Bear in mind L4's H is dealing with serial infidelity and was lied to for over a decade, I believe. In effect, years and years of his life were stolen from him as the marriage was based on her lying from the beginning. I'm sure he is pissed as hell about this, not to mention traumatized. I mean, losing that much of your life is tough.
I don't think a year of working this program begins to scratch the surface. And, I do not think he voluntarily clings to his pain and anger. Those things were forced on him. He has had a rough childhood and that plays a big role.
It's 2-5 years in a typical cheating situation for recovery, right? Here we have serial infidelity, fraud in the inducement to marry, a WS who slimmed down like crazy for the OM, and years and years of lying. Yet, about 20% into the recovery time for a standard cheating deal, folks are getting on his case. This is one of the more egregious cases, as it went on so long. Robbed the guy of his youth.

It is hard to imagine, how would you ever deal with this ???? You didn't have the chance,(I am sorry for you for that btw) and I think that is where the difference is when there is talk about L4 seeking some sign, other than him remaining M'd, that there is chance of R.
Had your mother had a remorseful and repentant H, willing to undo all of his wrongs and make her feel safe, she maybe would have regained her love for him. I don't know, I'm speculating.
Had my H not wanted to help heal me, I would not be healing. I could not do that on my own.
If I gave him no sign, after a year of him trying to repair the damage, his motivation would dwindle.
Should his motivation dwindle, since what he did to me was unspeakable, no ..... but we aren't suppose to be keeping score.

On the other hand, as my own R carries on, I'm understanding what you say next, more and more.
Being lied to for so many years, takes a toll. It does make you question those years of M and all that was experienced between you
as a couple. Was it sincere, was it real, is there more that I don't know????
In spite of that, for the sake of the family, a BS needs to make a decision to stay and try to rebuild, or to go. The timeline of when to go is up to the BS. To keep a WS in limbo, not really committing to R and no indication of D, is not healthy for the family.
To me it's not a responsible thing to do since it affects the family, not just the WS.

Zelmo, I'm not trying to argue your POV, really , I am giving you mine, someone who is living this R ordeal.
And .... it's just that, my POV.

Vit, Mr. L4 doesn't have an MB program, or support like we get here. He may well think that he is rebuilding. How is he going to know what L4 wants if she's not telling him, because she hasn't reinforced her boundaries strong enough to make herself feel safe enough to tell him? I mean, yes he could run across this program on his own, but L4 has plenty of relevant information and support to share. She doesn't have to do all the pushing on her own. She could brainstorm with him. Many times I was silent because I feared becoming a target of another AO. When I had the support here that I needed to keep negotiating respectfully, instead of retreating. I lost a lot of love for my H that way, afraid to speak up.

Hi Looking... how are you tonight. Have the rains stopped?

V - I know that about sleep and it's impact on health and diet and it is certainly true in my case. Sleep has a big impact on my health/fitness. I park further away from the store, I return grocery carts, I take the stairs -- almost always if 3 stories or less - and have stairs in my home. I'll keep looking for those opportunities. I've done well this week with watching portions and making good choices. I love feeling desirable to H too. It's been too long.

ST - You can talk about you here any time. And thanks for this thought:
LG - I want to be forgiven. I'm not expecting it to happen. I've been told by H that he doesn't think he ever will be able to. It is part of my wishlist and I think it's the least probable. Honestly, I don't know of anyone in H's life who is not supporting our M. Yes, they may be telling H something and he may not be sharing with me their names, but our closest mutual friends tell me they hope we make it as does MIL, FIL, and other in-laws. And yes, they could be lying to me. I think H made the comment about people in general, though it is possible others I don't know of may have said something.

