I was exWW's first, she was my second. It was very safe to say we were both inexpereinced. We had SF prior to getting engaged. While we didn't wait until we were married, we learned together. It was this learning about how each of us responded as one which made it special and was one of the things lost in the betrayal. We were patient, we experiemented, somtimes things worked, sometimes things were awkward. But, at the end of the day, there was never that competition for intimacy nor the thoughts in the back of our minds about how we compared to others.

I would like to point out that I am not joining Dude in seeing modern marriage, and hence adultery, as not that big a deal. I am trying to show that I see what a big deal it is now, and I did not even on the day I got married.

I think modern sexual behaviour has devalued marriage. Well, that is okay if you follow your principals through logically. My single parent-friend has greater integrity than I. She states clearly that she does not believe in marriage. She is not religious, and she also does not believe that the state should legitimise our sexual behaviour. She is not prepared to seek either state or social acceptance of her own behaviour. When she lived with someone it was because she wanted to, and when he did not want to any more, she accepted that. There was no need for moral judgement about his leaving.

The sorrow for me is that I feel I set the conditions for my betrayal by living as I did before marriage. I have changed now, but there is no expectation that my H should. Why should he?

I do think adultery is a tragedy. I wouldn't joke about it, as Dude does.

You pretty much had the REAL DEAL my friend. It is that simple..DUDE

Its a tragedy, no doubt, BUT if you had relations before your M and your spouse did as well, its not NEARLY as bad as if you had both been pure and saved yourselves. As I said, you and I had an agreement that was broken. The REAL DEAL marriage where you have only slept w/ your spouse is totally different. It just is...DUDE

How so?

Do you not think your marriage would have meant more if you and your spouse had NEVER been w/ anyone else pre-marriage? I mean, even I can see how much more meaningful the act of sex would be and hence the marriage in that respect...DUDE

Let me put it to you this way, Dude. The OM, in my case, had never slept with anyone other than his wife and neither had she. Apparently, that didn't make any difference to him. And yeah, I believe him. Why would a guy lie about being a virgin in his 20's? He was a true nerd in high school/college - I've seen the pictures. He never even had a serious relationship before he met his wife.

BUT...wouldn't it be wonderful if both and your spouse were to both MAKE your marriage MORE meaningful TODAY...NOW and going forward. The "risk" doesn't have to be acceptable.

I've had many discussion with Bob Pure about recovery. He and his wife WERE virgins at marriage and, thus, we don't relate. I'm in your boat as far as an easier recovery. It IS easier for us serial fornicators. Heck, Mrs. W's affair was with a former high school and college boyfriend. He's already been with her LONG before me. I, too, am relieved it was her that went first as I am much more engineered to cope/overcome this stuff than Mrs. W. However, the disconnect I see is that you are glorifying it. Passing off the sin or whatever as an ACCEPTIBLE condition in your thinking (and your wife's for that matter) moving forward.

Just because that's the way it WAS doesn't excuse/mitigate the way IT SHOULD BE or WAS MEANT TO BE going forward.

Repentence, true repentence (by both parties) means a change of heart.

Not mere acceptance and "by-gones".

You seem so close. Don't you WANT a truly intimate extraordinary relationship of mutual trust and care with your wife?

How can you dismiss it as a NEGATIVE condition of recovery from really ANY trauma?

I actually FEEL like I'm truly LIVING for the first time in my life. My "happiness" is not illusory, yet, I see so many things MORE black and white than I used to. There's way to much ME ME ME in the gray areas.

Mr. Wondering

SIDEBAR: Why would you want to be w/ a nerd? Or did he leave nerdville and become cool guy? DUDE

I actually feel just like you and agree whole heartedly. Maybe I said somethings wrong, but I agree w/ your entire post and feel the same way??!! I NEVER said ACCEPTABLE. She broke the promise(vows) she made. Don't remember calling that ACCEPTABLE nor my RA. I think you reading into my posts like others. Outside of you misinterpretation of what I've said, I TOTALLY AGREE w/ your entire post. Maybe we are at the same stage although you seem a little more religious than I. I just took a longer(rockier) road to get here..DUDE

Nah.

Do you not think your marriage would have meant more if you and your spouse had NEVER been w/ anyone else pre-marriage? I mean, even I can see how much more meaningful the act of sex would be and hence the marriage in that respect...DUDE [/quote]
Nah. [/quote]

Are you church of Scientology? Certainly you aren't Christian w/ this mindset?

As someone who was a virgin and married a virgin, I can say that for my H the fact that we were only each other's until I betrayed him was a HUGE deal. And once I truly saw it, it was for me too. I spent those 26 years saying no no matter how hard it was (and it was hard) only to cheat on my H??? That being said, I don't know that there are degrees of adultery or degrees of marriage. If true repentance and a true change of heart makes us new, then I believe marriage is pure.

Of course, I am just changing back with this idea. I was an "absolutist" before my descent into waywardness, and I am pretty much one now. For me, the only time I wasn't was when absolutes weren't conducive to what I was doing.

Because left to your own judgement and not following codified LAW, your boundaries faltered and you fell from grace. You can't trust yourself, so like a rubber band, you snap back to an absolutisit because you couldn't manage anything else. You have to color inside the lines. DUDE

Nah. [/quote]

Are you church of Scientology? Certainly you aren't Christian w/ this mindset? [/quote]

My man, I come from the Church with the direct line of descent from JC, along with the Spanish Inqusition, The Crusades and a host of other abuses( I was an altar boy "et cum spiritu tuo"). What bible are you beating?

If you knew me, you would know that coloring inside the lines makes me laugh. Even my H says I don't fit any mold (and it ain't cause I'm too fat - ha!). Actually, I believed the whole of the Bible...then I ignored the Bible so I could sin wihtout having to think too much...then I repented and picked up the Bible again, so to speak. I don't believe absolutes that have no Biblical basis - i.e. one drink is a mortal sin. But the Bible is fairly clear about sexual purity, so that I do believe. I also believe what God's word says about repentance, forgiveness, and being made new. Thankfully, so does my husband.

I suspect your BH doesn't agree w/ this statement. I don't see how your marriage is ever PURE, you might repair it, but PURE is a slight stretch..DUDE

So I can always "blow it" drop the bible, pick it up when I'm done sinning(assuming I don't croak) and all is well and new as long as I repent then. Like it never happened.(NEW) WOW, no wonder this religion is so popular. DUDE

You could be right on the pure thing. Nothing will erase the reality of what I did, and neither of us will ever forget it. I think I just meant "restored." I do know that when he looks at me, he doesn't just see a cheater - that he has said. But I know he has to see it sometimes because I see it, and I am not the one who was betrayed.

Agreed. DUDE