I picture you jumping out of your chair with such excitement, yelling "Hurray!" as you carefully write.

My H wants me to agree with him too. Your conversation with J is similar to some I've had with my H.

What can be the solution in the above example where both want to watch different things at the same time? This is where I get stumped.

My H and I are not practicing POJA so perhaps this is too advanced for me, but it's something I wonder about. When it's a time-sensitive matter -- cannot be done at another time -- and it conflicts directly with the desires of the other person, what can be done?

OK, these are my thoughts on what this may be about because BB and I have similar issues. I'm going to re-write what you have said with a minor alteration and see where that gets us..


Do you think this may be what J means?

I'll tell you where BB and I are at and see if it resonates. BB has loads of wonderful qualities that I do not possess. We make a good team because I have qualities that he maybe doesn't possess. He is a clever man but educationally it would be said that I am cleverer. We were educated to different standards and sometimes this shows through. I am a voracious reader and have been politically active. He hardly ever read and has no interest in politics. (He reads more now because he is trying to meet my EN for conversation about things I am interested in)

I'm embarrassed to say that at times he has given me his opinion on something and I have rolled my eyes or dismissed him in some way because to me his opinion has been ill conceived or plain wrong. I didn't even realise I did it and I'm not saying that you are consciously disrespecting him, but is it possible that this is how he feels? There's only so many times that a person can have his opinions dismissed before they stop giving them and withdraw or become angry at the constant dismissals.

BB and I spoke quite a lot about this in the early days of our recovery because it was a big issue for us and I am working hard to show him respect when he shares with me, even when I think he is wrong. The great thing is that the more I actually listen to him and hear what he has to say, the more I value what he brings to the table, so we're managing to turn this issue around. I'll need to ask BB if he thinks things have improved as dramatically as I think they have, but I know that he appreciates the efforts I have made and I know that he shares more of his thoughts and opinions with me now because he feels safer to do so without feeling belittled.

Food for thought ST maybe?

I'm not sure on this one, we had something where neither of us wanted to watch what the other wanted to, so we chose something on a different channel - but that's not quite the same.

I don't know - if neither of you get what you want it's sort of fair, but there is still resentment.

Looks like Sere has some good thoughts for me, but those immediate things - i just don't know

Exactly what he means!

This would be me of old and I think he still expects me to do this - but I'm not - I'm really working hard to get him to say what he thinks.


I am very conscious of listening - and try to make sure I repeat what he is saying - both as a reminder to me to listen carefully and to let him know that I am. It is very hard to control facial expressions though - isn't it? But at the end of the day, I am listening and I am taking on board - I just disagree sometimes.

OK, I'll try harder (my face is just such a giveaway though - really hard to control) - I don't ignore his thoughts I just disagree.

I know it wasn't so long ago that I was complaining that if ever I go to him with an idea he finds endless problems and reasons why not. He is still trying to think of things positively, that is for sure.

But I just want him to say how he feels.

More gentle encouragement and patience

Thanks Sere

This can be the exact solution. But the solution also might be turn the thing off and take a walk together or go to the kitchen and work together on fixing dinner. The key is to not pick one or the other just to end the fight over who gets to have their way but to find a solution that both of you can agree enthusiastically to with no reservations, no holding back and nothing based on equal time for the future.

Our Giver wants us to make other people happy, all the time, in any way we can even if it means that we will be unhappy ourselves. So many of us were brought up to believe that this is the way we should live our own life in every instance for every situation for our entire life. It means we are not being selfish so it has powerful draw who were raised within a framework where unselfishness was stressed and where wanting to have something without sharing was labeled as being selfish.

Our Taker wants us to be happy even if it means that nobody else will be happy and nobody else will benefit from our happiness. Our Taker wants us to take care of ourselves first, foremost and above all else. It is a purely selfish position and really doesn't give a rat's behind what anyone else would like. It's the part we were told we were supposed to suppress when we were taught to use our Giver to share and be less selfish.

The balance between these two is pretty simple to arrive at, since both are required for us to live in this world of ours. If our Taker is eliminated, others will benefit and we will soon be bankrupt, financially, emotionally and spiritually. We will give away everything when our Giver runs the show, literally every single thing that we have.