Sere - My top ENs are: Affection, Conversation, Admiration, Family Commitment, SF. Domestic support ebbs and flows in there too. Meeting Affection is much better, but it's initiated by me probably 85% of the time and it does not include kisses on the lips. I love to kiss... We talk a lot more though it's mostly about our jobs and because H hates his so much, he talks a lot about his horrible job. And that's not fun conversation. Admiration... He says thank you more and shows appreciation more, but I don't feel respected by him (I understand why this would be hard for him) and the appreciation sometimes feels forced and insincere. Family Commitment is better but not near where I'd like it. I'd like SF a least a few times a week and we aren't near that either. Domestic support he was big on after D-day but it's waning a lot in recent weeks.

Zelmo - I disagree with your thought that H doesn't voluntarily hang onto his pain and anger. H has a difficult time letting go of the negative. H holds a grudge and will tell you he does. He has said he is more comfortable being miserable then taking a chance at being happy. For the record, I've been in and have gotten in great shape throughout our relationship -- my slimming for the FOM was not the only time I've done that. But I get what you're saying. Your post broke my heart. I have no idea why I'm putting H through this.

NED - I have shared a lot of MB with H. I have extended the multiple offers from MB folks to email with H. I have given him the EN Q and asked him twice to fill it out. I have dropped some MB ideas in here in there. I have left books lying around including Harley books and the Abandonment book Zelmo recommended. A couple of months ago I mentioned to H that I want to do another session with Steve. He was very unenthusiastic about it. Would it be an LB to do it anyway?

Queenie - It was raining when I left Seattle very early this morning. I'm in Ann Arbor for the next few days. I need to check your thread. I hope you're doing well.

The conversation here this last week has been emotional, informational, inspirational, and insightful. What I'm going to do, I can't tell you tonight -- because I don't know. I think I could do what many of you are suggesting, but the timing is off. Thanksgiving we're having out-of-town guests, then I'm gone Nov 29 - Dec 5. Then it's Christmas. I want to say something because if H says 'Yes, I want to work to recover our M,' it could be the best holidays in a long time. But if he says, 'I don't know,' or 'No,' it'd be the worst time to try to deal with that.

H and I got along this weekend, including SF at 3 this morning. There is still a distance but we're fine.

I will work on my fitness, respond in a correct way if he LBs, I will keep trying to meet his ENs, and stay away from my own LBs.

Thank you all.

God bless.

Hi L4, hope you are good.

Just a quick message to give you some encouragement. I have caught up with your thread and I have a great deal of admiration for you in the way you continue to use MB towards recovering your M.

In a selfish way, your thread and situation just re-inforces how lucky I am to have a BS that has truly engaged in a recovery and especially an MB recovery at that.

If only your DH could just try MB for a little while. I'm absolutely positive he would take a great deal from it and move him to a better place to be able to move forward. I truly hope he can get to that point asap for both him and you.

I don't have any real practical advice for you (you seem to be getting stacks of positive constructive help) other than to keep ploughing on. You're doing great. Despite the reasons you are here in the first place you can take some pride in how you are now fighting for your DH and M and I hope beyond hope that it all pays dividends in the long run.

BB

I have never posted on your thread before, and I hope it's okay. A little over three years ago, Ihad an A. It was wrong, it was awful, it was selfsh. Then, after D-Day, I broke NC twice - twice - once with a letter and once via internet. The second time my H packed his bags. These were the worst choices of my entire life.

And I repented.

There are some WW's out there who never rpent, never even apologize. I don't see how anyone could just NEVER seem to feel badly about what they have done. If I had not been repentant, I most likely would not be married now. Yes, there WW's out there who will ever only always care about themselves. But that isn't me, and I don't think that is you.

In reading what you post, I read that you are truly repentant, that you are willing to do whatever it takes to make amends for your A - that you have been for a year. You would like some sign that it makes a difference. You want to know that some day yor marriage will be a happy, romantic partnership in spite of it all. I can completely understand that.

After three years, I can say that my H is no longer bound by what did, and it is amazing. No, we are not perfect, but the A is not a noose around ou necks anymore. The first year was tough, the second was better. The second anniversary after my A we renewed our vows.

