It can but nice but the fascination can turn into frustation especially when there is contact with moisture. I love my DD's curls...they are looser than mine...make perfect ringlets...she is soooo lucky but she still wants her hair straight.

Hi schtoop,

After reading Mark's LV post, it seems like his WW started to turn around earlier than the typical case. Most of us are not that lucky.

I've been a little over 6 months in this process and it seems like a lifetime. Others go a lot longer with little progress.

The thing is going one step at a time. Your WW not contacting OM may not seem as much now but that's a major milestone in this process. You see, NC is needed to move forward so you DO have a Little Victory there. And it was a direct result of your action of exposure so you should be proud.

I can't recall learning so much about life before. This has been sort of a boot camp. MB has been instrumental in staying hopeful in the face of what seemed as an insurmountable problem. Working the MB program have given me confidence and hope.

Remember that this is a process. Stick to plan A and be patient while not expecting anything in return from your WW. Stay strong and keep fighting for your M.

Best wishes

--ElCamino72

We live in the Caribbean so with the humidity you can imagine that my 3 curlies are in constant frizz panic mode.

Can somebody please explain me why curlies want straight and straight want curls???

--ElCamino72

ElCamino,

Your English is *better* than most native speakers. I'm very picky about spelling, grammar, and punctuation. Trust me, yours is excellent.

The hair, IMO, was a very big deal.

It violated POJA
It was IB on her part
It triggered you, and *she knew it would*
She lied about having done it
She missed an opportunity to deposit "attractive spouse" points

I find her decision to highlight her hair under those conditions exceedingly selfish and cruel.

Just about everything we do affects each other either positively or negatively.

That's a quote from the doctor in case you didn't know...

Oh, and just so you know, the time between discovery and when she turned around was absolute hell on Earth for me.

I discovered the affair while she was visiting her step mother who lived next door to OM and had been visiting any time I was planning to be home for the weekend for a couple of months. It was the rekindling of an EA that had laid dormant for 13 months because neither one of us knew what to do to recover from it.
It also wasn't her only affair during our marriage of over 30 years.

She was scheduled to spend the weekend and part of the upcoming week with me at our vacation property beginning Friday night. She was 400 miles away with OM that night and all the next day. I delayed confronting her till she showed up Sunday afternoon at which time she said she wanted a divorce. She asked for a divorce again two days later after talking to OM and again two days later after talking to him for two hours after leaving me and saying how she had enjoyed her time with me the night before.

I worked 70 hours or more per week for two months so I could get that week off to spend time with her and it was the worst week of my life. I actually began exposure (except for her twin) while she was on her way home from being with OM for 4 days. I had to wait till she was half way home so that if someone tipped her off she couldn't just turn around and head back. A bunch of other people knew before she knew that I knew.

That and my exceptional Plan A ...

Turned things around.


So maybe my Plan A was short, but believe me when I tell you it was pretty intense. It also began even before confrontation. I gave her flowers and fixed dinner and cleaned up before I even confronted her.

And the whole time I wanted to wring her neck...

There will not be another Plan A in my future.

Mark

Let me add to your list that this has not been the only time we've had a conflict about her hairstyle since D-Day. There's been at least 3 episodes of hairstyle related issues in the last few months. She recently asked me if I told on her to Steve Harley about her hairstyle. I jokingly answered: there's been quite a few conversations with Steve about your hair. Can you believe we're paying $200/hr to this guy to talk about hairstyle? She couldn't help to laugh with me.

The A actually started right around the time she had a major makeover and radically changed her hairstyle. The OM made a pass saying something along the line of "with that new look I can do you". This was on one of the many messages that I had the misfortune to read on D-Day. Makes me sick. The things is that OM was a supposedly "best friend". He knew very well how much I liked my FWWs natural hair. I even confided in him that I wasn't too ecstatic with her new style. He took advantage of that situation to play her.

Fortunately, since returning from the MB weekend, my FWW has been more receptive to the POJA. She actually darkened the highlights a few days ago. There's been some promising POJA actions initiated from her during the last week. We haven't had a situation yet where her commitment to the POJA has been tested. But lately, there's definitely a more positive attitude towards. That's one of the reasons I've been feeling that we're headed to a better place.