Our Taker wants us to have whatever we think we want, so it too can go out of control and make us do really stupid stuff and end up hurting those around us, even people we don't know personally.

The balance is easy to achieve when dealing with almost everyone we meet since we think about what we are doing, way the benefits against the ramifications and test various outcomes before making a decision to give or take as our brain dictates might lead to some goal.

Except there is something else that intervenes when we have a romantic relationship with someone. That is the right side of our brain, which does not think at all but merely feels wants to be involved in the negotiations. Our feelings get in the way because they will choose either the Giver's side or the Taker's side without regard to what the data processing says we should do. The decisions are made based entirely on how we feel at the time. Thus, if we are happy to the point of being in a State of Intimacy, then our emotions tell our Giver to take charge and we will give away the farm to make our spouse happy and end up emotionally bankrupt as a result.

On the other hand, if we are unhappy or even slightly not quite so happy as before, our Taker is put in charge and we become purely selfish creatures who don't care anything at all about anyone else at all and only about getting our own way.

Neither the Taker nor the Giver are good and neither of them is bad. They are both good and bad depending on the situation. But both need to be controlled by the thinking part of our brain in order to prevent us from writing emotional checks our relationship can't cash or demanding our own way at our partner's expense.

The secret to POJA is learning to use the thinking part of our brains to make all decisions and stop relying on what we feel to pick a solution except that the goal is to pick the solution that makes both of you feel good about what was picked. It requires not just being OK with what happens but being happy that it happened in the end. It removes the regrets we often feel later and prevents us from becoming resentful over what our Giver has done when we gave away stuff before.

It isn't wrong to Give. It isn't wrong to Take. It is wrong to take or give based entirely on our current emotional state. Our Giver will always be sweet and nice, since nothing will be held sacred and anything is available for giving. Our Taker will always be demanding, angry when not getting our way, disrespectful and tend toward lying. These are all traits of our Taker that we have to override if we wish to find a solution that meets POJA.

BTW, if you are spending all your time in negotiations fighting off your Taker, you aren't in Intimacy. Intimacy always lets our Giver run the show.

The point is to stop making it give and take and start turning it into give and get. POJA agreement makes both Love Banks take a deposit and allows neither to pay the price. It makes you love each other more and prevents you from resenting what you might have given away or lost in the negotiation.

If I want red and my wife wants white, the compromise position would be pink. This would make BOTH of us unhappy and neither of us would be very enthusiastic about the solution. Therefore this does NOT follow POJA.

The mistake would be to draw a line in the sand and think that only red and white will make myself and her happy respectively. While pink might not work for either of us, perhaps blue, gray or chartreuse would work and by not allowing our emotional state to run the show, we can look for that answer instead of bowing to either position or falling into the trap of compromise which leads to both of us getting nothing we wanted or worse, something we did not want.

What I am saying is that when our emotions get involved we believe that there are two sides, yours and mine. In reality, there are choices that we can make and those choices do not all fall onto one side of the negotiations. Once you get used to doing this kind of thing you will find that you will begin to find that not only can you make each other happy by doing it, you can make yourself happy at the same time and in many cases you sill discover that the solution that you had to look hardest for turned out to be the very thing that needed to happen and either of the beginning positions would have spelled doom in the long run.

But it's like getting to Carnegie Hall. Practice, practice, practice...

The secret is to put both your Give and Taker on a short leash and stop either one of them from dominating negotiations. Make decisions with the left side and not the right.

Got ya!

Emotion not allowed where choices and decisions are involved. For now I can deal with that. And understand it. I'll let J know and we'll see if we can come up with and exceptions to the rule.

...if we can actually manage to do that in the first place...

Do you know what - I think we're back in recovery

We won't be if I don't go to bed NOW

Re TV example... we would watch the game which is current and record the movie to watch together another day.

Actually not true, what would happen is Flick would watch the game (motorsports in reality) and I would sit beside him on the couch and read something so we could talk from time to time while the movie is being recorded.

