Zelmo,

If you were wondering HOW one Plan A's without feeling like a schmuck or doormat, here's some good reading from BrambleRose. A great VET, Starfish, posted this to me on my first day here.....



From Bramblerose

Seems to be some confusion on more than a couple of threads about doormathood and Plan A.

Steve Harley says that if you feel like a doormat in Plan A, then you are doing a good job.

Why do you feel like a doormat in a GOOD Plan A?

Because we all have a Giver and a Taker. The Giver and Taker in balance and in a healthy relationship make sure that your needs are met, and that your partner's needs are met. A balanced Giver and Taker in combination with a POJA make for a marriage that protects and fulfills needs in a way that is mutually satisfying to BOTH. There is no doormathood in a POJA, because there is mutual respect and protection. Boundaries aren't needed between the couple - the boundaries enclose the couple as a unit - making them a compatible, intimate team.

But in Plan A, our Giver has to step up to the plate and we have to put the Taker on hold.

This means having to smile, act cheerful, perform acts of love (fill ENs), and root out lovebusters - when our Taker is raging inside, wanting to scream, cry, hurt back, beg, appease - whatever it takes to get our needs met, our world fixed and to get everything rebalanced.

This is why Dr. Harley says we can't follow our instincts - our instincts get us into trouble. Our Taker wants us to withdraw, to defend, to attack, to demand, to force the situation back into control.

We have to ignore our Taker in Plan A. It means having emotions, but choosing actions that are not emotionally based, but rather rationally based.

This means that we will FEEL like a doormat. That FEELING is because of a restrained Taker. This is why Plan A is only a limited timeline and Plan B is so important...because Plan A, done well, WILL drain a lovebank - since there is no Taker standing by to plug the leaks.

It seems though, that alot of people think that Plan A means suffering through extreme abuse. It does not mean lying down and allowing the WS to actively harm the BS or the BS children. It does not mean tiptoeing around the WS trying to appease or afraid to upset the WS by taking care of basic needs (finances, health - both emotional and physical). Boundaries HAVE to go into place, because there is NO safety - you have separate, conflicting agendas as long as there is an OP. Those boundaries shouldn't come down until there is proof of safety.

I discovered along the way, during my husband's affair, that the fastest way to get other people to respect me, including my husband, was to respect MYSELF.

You see, I interpreted the biblical "Love others as you love yourself" to mean: "Love others MORE than yourself - in fact, Love Others, NOT yourself because loving yourself is SELFISH and Others won't like you and if Others don't like you then you are worthless."

I put my self worth and my self respect in the hands of "others". And I was truely a DOORMAT in the ugliest sense of the word. That's a huge fact in what ultimately destroyed our marriage.

When I learned to tune out the "Others" including my husband, and started putting in boundaries to take care of myself, I was able to start making real choices about my behavior. I was able to really plan A. Funny - I didnt' really learn how to do a fantastic Plan A until I was headed into divorce court. If that's not an example of boundaries (needed to ensure financial safety of myself and the kids) while in Plan A, I don't know what is! [Smile] But it started with mental boundaries. I learned to choose my actions rather than react to my emotions. That "Detachment with Love" gave me the ability to smile, act cheerful, nonchalant, and to get on with my life while my husband was self-destructing. I learned how to be happy, even though there was crisis galore in my life. As I learned how to do this, it became easier to do outward things - like insist on a visitation schedule, without the presence of OW, and to be ready to enforce it legally.

What I did was turn my Taker into a non-lovebusting protector. I had to learn to turn that Taker away from self-demands and judgements on my husband and to intentionally turn that taker in other directions.

I'd love to ask Steve about this some time...but I think that learning to point that Taker elsewhere, keeps it busy and keeps the lovebank from exhausting itself as quickly.

Anyway, I hope this helps, or maybe some other vetrans can hop in here with anything I've missed.

Plan A makes you FEEL like a Doormat. It doesn't mean you act like one! [Smile]

there was a whole thread on it, but it seems to be "lost" at the moment...or the link I was given is not longer good....anyway, does this help at all.....

not2fun

I found another Harley quote on this subject:


Another key reason that plan A should not go on forever is that giving without reciprocity can cause more harm than good. Examples of damaging consequences would be a) the BS grows to hate the WS, b) the BS feels entitled to have an affair. How many WS' have we seen who claimed they had been "giving and giving" for years with no return? Extreme giving breeds resentment which breeds an entitlement mentality that says "I have given and given and by golly it is my turn!"

Mel,

Do you think this is a fair and true statement given by the WS?
I only ask, because H had said this pretty a lot in the beginning ("I have given and given and by golly it is my turn" is nearly quote for quote what came outta WH's mouth at the time...).

But, after the A and later on in early R, he saw that it wasn't necessarily a true statement. Yes he had given, but so had I. In fact, ask most anyone who knows us, and they would have told you that I was the extreme Giver and H the extreme Taker.

So, I guess I really just wonder how true that statement is when the WS gives it.......wouldn't it seem likely that ALL WS would say that, whether it was true or not???

not2fun

not2fun, I think it is absolutely true that most feel that way. We hear it all the time here. That is why extreme giving is such a dumb strategy.

Just think how you feel when you give and give and give with no return? Don't you resent it? I know I do. I remember spending an entire miserable Saturday going from car dealership to car dealership with my H to look at cars. It was a major sacrifice for me and when he wouldn't do what I wanted to do the NEXT Saturday, resentment set in! But that was my fault entirely for agreeing to do something I didn't want to do.

