Thanks Princess,

I do understand what you are saying and at the risk of blowing my own trumpte i am constaintly helping my friends get through things, and my phone is always going off with them asking for advice etc right now one of my close friends is 32 weeks pregnant and the baby she is carrying will die at birth as has no kidneys and underdeveloping lungs, I am with her when she goes to the scans and try to explain to her whats going on as she isnt very medically inclined and still in shock mode, I went to the funeral directors and helped her pick out baby coffins, it was hard i wanted to run a mile and cry for ever but i was able to stand by her and put my feelings aside. I am dreading that in a few weeks ill be attending yet another childs funeral but its not about me its about helping her and thats all i have ever wanted to do is help people, so i dont understand why when this happened to me there is no one in sight to help me, to hold my hand. All my friends have disappeared, unless ofcourse they need some advice or help with childcare then im once again there for them. I have so much love to give anyone who cares about me but there seem to be so few that do. I am so scared to see that the world is filling with selfish people who only see themselves. I feel invisible.

I want to turn the negative into a positive, i want the A to become almost a good thing in the end, the thing that made our marriage strong, the thing that brings us closer. Thats the best outcome ever and i want it soo much, I want the wisdom that can come out of this situation so we can hopefully help our kids one day should they land themselves in a similar unfortunate mess.

As far as God goes there isnt a day that i drive past a church and dont want to go in, but I feel so unworthy of his care, I was so angry at him when DS was ill because i saw other children in the hospital not make it and i just didnt understand how the God i loved would allow such horrors to happen. He was present with me every step when DS was ill because he has been a miracle child, one day im sitting ther in the scan department being told the baby should be terminated becaus of severe heart issues, i pray with the pastor of my church, the next thing the baby is born with minor heart issue, if that wasnt God helping i dont know what is. So i know i really know how good and powerful he can be but dont understand how the bad things get past him. I heard a sermon called "blessed is he who is not offended in me" it was so good but i dont know how not to be offended. Im not angry at God for the things i have been through because I dont see them as that bad as i dont know anything else people are baffled when i say "my mother shot my father" with a stright normal face, im just used to that fact and have dealt with it. I also want my children to know God and to be part of a church, i got so much safety and love when i was part of a church as a teenager i so want them to have that.

I think that Mark could help you out here. He is so wise in his theology. My heart goes out to you and I understand where you are coming from. You whould try getting ahold of 'The Case for Christ' and 'The Case for Faith' by Lee Strobel. He has a very unique way of explaining things.

I only know that the things we endure make us stronger. I also sometimes wonder, as in the case of children or babies who don't survive illnesses, if it is God's way of ending the suffering. It is hard for us on earth to understand, especially when the pain is so great, but knowing they are in heaven with our Lord should provide us some comfort.

Everyone has one subject they cant handle and mine is kids/babies not surviving, it really really drives me to tears. I can handle adults passing, i can handle pets passing i can handle war crimes, i can handle poverty videos and almost anything (A excluded obviously) but babies, thats just my sore spot.
I dont like abortions either but dont push my views on those who have them its just something i hate to think about. So anything to do with new life and kids just hits my heart. I still want to become a paramedic and the way i have prepared myself for cot death etc is to try and concentrate on helping the parents on the worse day of their lives because that little soul is with God and in the best hands, so i see what you are referring to Clay.

Here is a quick update on M

Things are ok, chat to Steve has given us both alot to work with, WS is was really down today (my normal respose would be get your head out of your backside what have you got to be down about) but as of Steves advice I listened to WS tell me what was wrong (feeling low about work, his appearace and the fact that he is so thin), we were both due to go gym together but he was too low to go so instead of leaving him at home alone to get even more miserable I encouraged him to come to the gym with me, and when we were at the gym i made an effort to give him cuddles inbetween excersise sets. On a huge uplifting note for me got weighed at the gym and i have lost 18lb so far in 8 weeks, i have 20 lbs to go before i reach the ideal weight for my height so nearly half way. Feeling proud that I am doing it gradually and it feels like this is the first thing i have been patient with for a while.
I asked WS to just keep me updated on his plans for the week so i dont end up messing anything up by double booking things, he sees now that having a plan is a way for me to be more patient, for example if he says i plan to do something nice with you in two week i dont care about how long its going to take just like to know whats happening it stops me from being on edge.
I did ask Steve about posting on MB and he has advised to carry on however gave WS stern talking to about reading my threads. i genuinley dont read WS threads because as long as he keeps me updated and keeps the lines of communications open i dont feel the need to. All i ask you guys is not to refer to either of our posts on eather of our threads to help us keep this pact.