My H said forgiveness was a process He didn't just decide to forgive and all was well. He had to make that decision on a daily basis, sometimess hourly at first. Be he got there.

I don't know if that gives you any hope, but I woke up twice last night thinking about you, and I wanted to tell you that it sounds to me like you are working hard, and I hope things work out.

Sheesh...after reading all that, who has the aspirin?

BR: Care to elaborate?

Just that it's such a mess. Some of the issues in L4's M hit home for me but the shoe is on the other foot in that I'm the BS so I feel torn to give a proper response.

On one hand, I empathize with L4 that her H is likely the taker and that she probably feels nothing she does will ever be enough for him. The weight/PA is an ugly cycle even without an A in the mix and in many ways her H's attitude sucks. On the other hand. I can empathize with Mr. L4 given that he's the BS and all the cruddy feelings that go along with it.

Zelmo said women want sex from the A or else they go talk to another woman or a gay man....ummm, no. I agree that women can want sex just as much as men but still think that most WWs want the affection and attention moreso than WHs who want the sex (along with the affection and attention).

If what Dr. Harley says is true...that WW tend to be in exit As after being neglected by the H, I can somewhat understand. But knowing the gut wrenching feelings of being betrayed, I don't understand that either....so how that's?

I feel the same way and I don't know what to say. I've been on both sides of the fence and I just...I have no words. I don't know what to say about the situation. However, it seems as though L4 is really trying, but Mr.L4 has a not so great attitude about things. But, I can understand his feelings, to an extent. I know that it's different for men who are the BS than for women (in ways), so perhaps that's why I can't fully understand this attitude that he has.

I think I need to go back and read stuff...I have CRC (can't remember crap), but why isn't Mr. L4 on board with MB?

BR:

There is much good stuff that has been discussed here.

The discussion about women and sex is completely off topic from what L4 needs.

The discussion about PA and weight are on target, but just indicative of what L4 needs to be doing.

She needs to find away back into MrL4's heart, that is better than what they had before in the marraige. And MrL4 has to open up to that possibility, and if he doesn't then this marriage is doomed, whatever the reason given 1 year or ten years from now.

L4 appears to have changed, and changed ALOT. I can understand. I went through the same thing. I may have even traveled significantly further on that road, as I was starting from a place so much further behind.

My spouse has changed alot to. I hope that yours has, BR, and I hope that you have changed some too. I wish that the reasons for change were not an affair, but thats the hand that I, L4, and your WH dealt. And the cards that were left in the deck before the A started, do not mattter.

L4 is working on herself. I compliment her on that. I hope her Husband joins her. His pain may make it to difficult to do so. But that's his choice.

LG

I don't disagree with what you have said LG. Mr. L4 is hard to reach and no one can help someone who doesn't want to help himself. Given that he doesn't have the advantage of MB, he likely feels very alone. But it is still early...he may never get with a program to rebuild or he may want to but doesn't know how. I dunno...it all sucks...for Mr. L4 and for L4.

So, if I understand the attitude, L4's H has been the source of all pre-A problems, right? Someone characterized him as the taker in the relationship. and, most WWs resort to A's s the result of being neglected, right. And, they are only seeking the nobler things, like spirtual connection and emotional intimacy. They merely consent to sex in oreder to get these things.
How do we reconcile L4's husband being such a bad guy , with so many deficienies pre-A, with the fact that she has had two affairs on the guy? Think there might be some taker/problem causing issues emmanating from L4? Or, except for the fact that she cheated on the guy repeatedly was she all-giving and the perfect spouse?
For all we know, her husband is working his butt off trying to overcome this abuse.

No one said that Zelmo.

L4, my H was also very negative about me calling the Harleys.I called last year about this time. I told H that I understand his relectance, but I was at a crisis of how to move forward, I was running on empty, and this is something that I needed to do. I didn't ask him for his enthusiasm. Because I could not think of another way for me to keep coming back to my house with H in it every day. I got the boost and the insight I needed to keep coming home. I totally agree with POJA. But if I couldn't get myself to keep coming home, there wouldn't be much to POJA anymore.