That is why I avoid sacrifice in my marriage. Extreme giving leads to extreme taking.

Did you read Dr Harley's article about When to Call it Quits? He cites one of the reasons a BS should leave a bad marriage where there is no reciprocity, is because it makes them vulnerable to an affair and leads to an entitlement attitude.

I understand what you are saying......

While most WS may "feel" that way, does that necessarily mean its true?......while the WS thinks it is, it doesn't always mean was, kwim?

I guess when I hear someone say, "I gave and gave and by golly its time I got something...", I hear "BS never ever gave....I was the only Giver..."....

hmmmmm....thinking this one through........

And yes, I read "When to call it quits?".......thanks to your link on signing up for the emails.....

not2fun

not2fun, oh no, I believe it is true in many cases. That is the refrain of someone who has been engaging in SACRIFICE and has built a resentment. So when he is presented with the choice of having an affair, he justifies it by telling himself how unappreciated he is. And his BS might have even been a giver herself, but if he was engaging in sacrifice, he probably had a resentment that he used to justify his affair.

People who sacrifice tend to "keep score" and when the score is off balance, in their mind, they feel entitled to even the score, so to speak. Many affairs are entitlement fueled by resentment.

Okay, maybe I'm getting hung up on the sacrifice part......


This is CERTAINLY true in my WS.......I think I'm hung up on the sacrifice part....My H worked HUGE amounts. He had started a business, was working 50-70 hrs a week. But I didn't tell him to do that. He did it that by his OWN choice.....in fact I was starting to RESENT his working so much.....big time. And then he goes and has an A, because he was sacrificing????....this confuses me.....

not2fun

I don't know what your situation is, not2fun, but generally speaking when someone makes sacrifices in a marriage, it breeds resentment. Resentment fuels entitlement. It is usually wayward wives who feel this way. For example, they claim they toil and labor and give and give and give with nothing in return. [and remember, they do this by choice! there was not a gun to their head] Pretty soon that resentment gives way to an entitlement mentality that is used to justify an affair.

Anyway, if you want to learn more about this, I would pick up Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders. I think that explains it the best.

Which books do you have on hand?

Okay, this one makes sense to me.....kinda.....


SAA, HNHN, Love Busters, FILSIL.......

Thanks for the help Mel,,,,,guess I need to get my head around this one....funny, hadn't really thought about much before now...

not2fun

not2fun, I hope you do pick up that book, because it was a real eye opener to me. We regularly practiced sacrifice in our marriage, and it did nothing but cause us to be incompatible. And if either of you are doing that, it spells trouble on the horizon.

I just ordered it. This all just has me confused.....

Like your WW example....she may have gave and gave and gave, but did she think her H was doing nothing???....his working meant nothing???.....I guess I'm confused at this concept....JEEZZZ, you'd think after nearly 2 yrs on here, I would've learned something by now.....

not2fun

I think I was somewhat equivocal on whether I wanted to save the marriage, as I was in a very abusive one( lots of silent treatments, cold water dousings in the shower, emasculating remarks and check bouncing, including my XWW stealing from our kids parochial school tuition money to buy clotes for herself(she had over 50 bikinis, most withthe tags still on them, for example).
So, I am sure this is coloring my ability to see myself willing to do a good Plan A.
I guess if I'd had a loving, nice spouse all along, and thischaeting was an aberration, I may have been more willing to do a better one.
But, even with all the above, I never raged. I was pleasant enough and offered to go to MC. These efoorts were derided and the abuse continued. My XWW called me horrible names in front of the kids and even took a swing at me after I told the kids we were getting divorced and she was unwilling to work on the marriage.

I understand what you are saying Z.

For me personally, my M was HORRID for about a year prior to A. H wasn't always a great person, BUT neither was I. And in fact, I KNEW I hadn't met my H's EN's in a long time.....even when he said something to me.....long story....

So for me, it was a case of WE both sucked......and I needed to clean up MY own act....throw in 14 yrs, 3 wonderful kids, and many many times that WERE good, and that's why I did what I did....

BTW, to me personally, meeting the EN'S were the easiest part. It was controlling and eliminating LB's that was difficult. In fact, you'll find that Dr. H has many BS's start there......

No too hard to get up and look good,,,,,controlling AO'S, DJ'S about the current situation.....nearly IMPOSSIBLE.....

not2fun

Don't forget texts, email, cards, an IM.

Also admire him to his family and friends. Word might get back to him.

The way I see it, Not, is that he was working and working and he felt like he was sacrificing by giving up "fun" so he could be a good provider. He was meeting the EN of financial security (and possibly domestic support if he was doing repair chores around the house). Apparently FS (and possibly DS) was not his wife's top need. So he was busting his tail meeting the "wrong" ENs.

His wife was probably doing the same thing. She "gave and gave" by being understanding of his long hours, and stuffed her needs. She may have been giving, too, by meeting ENs that were not her husband's top ENs. We don't know from the information given, but it's possible and I'd say likely -- otherwise she wouldn't feel like she'd "given and given."

What a shame, if both of them had Recreational Companionship and Conversation as their top ENs. He could have worked shorter hours, she could have spent less time focused on makeup and housework, and they could have been insanely happy together. Instead, they put unreasonable amounts of effort into the wrong areas, and both felt cheated as a result.