Hi BH! Who is your WH?

yllanoitomE is his MB ID (its supposed to be Emotionally spelled backwards)

Good day, making progress that I am comfortable and relaxed. WH (or should i start referting to him as FWH?) worked on a plan for the week while i was at work, he told me what he was planning to do everyday and this included two days off from working on A in order for us to just get back to normal and have a break catch up on TV and do Xmas shopping.

WH has week off from work (booked holiday last year to allow for xmas shopping) so feel realxed and at ease that this week we can both relax together so when working on M it wont be such a rush between jobs and kids. The plan he gave me for the week was great and even if he does not manage to follow the plan due to unforseen circumstances (that constantly happen in our lives) i am still alot more relaxed knowing whats going to happen over the next week i feel that i am not putting my faith in him blindly. Dont get me wrong he didnt tell me what he was going to do step by step he just gave me outline of next week (for example saturday is day for us etc, not said what we are doing).

The letting him know he is attractive to me when he gets it right task is going well too. He is getting more confident with actions and i am genuinley happy to see him happy with what he is doing rather than doubt himself.

Only little downside of today is that i am finding myself slightly irritated by something Steve said, when i asked Steve about how do i cope with the knowledge that WS (by his own words) never thought about me once during A or while he was with OW Steves reply was simple and straightforwars, WS did think about me because he was making effort to hide A from me. Yeah it does make sense but i cant figure out if i am annoyed by this revalation because its so simple and straighforward that i am irritated with myself for wasting so much time on being hurt angry and generally baffled by WS lack of thought or is it just that it doesent sit right with me because its not the point i was trying to make (Why did WS not feel guilt during A and if he is able to block guilt so well then whats my security of him not repeating A). Still pondering that one. Any insight??

Dear BH

Of course he felt guilt! He hid the affair didn't he? Went out of his way to cover his tracks did'nt he? From my experience with my WH, he was so caught up in his A, the "high", the excitment, the "newness" of the whole sordid thing, "the fix" that everything else, every moral code, fiber of their being is pushed aside, they don't even allow themselves to entertain their guilt. Of course that is only my opinion, me being a BS may not be the one to answer this question. Maybe a few of the WS on this site could chime in.

I am so glad to hear that things have taken steps forward, the reference to you WH as FWH made me smile. I am so glad to see the hopefullness in your post. Maybe mine is on it's way!

Some random thoughts, to take or leave:

Bravo! When TWC & I were early post D-Day, it seemed that the A. dominated all of our interactions, conversations & thoughts. It had to be done, but we both hated it. It involves rehashing lots of pain & guilt, and it's no fun, and if you allow it to consume too-large a chunk of your relational time together, then that time can become something to dread. While there's a need to be retrospective, to do your best to understand what happened to the both of you in your pre-A. relationship & communication that abetted the A., and for your H to understand how he shifted his boundaries to condone his A. as he got into it & continued it, there comes a point when you're burning too much mental fuel on looking back, and so you both need to make sure to devote an increasing amount of your time together & mental energy toward the prospective wotk of meeting each others' ENs. So I think it's salutary for you both to take some time off from analyzing the A., and keep up with the prospective business of R.

Cheaters are masters of compartmentalization, some of it chemically-enhanced. I wasn't raised in the jungle; I'd had a sound upbringing, a strong moral compass, and had always held the view that adultery was unambiguously wrong. It's not the case that I felt no guilt. BUT I had discovered this OW, who was suddenly interested & attentive to me & giving me affirmations small & large, and with all of this I experienced the infatuating thrill of being pursued, which I hadn't really felt in two decades, and it was a huge rush, in the truest sense of an addiction. (Research has actually shown that affairs, and infatuations more broadly, act chemically on the brain in the same way as cocaine.) Now, a coke addict isn't always high ... he has moments of lucidity; but he also has moments when he's feeling cravings for a fix, and that fix crowds out all else in his mind. And so it was: I had my lucid moments where I was fully aware of my wife, and how I was deceiving her & dishonoring my promises to her, and at those moments I was wracked with guilt, and feeling that I had to find some way to end the A. soon. But then I'd find a voice-mail from OW on my cellphone, or I'd see her in church, and the cravings would take over again, and I chose to fill the cravings. Thus, I was able to set aside my sense of guilt & my conscience, because it stood between me and the fix I was craving ... not merely the SF, but the conversation, the compliments, the hanging-on-my-every-word attention that I was getting from OW during the time we spent together. So, I wouldn't be too sure that your H felt no guilt. More likely, he was compartmentalizing it away, and not allowing the guilt to stand in his way of getting his fix of OW.