--ElCamino72

Mark,

Thanks for sharing your sitch. I am sure that was pretty intense. I am amazed at how well you've handled the situation.

I feel you when you say that there's no plan A in your future. Turning into 100% giver after a grave betrayal, watching a WS in withdrawal while keeping a happy face and not even getting a nice gesture in return is simply not meant for humans.

I don't see myself doing another plan A again if my M ever recovers. Specially after we have the MB tools there would be no excuses or reasons for another A. I don't think I'll be able to forgive a second offense. My ground rules are: "two strikes and you're out". This is a clear boundary for me.

BTW, Mark, it's motivating to read about successful MB R stories like yours. It helps people like me to keep going.

I appreciate the support.

--ElCamino72

My husband turned around so fast, it gave me whiplash. Has anyone heard of that happening. DD was 3 months ago and he wrote a letter that day to the OW without me asking. He called our minister and told him that he had been unfaithful, crying and begging for him to help save our marriage. He told his parents. He called our children and did not tell them specifically what had happened but told them that he had treated me with disrespect and not as I should have been treated all of these 25 years (EA lasted 2 months...but involved a lot of lying and tuning his family completely out). He then called my brothers and my parents and told them the same thing...then tells me almost daily through letters, email and conversation that he will spend the rest of his life proving his love to me. He cries sometimes out of shame and also because he sees me get upset about something. He begs for forgiveness, he says that there is nothing left inside of the person he used to be that it is like someone scooped it out and put something good inside. He is the first to identify any parasites in our path. If I cry, or have bad dreams he hugs me and tells me how sorry he is for the terrible pain he has caused. He says he feels better than he has ever felt in his life and has never felt love before like he feels now, he says he wasn't even capable of real love until God shook him to the very core of his being. He is extremely remorseful...continually, and this is no wimpy guy, he has cried probably 30 times about this. He feels so focused and inspired by his new path and new love for his family. Have you ever heard of this happening in this way? I have made very clear my boundaries and he knows how I feel and where I stand on this process of building back trust. Are you aware of any posts similar to my situation? I would love advice or direction to someone similar. Many Thanks.

Wow, everdear, THAT is some story!

And, it relates directly to the biggest source of my pain. Maybe not to this extent, but in my nievite (SP?) I expect some kind of reaction like this when I first discovered my wife's affair. I expected gallons of tears, begging for forgiveness, promises of major life changes.

Instead I got fogbobabble on how she's been empty for years, doesn't love me anymore, no real expression of remorse, and no committment to even try to save our marriage. All of this when SHE was the one who did wrong. That is what cut me to the core, not the actual affair.

After finding MB, now I find out that my story is the norm, and yours is truly remarkable. Good luck on rebuilding your marriage, it looks like you have a great head start.

El Camino, sorry to derail your thread.

El Camino...I am sorry to derail your thread too!

Hello everdear,

I'm sorry you find yourself here but I can say that you are in the right place. I'm fairly new here at MB but in the short time that I've been implementing the MB program it has helped me tremendously. Since I don't have much experience, I don't know what to say about your prompt recovery. I can say that it doesn't look like the typical case that we see around here. Post your sitch and listen carefully to what the vets have to say.

Schtoop,

I understand perfectly how miserable you can feel when the WS doesn't show real remorse. After D-Day I left home for about 5 days. My WW send me numerous messages saying that she regretted hurting me and apologizing. The day I returned home, I thought that I was decided to D. I bought 2 copies of a book about how to tell children that you are getting D and gave one to my WS. She was crying and literally begging for me to give her a chance. Her remorse convinced me to change my mind. That day I promised her that I was going to do my best to give our M the best chance possible.

Unfortunately, that initial remorse didn't last too long. A few days after, when she started to get in withdrawal from OM she turned into a nasty WS. After that glimpse of remorse, I was left with a great deal of anger and abuse from WW and her strong sense of entitlement.

I realize that I was fooled with her fake remorse to come back home. She wasn't ready for me to leave her so she bait me with tears. To this day, she hasn't shown signs of being remorseful. It hurts me and I resent it. But that also taught me to be cautious about expecting apologies or remorse from an offender.