Have you told your H that this is still a dificult process for you, and you need outside support? That a call with the Harleys gives you something you may never get with local MCs? That you can get a plan that will keep you going, instead of this plan you are on today, that gets more and more difficult to maintain? Where you keep giving more and getting back less? How about telling your H about this, so you can get a plan to target your effort, and plan routines that will sustain you for the long haul? Are you two getting in weekly one-on-one date nights, for example? That can make a big difference with the intimacy.

Hi L4,

Dust off and listen to us for just a minute, cowgirl.

I feel in all of this that you may have forgotten something...

IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT YOUR SPOUSE IS DOING OR NOT DOING...

THE QUESTION IS...

Are YOU doing what you are supposed to be doing?

When you are focused every minute of everyday on whether your actions and efforts are being supported and recognized it takes your attention away from DOING what you are supposed to be doing.

You take your focus off of your efforts and start watching your spouse for approval.

It makes EVERY MINUTE a judgement on whether your efforts are being effective or not.

Your H TOLD you he feels you do not value him as much as the FOM... and why.

WHY does what He is doing or NOT doing or his PAST less than stellar efforts in the marriage even come into the discussion?

YOU ARE TRYING TO GET HIM TO ENGAGE BACK INTO THE MARRIAGE, FOR HEAVENS SAKE, NOT TO ADMIT HE WAS A LESS THAN PERFECT HUSBAND!!!

FOCUS on what YOU are doing to alleviate what HE says is the problem.

THEN hold him responsible AFTER you have corrected what he says is wrong.

HE'S SAYING HE FEELS INFERIOR TO THE FOM.

DO YOU THINK YOUR CRITICISM OF HIM IN THE MARRIAGE IS HELPING HIM TO FEEL AS THOUGH HE IS MR.EVERYTHING TO YOU???

INFERIOR TO FOM!!!

INFERIOR TO FOM!!!

INFERIOR TO FOM!!!

That is all he hears in his mind...

The reason he hears it is because YOU have not FORGIVEN him...

The proof is in the laundry list of things you recite of his wrongs in the marriage.

You want him to forgive YOU?

YOU have got to forgive him also...

You ALL BY YOURSELF can give your H a BRAND NEW LIFE by forgiving him for his faults in the marriage both in the past and today.

Mrs.Flint and I took a long time to learn that...and that was the key to our success.

EACH DAY I TELL MYSELF THAT MRS.FLINT IS NOT THE PERSON THAT DID HORRIBLE THINGS TO ME AND MY FAMILY...

SHE TELLS ME SHE IS A NEW CREATION AND WILL NEVER HURT ME AGAIN...AND I BELIEVE HER.

SHE BELIEVES ME WHEN I TELL HER THE SAME.

AND THAT'S THE REASON IT WORKS...

WE BELIEVE IN EACH OTHER.

TRY BELIEVING IN YOUR H.

SEE WHAT HAPPENS IF YOU NEVER AGAIN THINK OR VOICE ANOTHER OF HIS SINS AND BELIEVE IN HIM.

IF YOU LIST HIS FAULTS HERE...

HE KNOWS OF THEM WHETHER HE READS HERE OR NOT...

BECAUSE HE SEES HIS INFERIORITY ON YOUR FACE EVERYDAY.

ADMIRE, RESPECT AND LUST AFTER HIM MORE THAN YOU DID THE OM AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU ACTUALLY FORGIVE HIM HIS PAST...AS YOU ARE ASKING HIM TO DO FOR YOU.

Gods love and blessings, Looking4.

Jim

Man, if the above poster can get past his wife's having sex with his brother, maybe he is on to something.

He is.

LG

L4

I have nothing to add to this lengthy discussion, except my ongoing care and affection for you.