6 was born, I joined Weight Watchers and I did a triathlon.

I kept up the work-outs for a little longer then had a surgery that winter that prevented me from working out for 6 weeks. That's all it took. I got out of my exercise routine but didn't get out of the eating routine.

It was an evening in mid-January '08. I needed a pair of jeans. I was in the Sears dressing room and I was squeezing into a pair of size 10s when I determined that I was only going to buy one pair because the situation was unacceptable. I felt sluggish, my clothes didn't fit, and H and I weren't having SF (other then rare drunk or 2am-wake-up-do-it-and-roll-overs). I was fed-up with myself.

The next morning I hopped on the scale to mark the start (157 lbs) then hopped on the treadmill. It was about 3 weeks later while on a business trip that FOM told me he was very attracted to me. I weighed around 150 at the time. When I returned home from that trip, H was gone for the next week and I continued the work-out routine but did it every day instead of 3 or 4 days a week. FOM and I talked more and I worked out more and ate less. You know what happened after NC in June and the rest of it.

That's my fitness/health history.

H has seen me from my junior high days of 100 lbs to my pregnant days of 200 lbs. I have been physically active most of my life so it didn't take having an affair to get fit. The A, however, did play a role in me working very hard at it those first few months. After the A, I continued the routine to avoid detection and keep my mind off of my hell. But then surgery and daughter... And done.

I will answer specific questions later because there is something to what Sere, ST, and E are saying -- and I want everyone's thoughts in case I'm reading something into H's behaviors that are unfair. I want to answer your questions too, Mark and Zelmo.

It's been a year and I'm beyond the question, so I want to change my thread's title. How do I do this?

Notify the mods and have them do it for you, though your new title already shows up in the active posts list just as you have it now. The entire thread title can only be changed for a short time before being locked once the first post can no longer be edited.

Mark

Don't know, L4.
Have you seen that infomercial for the Power 90 X, deal.
One of my buddies is doing it and he is cut. Thye give a lot of info on eating right, too.
He does his workout at home, and very little equipment is needed. This would save travel nad, perhaps showering time.
Stretching, eh? Well, I just heard a guy claiming it was bad for you. Compared it to continuously stretching a rubber band, causing a loss of elasticity. He is an idiot, however.
I've never understood the craze about the new generation of anorexic women. Who wants to curl up with a sack of antlers?

I was looking to put a positive spin on the title, but I think I'll go with something simple. Thanks for help.

Mark,

I gather from what you've written that it's not just your wife's body size that makes you pause but her appearance as a whole.

I can and have done frumpy, but that hasn't depended on my weight. If it's a non-work day, it's rainy and cold outside, and I don't have to go anywhere, I'm guilty of throwing my hair up in a ponytail, putting on the comfy sweats, and going without make-up for the day. When I worked from home this was often the look (even during the A) which I used to brag saved us money on panty-hose, make-up, and expensive work clothes. FOM saw me like this too, as we had web-cams set up on our computers. I like to dress and smell nice, but before D-day I didn't look nice just for men.

What I wear (make-up or clothes) might vary, but general grooming and hygiene has almost always been important to me. (Credit my father who often preached on being clean and well-groomed. "It's a sign of respect," he says.)

I wear heels most of the time. Whether it's short boots, knee-high boots, pumps, sandals, strappy shoes, clogs... Even if I'm just dropping in on a girlfriend, 7 times out of 10, I opt for a heel.

I wash my face virtually every night and my dentist thinks I'm superstar because of how well I take care of my teeth.

It was you, Mark, and other men here on MB who encouraged me as part of my own plan A to make sure I look and smell nice for H. I haven't done so every day, but far more than I had before D-day. I shave a heck of a lot more often. I'm keeping up on my waxing and beauty salon visits. I take care of my nails. I wear earrings 99% of the time. I usually opt for a cute camisole, nice t-shirt or top and a skirt, jeans, or my H's favorite black pants, even if I'm just hanging around the house. (Though lately I don't pick the tight stuff as much.) The scuzzy t-shirts are reserved for working-out, yard-work, and home-fix-it projects. I always groom my hair, often wear at least mascara, and I apply sweet-smelling lotions pretty much every day. Sometimes I even add perfume, even though I don't care for it much. And now that I'm working outside the home and with church on Sundays, I'm in full make-up and nice clothing 6 days a week. So in my case faithful does not equal frumpy.

As for your wife, being a master of O&H and POJA, have you ever sat down with Mrs. Mark and told her exactly how you feel about her lack of attention to her physical appearance? If yes, what was her response?

I can definitely tell you what NOT to say. I can also let you know what words would help me see your POV and would maybe help motivate me.