How do I deal with it? I've come to realize that to get into R I don't need her to be remorseful. At this point I just need to be vigilant about NC and build connectedness with her. Those are my immediate goals so I've learned to expect nothing from her in terms of remorse.

Does it mean that I am going to be able to completely R without her showing remorse? I don't know. Time will tell. My hunch is that in time, I am going to need to see some remorse to feel more secure. But, I don't want forced apologies or fake remorse so I am not going to ask for it. It's got to come genuinely from her.

I am working on my current goals of building connectedness with the hope that in the future she may realize how bad she hurt me and thank me for fighting for our marriage. But that's not under my control so, for the moment, I am choosing to let go of that. So I am mainly working towards R for myself. As a growing experience.

Not too long after D-Day I wrote a "mission statement". It was my instinctive way of a pseudo plan A. I've got to admit that it was mostly plan C (for confusion). I wasn't lucky enough to find MB soon so I was trying my best to survive. In essence, most of this mission statement is still valid. I've carried it in my wallet since I wrote it and I typically read it when I am getting frustrated. I like to remind myself that R is my choice - I signed up for it so I'll do my best effort and I am not going to be easily discourage. I am doing it for my benefit so I can't let the actions of others get me off course. This is what I wrote:


I've decided to recover my marriage so I am going to make an enormous effort to achieve that. I'll do it without expecting anything in return. I'll do it because it will make me grow as a person and help me in the long run to heal and be happy wherever I decide to take my life.

I am letting go of any notion that I can get someone to do what I want. I am not going to put myself in a position where I'd be indefinitely unhappy. I am strong enough to make the decisions that will provide me with happiness and follow through.

I'll focus on what is within my control and stay positive. I do have control over how to protect myself and I am willing to do so when necessary while trying to avoid having emotions get the best out of me.

I can use logic under stressful and emotionally loaded situations in order to see through problems and to find solutions in an efficient manner. I've previously come through under extreme situations and this time it is not going to be any different. I will make it out of this with the happiness I deserve.

--ElCamino72

My FWW and I have planned to move to the USA this summer. I've wanted to move even before her A. The time to prepare for relocation has come and we need to get busy if we're going. But I don't see my FWW truly enthusiastic about it.

During the last few weeks her relatives and friends have learned that we're moving. They don't know about FWW's A so they subtly object or blame me for taking her away. What I really hate is that she doesn't tell people anything about her wanting to move.

Her explanation to people is that I've always wanted to move and I've been unhappy here. She tells them that I am selling my business to go back. Yes, that's true but IMO it's a little disingenuous to put it all on me. And I hate to be in the position of the bad guy taking her away from friends and family.

I asked her a couple of days ago about how she felt about our move. She said that it was a great idea because it'd be a good change of pace for me and that our DDs would get to attend better schools. I asked her: Honey, I understand that this is a good move for ME and our DDs, but what about you? She backpedaled a lot and didn't sound too enthused. Even though my FWW won't admit it, she sounds like she's trying to convince herself rather than being positive about us moving.

I told her that we shouldn't be moving unless we both have an enthusiastic agreement. She replied that we don't have much of a choice other than moving. The thing is that the way she sounds is like I am forcing her to move. FWW claims that she doesn't want to be apart from her relatives but she is willing to make the sacrifice.

I am considering pulling the plug on our plans to move. Right now I am feeling discouraged because I can sense that R will be extremely difficult if we don't move away from a whole lot of bad influence that's getting in the way. Can't help to think that if we stay here, the price to R would be to high for me. Additionally, I don't want any sacrifices from her because that can easily backfire.

I'd appreciate your comments and suggestions about this situation.

--ElCamino72

Move.

WW is still foggy. Neither WW or you will heal if you don't move.

My wife has started posting in the forum under the username Rizos. This is a very positive action from her part. I hope that the vets can provide us with further insight.