As to your question of how you can have any sense of security that he won't repeat his A with the same or a different OW, it's a huge question for any BS. My wife and I were discussing this very question the other night, and the scary truth is, there is no guarantee, there is no perfect assurance. A junkie who has graduated from rehab CAN go back on drugs, and a recovering alcoholic CAN fall off the wagon and start drinking again. And I know that if I don't mind my boundaries, I am capable of cheating again. It's an area where my wife still needs reassurance from me. However, one thing in our favor is that the addiction has been broken. The cravings aren't there any longer. If I wanted to get into an affair, I'd have to do it "from scratch", as it were. And another thing in our favor is that we are more congnizant of each others' ENs. For instance, my wife does little things from time to time to make me feel as though she's pursuing me. I thus get attention & affirmation from her, and get needs met, in ways that weren't happening much before my A. And I'd like to think I'm similarly more attentive to her needs as well. Another thing in our favor is that she's aware of things I did during my affair to conceal it, for example, how I fooled her about how I was spending my time; and so it's less likely that I could get off-track in such a way that she'd be as easily fooled again. And there's NC between me and my ex-OW. None of this is a guarantee, but it helps gradually to restore some of the trust that I'd squandered.

I think the fight scared both of us out of our stupid state of tag a war. I dont condone the fight but it just once you explode like that you seem to get a grace period before things build up again, I am truly hoping that the way i feel now is permanent and that the build up wont start again. I think ill keep calling WH as WH until he leaves job and NC is in place, thats only fair, then ill refer to him as FWH because then we will be able to start true recovery. Glad to see you agree with Steve and i figure that my irritation at myself for not seeing such a simple equasion.

How are you doing??

Glove Oil and here in your answer i find myself confused again.
I do understand the compartmentalizing, i really get the whole exitement, something new and feeling wanted. What i dont understand is clarly highlighted by this section in your post


WH has repeatedly stated he never had any of those moments of guilt or lucidity, even when I nearly discoverd A one day by looking at his phone (he took it away said it was crashing and managed to delete texts from OW, he laughs at how close i got to discovery not talks about lucid moment however brief when realsation hits of exsistance of wife and kids and consequences of A, I find his repeated statments to the effect that he never thought about me or kids while in A really worrying. I can live with " you flashed through my mind for a sec but i was so fogged i didnt take notice, or i was so far into A that i excused my behavior etc" but i cant take i never once considered you or the kids. I self soothed out of this insecurity by thinking that it wasnt because he didnt love me because he loves his kids and never considered them either, so i did try to analize his actions and try to be understanding and help myself but there is this voice at the back of my head that keeps referring to the fact that he admits that he felt no guilt, never not even for one second.

I think also at this point i need to confess something about myself, I was a constaint cheater before i met WH, before him i had many relationships and not once did i stay faithful so i do understand the POV of WS i really do but however insignifacant the relationship i was involved in when i had my cheating episodes i always felt guilt. Yes admittedly it didnt stop me from carrying on cheating on the next relationship but non the less i felt guilt.

As far as my sense of securty i thing by reading Pilots thread it seems that it has to be a joint responsibility between me and WS. He has come so far in the past few weeks from understanding why he had A to owing actions in A and most significant setting his own personal boundries to avoid future A's. they all go a long long way to achieve security, i have to do some personal healing in order to gain confidence that I cannot control what happens in WS brain, he has a brain all of his own and i cant assume he thinks the same way i do.

I was scared at the beginning of this process because it was my last ditch attempt at saving M, and was scared of it being a false temporary improvement or even fake emprovement from WS in order to shut me up for a couple of weeks but with time i have come to see that he is committing to this and that makes me feel more at ease and patient therefore i am now happy to have days off from working on M and just do things that we both enjoy like christmas shopping for kids, we both get exited at what their face will look like when they open presents, we walk around the shops holding hands and just being soppy in eachothers presence this has always happened, before during and after A so im looking forward to that this week.