I'm not going to look back but I didn't think originally I mentioned a discussion about what was on telly - did Mark offer that as an example or did I mention it?

Anyway, that night that I did post there was a telly thing as I have mentioned since - thing is the thing that J wanted to watch was Harry Hill - comedy - and I am really buggedd by scripted comedy - it irritates me - stress levels rise- In the end it didn't matter to me what we watched as long as it wasn't HH - yes there was something I wanted to watch but not as much as I didn't want to watch what J wanted to watch.

We don't have recording facilities here.

ha - stopped you getting your run at athe top lil

So pleased for you ST.

Hope to get back here later today, but I gotta stop for now.
I will catch up!

I can see the last post from Sere as I type this and it looks so goooood !!!
A big YAY for recovery!

In my attempt to do catch up I've been reading your posts on other threads ...I miss you too, you are so damn cute, I love ya.

Nice to see you Vit



Ok then, now I have been slacking a bit. I haven't been workig on me and I have been coasting along and enjoying what is going on around me.

STs action plan for the week:

Get that Boundaries book back open and continue where I left off

Challenge myself to snog J once a day


Have been doing lots of reading on here and I am being inspired - I am not currently putting in the effort I should be. Fortunately thus far there has been no back slide.


We did have a little chat on the old SF lastnight- I tried to say that although I did find it hard I was open to persuasion - once I say no though it means no. See, I want to do it, I just come over all frozen sometimes if things aren't quite right.

I did offer phone sex, J not so keen (deleted rest of paragraph: TMI)

Didn't get that job and there is nothing around here unless you're into financial services.

Oh well - someone must have my time planned out for something else!

okay, caught up!

It does sound like the two of you are making headway. Slow but sure and that's just the way it goes doesn't it.
No AO's from J ...... This really is great, he's doing well.

It doesn't matter how much I read about POJA, and Mark you explain it very well, I'm not sure if H and I have a good grip on it either.
H and I tend to negotiate more often than not.
It does take practice, but we do have it in our heads that whatever we decide,
we both must be satisfied with the outcome. And yes, RH is a must, in a respectful way of course.

I'm sorry to hear that you didn't get the job ST. Have you ever considered private tutoring?
I took my son, then 13, to a tutor for math and english. We went to her house for an hour and she charged $40.

I'm still baffled as to how airing out the hot water cupboard is fun, unless you can both fit in there and close the door.

And a hoover is a vaccuum Lil ! It's also a wrap around uniform or maybe that was the brand.
I wore them years ago to work. They were horrible things. I remember doing CPR, (and we did it quite a bit) and always worrying
about how far the slit down the front was apart. The person across the way usually got a eye full of thigh.

Happy snoggin' ST.

This.

Is.

So.

Cool!

I too am sorry you didn't get the job. What do you think about V's idea of private tutoring?

And good job opening up about the SF -- talking about it and trying different things. I know it's out of your comfort zone and I'm proud of you for trying to address is.

Take care, Sunshine.

Just thigh Vit?

I have thought about tutoring but never acted on it - actually that's a lie, my neighbour was paying me to tutor her 8 year olds maths last year but then their dad lost his job. That was good because it was a flexible arrangement - I did it when it suited both of us around J's shifts.

It was my singing that let me down - I asked for feedback. I knew it was - I kept forgetting to - doh! The person they employed is a professionally trained singer.

I'm refelcting on something today and I can't work out whether I boobed or whether J was being unreasonable.

THings had been fine - we were alone this morning and going shopping and I had a realisation last night which hadn't crossed my mind for a while. That realisation being that one of my top ENs is admiration or reassurance/encouragement and I decided to share that with him this morning. His reaction:

" yeah, well it's mine too"

I was bugged by his reaction so I told him so which made him mad.

I didn't ask him what he was going to do about meeting my needs, it was purely me sharing something form inside me.

The conversation went from bad to worse and ended with me getting out of the car and walking away because I was on the end of insults ( I have to say though, it was me who lost my temper).

I'd love to be able to have a conversation about me without it turning into one about him.