Here�s a quick update:

- Since last week I�ve been involved in heavy negotiations with OM and the buyers of my share of the company. Having to sit in a table across from OM is the ultimate test of restraint. All I�m thinking is here�s your worst enemy and how can you keep your mind on top of the negotiations when every inch of you wants to jump across the table and smash this POS.
- I had to be rushed to the hospital with a bad case of indigestion and an unbearable stomach ache. This could�ve been compounded by stress. I�ve been feeling like I am physically and mentally breaking down.
- I�ve been feeling quite disconnected from Rizos. I�ve been struggling with her comments to her friends and relatives on the reasons why we�re relocating and that she continues to lie to �protect� me. I�ve confirmed various discrepancies in how she explains certain situations to other people and to myself.
- Per Steve Harley suggestion I tried to express to her my feeling of disconnection. I was very cautious in how I brought this issue up and avoided LBs as Steve suggested. That didn�t go well since her reaction was a barrage of abuse. That felt like the drop that spilled the bucket.

It seems like after Rizos last round of LBs she has realized the impact of her abuse. Since that incident she�s been trying harder to meet my ENs which is refreshing. However, it�s been challenging for her because she doesn�t feel comfortable expressing herself. I�ve requested her to tell me the truth and to tell me what she�s thinking.

I�m looking for a second wind to get back to the previous level of plan A. Right now I�m avoiding LBs but my motivation to meet her ENs is limited.

Do you have any suggestions on how to explain my need for O&H and intimate conversation to Rizos?

Here�s a link to her thread:
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2329404

Your help is greatly appreciated.

--ElCamino72

My exit of the company was recently revealed to some of my closest co-workers by OM. Right then, they were given legal papers to sign away intellectual property in a move by the buyers to secure rights to some of the work we've been doing. The co-workers were very upset about me leaving without a heads up and expressed that they were being left out to dry. These are people I know since college and that I personally recruited and relocated to work with me. I told them about the reasons that caused me to leave the company including the details of Rizos� A with my former business partner. They are understandably afraid of the pressure to sign new employment agreements and their job being in jeopardy.

That day, when I got home, Rizos asked me if I was OK. I told her about my guy's concerns. She asked me right away if I revealed them the reason why I'm leaving. I replied yes and her immediate comment was "Well, now it's everybody for themselves. At least I don't have to face these guys again." I said: "Too bad I do have to face them. I'm embarrassed and hurt by having to be in this position". I realized at that instant that my response may have been a DJ and bit my tongue to avoid lashing out. She then realized that her comment was upsetting to me, so she gave me her usual "I'm sorry I hurt you" in a tone that doesn't sound anything like an apology and changed the subject. Her reaction was as cold-hearted as it gets. These guys we know for 15 years and have been very close friends to both of us. The consequences of Rizos's has put their families in a precarious situation while her main concern is her own image.

The fallout of selling my company under these circumstances continues to make huge LU withdrawals and it's physically/mentally grueling. I am opting to take a couple of rounds in a more defensive / counter mode - perhaps a week or two in a tactical regroup stance. I'll still stay highly guarded and avoid LBs. However, during this period I'll be more conservative in meeting Rizos's ENs and put a pause on the MB Weekend follow up program. The tactic is to take a short breather to regain some energy before I jump back to a high level of plan A. I realize that this is a very risky move but I'm willing to do a little rope-a-dope in hopes that I can take the fight into the championship rounds.


--ElCamino72

She's probably still in the WW mindset. You shouldn't expect anything else but that type of reaction at this time. The unfeeling "I'm sorry" (or worse, the pseudo-apologetic "I'm sorry that you are feeling that way" type of comment) is also a typical sign of a WW mindset.

EC,

As recovery progresses it will not be taking a break but learning to work together that will increase your energy and resolve to go on.

Withdrawal is a sign that your Love Bank has taken a serious hit. Withdrawing from her will not improve the way you feel nearly as much as her learning to meet your ENs. As hard as it is, spending time (UA time) together will be more likely to help you heal.

I also know, from reading a bit of what she posted that it seems that your top EN right now is honesty and openness. This is typical for someone who has been lied to for any period of time. I would not discount your need for honesty but warn you that it will probably be getting her to meet your ENs of RC and SF while you meet hers of Conversation and Affection that will be the things that help you to rebuild intimacy and start to feel bonded together again.