Ps also forgot to say that WS was shocked by A as much as i was because he has been brought up with good values and never once did he see himself capable of A. Now he has finally realised he is capable of A (regardless of the excuses he made for himself before owned list) he is finally on a straight road to avoid this happening again. He was in denial that he is capable of A now he has ralised he is and therefore working hard towards secure future.

Well... as I think about it, does it really even matter now that your H says he felt no guilt during his A.? Does it matter that I did feel guilt during mine? Because either way, we both still had As. My intermittent sense of guilt then, such as it was then, wasn't enough to improve my lousy conduct, so I don't think I should get much credit for that guilt. (Remember, I didn't break off my A until my OW got snooped-out by her H.) Is there any BS who'd feel significantly better to hear her WH say "Well, gee, honey, on the bright side, I felt really guilty on the days in-between, when I wasn't sneaking off behind your back to see OW for coffee or a relaxing screw" ? I think perhaps not!

So I think it might be more important to ask yourself, does your H feel guilt now? There's no way he can go back and re-do his feelings or actions of a year ago, to ever make them right or honorable. How he feels & acts today may matter more.

Very valid points GloveOil, i guess i am just trying to undertand and drown out the niggly thoughts in my brain so i can process and file them away. I have had such a rough time i guess i get scared to let myself get happy about something and his recovery right now although is genuine it still strikes me as too good to be true on the bad days. I am really putting in some effort now i really am. when i started MB i was set on sitting on my backside and making WS do ALL the work for a change but as you have seen i didnt manage that for too long (ie saying getting a new job has to be his sole responsibility and i wont help him one bit then calling my friend JJ and arranging for her to pitch her job as a possiblity etc) I found that i wanted to help despite trying to talk myseld into the opposite attitude. Now with you guys and Steves councelling i feel that i can allow myself to help WS work on M and do my part in it, it feels more natural to me and i feel better for it.

Hey everyone, i have been advised that sexymamabear is a good source of help and advise in my situation so im putting a shout out for her to read my thread and tell me help if she can.

If you know of sexymamabear please let her know I am seeking her advise. thanks

BH....change your thread title calling for her. Just hit the "notify" button at the bottom and tell the MODS you want to change it to "Calling SMB.....I could use your advice" or whatever you want it to say......this method works wonders on when you need help ASAP....

not2fun

That was some GREAT stuff GO. Even for ME to read....very good questions and points....


BH,

Have you ever heard of the "Five Stages of Grieving"?.....
Here's the link....

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=34&t=002494

There are five stages of grieving (and yes, these stages apply to anyone who has been through a tramatic experience, not just death....). Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, Acceptance. You will facilitate back and forth between the middle one's till you get to acceptance. You are in this process on many points of the A. Which is GOOD that you are doing this. It is also good that you are asking questions that arise in you until you get the ANSWERS you seek. Sometimes, though, there is no good answer, no "right" answer", no "acceptable" answer, which is sometimes the only answer to ACCEPT.

Truthfully, I understand how it concerns you that he didn't feel any guilt. I also understand how its hard to ACCEPT that he wasn't thinking of you. I struggled with the same thing. The only thing I can tell you what worked for me is that he NOW does think of me and what his actions may or not do to me.....and its taking a LONG time to get there. Heck, we are STILL working on that.

I also see you seem to have "shifted" in your thinking. This is AWESOME!!!!!!....

I am very proud of you missy.......

While I know it sucks about the possibility of losing the job, but it could turn into a blessing.....by that I mean, his not working with OW any more, which has been the BIGGEST obstacle you have been faced with at this point. It feeds into your fears, insecurities, anger, ect. and who could blame you?....Certainly not me....

Anyway, keep up with your counseling, doing each and every thi ng Steve assigns you, and before you know it things will fall into place.

not2fun

ps....I about died at the image I was getting of you trying to "talk Steve around" about that Christmas party........

was that some "wishful" thinking on your part that he would agree with you??.... .....you crack me up....

Not2fun
thanks for the laughs yep I honestly thought i could get Steve to agree to the party but the man is BRUTAL lol, I tryed every excuse under the sun only to be told i would go to show off lol I dont like to think of myself as showing off so Xmas party may well be off the cards ,

Steve is a man of few words but when he says something it hits the target.

the way he explains things reminds me of a joke I read somewhere that says the only reason men and woment dont understand eachother is because women cant accept how simple and uncomplicated mens thinking process is. I overcomplicate Steve simplyfies. It really annoys me but its also very effective


Job wise WS has week off as holiday booked a year ago so investigations into the gate are prostponed until december this means he will get christmas paycheck (wich include large xmas bonus) and gives time for the new job to come along so all is looking better now. Worse case scenario no january paycheck but by then this wont effect childrens xmas so it feels less urgent/tragic.