Even after this I did manage to get my snog in for the day - althoug it waon his neck becasue he didn't want to share my sore throat, so we did make up but didn't resolve.

What do you lot think?

I'd better email him.

I think many of us can be hyper-sensitive to perceived criticism, especially when we feel under pressure and/or are making very great efforts which we believe are not being recognised. (I'm not saying that you are not appreciating his efforts ST)

It looks as though J may have taken your comments as thinly veiled criticisms of what he is not doing for you. I understand J's sensitivities. I have to check myself to make sure I am not over sensitive when BB is sharing his thoughts and feelings with me.

I think, whilst you are still early in your new recovery, I would be careful about the timing of your discussions.

Maybe it would have been better to wait for him to say something positive or show you a little admiration and then say how much you love it when he says such things, how much it adds to your love bank and how you look forward to his words of affirmation.

You get your point across and he doesn't feel criticised. Win-Win.

Sorry about the job ST, but not getting it does allow you to keep your focus on J and your M.

Lots of love to ya xx

Thanks Sere

As you know, not quite what I wanted to hear, but it certainly was how he saw it.

I agree though, your way is definitely better, I'll just wait for the opportunity.

He didn't reply to my email but he was very friendly and chilled this morning ( despite the fact that I wasn't up when he got in form work), so I guess I got my email right.

Been a funny day today - could be hormones , could be tiredness, DS had me up in the night and then I couldn't get back to sleep, anxious about his health and with a irritating sore throat.

I seem to have a touch of paranoia: about work largely - my job share is sil to admin officer and she keeps getting loads of OT and I don't get offered. There is also rumoured to be extra hours going but I'm not brave enough to ask - which is ridiculous for someone as confident as I usually am.

J had said he was going to go to Neals Yard to get a remedy for shift working - they made him a good one when he had post-natal depression, I did it today because I was thinking about things he might like for his b'day and xmas and trying to recall things he had been talking about. I am now really regretting it incase he thinks I'm taking over - but that is so not how I intended it.

Right let's think about tea.

Just to make myself clear ST. I don't think you did anything wrong. I think you have every right to express your thoughts without J going off the deep end. That said, I really do think it is quite normal at your (you and J) delicate stage in recovery for J to be hyper-sensitive to perceived criticism. I think this is when you have to think through what you say, how you say it and when you say it to ensure that you two are buidling your communication in a positive way. J also needs to work on his sensitiveness, as do I.

We're all working on our own issues and that is a part of recovery. All these things that come up and are resolved are little steps in the right direction. It's all good stuff ST.


You are getting much more right than you are getting wrong ST. BB and I do things wrong all the time but neither of us have anger issues so it is often much easier for us to sort them out. I think you're doing great.


That doesn't sound too good ST. Maybe you should get it checked out with the Dr.

I'm with you on the DS sleep thing too and also the paranoia about his health. Every little sneeze or raised temperature sends me into a mini frenzy of swine flu frights.


Nepotism. It'll never go away. Be brave and ask for the extra hours. What's the worst that can happen?


J had PND. I didn't know men got it too.

Hope you had a nice tea ST. We've just had pork steaks with a mustard sauce, new potatoes with carrotts, brocolli, cauliflower and our first sprouts of the season. It was yummy. Not sure the kids were over impressed with all the veg, but I loved it.

xx

I had never heard of men getting PND. It would explain so much...

Sorry to hear you didnt get the job ST. As far as recovery goes I agree with Sere, you seem to be getting more right than wrong, J too for that matter. I think your both doing great

My Health Visitor was very good and she put me on to Neals Yard

PND for dads

They reckon 1 in 25 men suffers depression after the birth of a child.

I see in this article about multiple stresses at birth triggering it - our house move and change of job Iguess contributing - I also note that it talks of hostile reactions - very intersting!!


I very much got my trip to Neals yard right , he was really pleased that I'd been, which was a relief (insert phew! icon) and he really liked the email I sent too.

We have teh afternoon to ourselves tomorrow - I wonder what we'll do - start the decorating in the kid's rooms? Xmas shopping and sorting? Who knows, see what he reckons later.

Thank you for the support and ncouragement you lot

xx