These four, the Intimate emotional needs (IENs), are the ones that lead to intimacy and feeling connected. They can also only really be met during time spent alone together and should be the focus of any scheduled UA time, keeping in mind that UA time is the key to making the whole MB thing work. Ideally your UA time should be spent meeting these four IENs together as a group, that is, all four should be done as part of spending UA time together.

Again, I am not discounting that honesty is not your top need right now, but it is more a case of needing most what has been lacking for so long than honesty actually depositing huge values into your Love Bank.

It's sort of like wandering around outside in the winter time without a jacket on. As your body gets colder and colder you have only one need that you can focus on, that of getting inside and warming up. But as you sit by the fire and begin to get warmer, you'll find that you are also quite thirsty and once that has been somewhat satisfied you'll soon come to realize that you also need to eat because of hunger. What you need most is what you don't have enough of or haven't been getting for a while. Like air, you don't even know you need it until you can't breath.

But the four IENs can only be met during UA time and being properly met as a block of all four will make the most rapid and biggest deposits into your Love Banks, in most cases. Honesty, FS, DS, FC, Admiration and PA can all be met at many other times while other people are present and even when you are not together in some cases. But RC, Affection, SF and Intimate Conversation can really only be met when you spend time alone. During this time honesty can come into play but should probably not involve affair issues or other subjects that end up being love busters by triggering your memories of betrayal, which will result in your feeling the same emotions as when you first discovered the betrayal and each act of betrayal that followed.

If 15 hours of UA time is the minimum to sustain a relationship then in a case of having to recreate the intimacy of a relationship even more should be planned. 20 or even 25 hours per week for a few weeks will make a huge difference in the way you each feel about the other, even a weekend away or a short vacation alone can reap huge dividends for both Love Banks, assuming all talk about the affair, recovery from the affair and character issues can be avoided. (NO love busters!)

So while it feels like you need to get away and calm down, stop the drama and let the stress slip away, recovery will be more rapid if you can spend more recreational time together and severely limit the time devoted to "recovery" activity.

Expect the line to continue being "I'm sorry, but..." for a while. "Why" is less important than "how" it happened and "how" will hopefully lead her to "what" she can do to make sure it never happens again. Transparency will allow you to verify when she is being honest independently and that will lessen your need to delve into her every move. Dishonesty of any kind, even hiding the fact that a glass got dropped on the floor and broken will take away huge amounts of trust at a time. If Trust = Credibility + Empathy, transparency will allow you to measure C while she is demonstrating E. By being totally transparent, she can let you see that she is honest and at the same time show you that she is concerned about the way you feel.

It will be what she does to show you care that will help you heal and while she must be the one to do this, you have to allow her to show you that she cares.

Mark

"They are understandably afraid of the pressure to sign new employment agreements and their job being in jeopardy."

How critical is the success of the company if these people leave without signing?

El Camino,

I have been following your story and it hits home with what I've been going through lately.

I don't have any great insight, other than to echo Mark's post above.

Also, you can actually look at the "drop that spilled the bucket" as a positive. My WW is in a similar place as yours when it pertains to being emotionally withdrawn from me and the marriage. In order to start reconnecting, you two have to be able to share your feelings and emotions with each other and know that the other understands. The barage of verbal abuse you took the other day is the beginning of that process. She has a ton of anger (and guilt disguised as anger) that has to come out first. I know that some of these feelings are the usual fog of rewriting history, but there is also a degree of truth in what she is expressing. More importantly, whether its all fog or not, it is what she feels through her warped perception.

Try to steer these kinds of conversations away from insults, personal attacks, or other forms of abuse, but if she's expressing what she feels at the time you need to be attentive and try to empathize. It really is the beginning of the process of opening up.

Try to hang in there with plan A and strive for the 15 hours as Mark advised. I know the feeling of disconnectedness and its hard to plan A under those circumstances, but it needs to be done to break through. Look for any opportunity when she might be opening up to you and be doubly attentive. What comes out will probably be unpleasant and hurtful, but if you can listen to her calmly and try to empathize, it will start opening the door a little.

By the way, your advice to me about not expecting remorse right away, if ever, was very helpful.