Attitude wise realised that being a beast wasnt getting me anywhere this way i feel more natural and not going against myself at the end of the day i do love WS so why was i fighting that so hard. Now he is commiting to MB i feel safe and relaxed this attempt at R is not temporary and has good chance of success.

Yep,,,,UNDERSTATEMENT of the year!!!..It is very hard to give this one up....(I STILL struggle with this one...... )


as if you don't have enough to deal with without having to "fight" yourself.....(and that would be your Giver and Taker duking it out....)


indeed!!!!!!


not2fun

Arghhh infuriating day, went to work and got home to WS having a friend over. We had plans for today and now ruined just cause WS couldnt say NO to friend when he phoned saying he wanted to come over, This guy is sweet but a drinker and basically just comes over to chill while i run around making dinner, bathing kids etc. I do like this WS friend but right now we need some space and family time, i have clearly told my friends i am not available this week so put a stop to "Help me phonecalls" it was hard because I am always there for my friends but right now the family unit is my priority.

Had an argument because some guy at work asked for my number, in the spirit of honesty i called WS and told him about it immediately. He wasnt happy i didnt verbally attack this guy for asking for my number. Here is what happened, ill leave you lot to disect the situation.

R is a mexican guy who works in the kitchen, he has a long time partner and has always been easy to talk to in a workplace full of kids and bitchy women. I dont find him at all attractive and i take whatever he says with a pinch of salt, he is aware of A as everyone at work knows from the amount of times i have walked in there red eyed from a sleepless night crying my eyes out over A. The only time that has ever been any phisical contact was when i literally fell flat on my face due to wet floor and he helped me up even then I recoiled from him very quickly.
Every customer that oversteps the mark gets my wedding ring shoved in his face with "thanks but im happily married" comment. And i do get asked out on dates weekly by customers yet I have never even been tempted to go there.
R as i will call him has been making comments about my weight loss for weeks and we discuss his excercise regime and the gym rutine we both do (at separate gyms) he is into cross country running and I told him about a secluded wood that was local and very nice to run in, he asked for my number in the contest taht i would show him these woods so he can go running there for a change (not with me on his own as i dont run there). I told him i didnt feel comfortable giving him my number but i would point out to him where these woods were one day after work. He then did try again to get to me by saying that he has seen my WS in the restaurant and asked if he was rich, i said no why, he said because he couldnt understand what i was doing with someone so unatractive etc. I put him in his place and told him that i find my WS very attractive and dont care how others see him. What else should i have said or done?? I told WS straight away about this conversation, i also told him about the new indian manager who has started at the store who wont leave me the hell alone. I do put him in his place on a regular basis and snap at him tell him to go away etc he sees that as a challenge. I wear a uniform at work, i rarely put make up on at work because i end up running around so much i sweat it off. This behaviour from the opposite sex towards me is also new territory, im not used to men leering. R is silly and has been there for me on days where work was just a mad house or on days i was a wreck, like when i was showing a fellow colleague the picture of OW and he walked in and said "gees i would rather masturbate than go near that thing" now he didnt know whos picture it was and once i explained he was in shock making statements like "If i had you on my arm i would feel so lucky how could your H do that to you". Yes allarm bells went off in my head too but i was so desperate for an independant opinion on this OW at the time R hit my weak spot that i was so happy with his opinion i didnt have the chance to get mad at him etc. WS is aware of all these conversation as I tell him everything. WS also makes comments like (this particular one was yesterdays gem) "you and OW have the same body type you are just marginally thinner than her" when aked if OW has lost or put on weight since i last saw her. Yes I did ask but did he really need to be honest?? After his reply i got into a sulk and just stuffed my face as i feel no matter how many times i go to the gym etc i will always be MARGINALLY better than that COW. So when independant people react so instaintly to her pic i feel instaint gratification as WS not helping me feel better about myself one iota. Yes R is dangerous in that sense as he is complimentary and notices my weight loss and gym effort and is repulsed by OW. can anyone really blame me for not snapping his head off at his comments??