EC,

Just a little clarification in case it's needed...

Discussion of the weather will lead to more healing and Love Bank deposits than discussion of the affair. By that I mean that it will be implementing the MB methods and practicing them in your marriage that will eventually pay dividends for both your ability to heal and the potential recovery of your marriage.

During Plan A we learn to meet ENs and avoid Love Busters. In recovery we begin to get back a little of the same and once recovered we continue meeting ENs and avoiding Love Busters in order to maintain our love for each other. The difference between the first and second is that we are no longer fighting the affair and so don't have to provide additional consequences any more for choices being made by the hopefully Former WS. The major difference between the second and third is that we should be getting back enough so that we ourselves are not draining our Love Bank in an effort to Give while not getting.

But each step along the way is a process and not an event.

Dr Harley says that whenever we seek to resolve a conflict our primary goal should always be to sustain our love for each other more so than finding a resolution to the conflict. This is why POJA requires that we do nothing until there is enthusiastic agreement and not coerced or forced agreement such as a sales closing method being employed by one spouse to gain at the expense of the other. Any conflict should be handled in such a way as to make deposits into BOTH Love Banks or to avoid making any withdrawals from either Love Bank.

Understanding why she had an affair isn't very likely to happen; so looking for the reason she hurt you beyond admission that she did is probably fruitless. Usually the best a WS can come up with for a reason, especially at first, is normally just the list of things used to justify the affair at the time it was taking on a life of its own. It will never make sense to you so trying to make sense of it is pretty pointless. It isn't a sensible thing to do to someone you love, which is what the real problem was, she fell out of love.

Discussion of the affair should probably be limited to at most once per week and only last as long as either of you can handle it without love busting. It should be a time set aside for discussion and the answering of questions. Again avoid even asking why, since the best answer anyone will ever be able to give you is that "I didn't care about your feelings" or "I was being totally selfish."

Try writing down questions you would like answered. Keep this list and the day before look over what you have written, editing or modifying or eliminating questions that are less important to know the answers of and only ask her the questions that are most important. The way to tell what is most important is to ask yourself if the answer will cause you to change anything going forward. For example if the affair was only at a motel you might be able to remain in your house but if it happened in your home you might have a need to move to a new house in order to avoid being constantly triggered into remembering the affair.

Only questions that will change your direction based on the answers really need answers. The rest are just a mulling over of the events and feelings and might be able to be dealt with differently than by prying all the details from her as if pulling teeth without benefit of anesthesia. If I ask a question and the answer is "A" and as a result of that answer I will do "X", but if the answer is "B" or almost any other answer I will do "Y" or "Z" instead, then the question is worth asking.

But if the answer is "A" and I will do "X" as a result and if the answer is "B" and I will still do 'X" as the result, then the question really doesn't need an answer because it will not change any condition that follows it no matter what the answer might be. If the outcome will not be affected by the answer, don't ask the question.

It will not be the discussions of the affair that will ultimately lead to healing and recovery. It will be what you do to meet each other's Intimate Emotional Needs and avoid Love Busters that will result in a healthy happy marriage or the lack of the same. So learning to implement the MB process to rebuild the romantic love in your relationship will be the solution to fixing what is broken. This is what makes MB different than all the other methods of marital therapy out there. The first order of business is to be in love with each other. Everything else can follow from that but it was falling in love with each other that brought you together and in the long run it will be what keeps you together in a happy relationship. It is the foundation of your relationship and love for each other will be what sustains that relationship in the long run.

Do not discount calling Steve or Jennifer for a few phone sessions or taking the home or on-line study courses. Better still would be the MB weekend, but actually both learning how to meet ENs and avoiding Love Busters is what will make it all come together.

When a house needs repair it can be tempting to paint and replace windows or fix the roof. We put down new carpeting and cover over the fact that the floor slopes and is buckled because the foundation is defective. No matter how much you spend on paint or windows or carpeting or appliances if the foundation crumbles the house will fall down and all the effort will be for nothing. The foundation of your marriage is your love for each other. Fix that first and the marriage will hold together whether anything else gets fixed completely or not.

Mark