You know, SNS, I get the impression that you have pushed the envelope as far as you are comfortable pushing. And I'm not saying there's a thing wrong with that, if that is acceptable to you and your W. Maybe she had an A, is totally remorseful, but doesn't plan to tell you. Maybe she thinks that she can just keep that 'lapse' to herself, never do it again, and all will be well with the two of you. Are you willing to live that way? If you are, go to it and and good luck. Maybe that would work for your M.
If you've pushed as far as you plan to push, and all you've gotten for your efforts are thoughts about premenopausal issues and a W who covers her mouth when she answers questions, and you're good with that, I'm not sure what you're looking for, here.
And I'm not being mean, SNS...don't know what it is about my posts today - they all seem cranky, darn it :)But truly - consider letting this possible A go if the events thus far are as far as YOU wish to go.

MB,

You are right that I have pushed the envelope as far as I'm comfortable -- but I also realize that growth is about pushing through that comfort barrier, and I'm willing to do so.

Am I willing to live with if she had an A, is remorseful but doesn't plan to tell me? If that were true, what choice would I have? But I know that if she did and doesn't plan to do it again, it doesn't mean she won't do it again. If she doesn't confess it to me, we can't work on why it happened and put into place EP's to make sure it doesn't happen again. And I will always have trust issues with her without resolving this one way or the other.

What would you suggest I do, now knowing what you do about the background of my M?

Not to mention that, as long as she has a drawerful of lingerie that she never wears for me, I'm always going to have the question in the back of my mind, "Who is/was/will she wear them for?"

I have been thinking about this a lot this morning. I do need to bring this up with her again, and this time not settle for "I don't know..." as an answer. Since the presence of these things in the house is a trigger for me, I need to express that to her. She will probably throw another fit when I suggest we get rid of any she never plans to wear for me -- maybe she's thinking if something happens to me or we ever D, she'll need them? I say bunk with that! If, in the future, we're not together for any reason and she wants lingerie to tra... I mean attract another mate, then she can get some more then.

(Okay, I'm not suggesting she "trapped" me -- it was just my warped sense of humor interjecting. But sometimes I think the mating game between men & women IS a little like fishing...lure 'em in with attractive bait and hook 'em when they bite! How many posts have you read on here where SF stopped once a ring was on? Okay, maybe not on this particular forum, but I've read plenty elsewhere on that note. Sometimes, on my darker days, I wonder if she really loves me, or just hooked me to help raise the two girls she had when I met her? I have known single moms who were just looking for a meal ticket. It's pretty despicable. I choose to believe that my W isn't that way).

Something I didn't mention earlier. I was aware of when the forum server came back up, but I refrained from rejoining for awhile because, during the outage, I thought about what those who said they didn't think my W had an A had expressed, and what my W said (and didn't say) about the OM Bday.

We all agree that I tend to analyze things to death. So, I decided to try accepting that maybe my W didn't do anything in June, that perhaps I just connected a bunch of dots (strange behaviors, perhaps unrelated) into a picture of an A. The question became, "Why?" What is going on in my head and heart which would cause me to go there? I even discussed this with MC before my W decided to join me.

I had a number of strange dreams in June which included adultery (either on her part or mine) before I suspected anything was even wrong (other than the unresolved conflicts we'd had the last 3 years about SF). But there's not a lot of what I see here from BH's about what their WW's are doing, and three weeks of snooping (incl PI) turned up nothing.

Even one of my BFF's I had lunch with yesterday (who is a BH himself, now D) thinks most of what I think I see isn't an indication of anything having happened...except for the part about her telling me she "might not be wearing her wedding ring" about the time vendor OM was in town. That fact still makes him (and me) uncomfortable.

So -- should I ask MC or my PCP for medications that might help me if I'm suffering delusions of my W having A's? What are the side effects (including the ones the MD's won't necessarily tell you)? Will it make me an uncaring SOB, or just even out my moods? And is that really the problem, here?

If I'm the problem, I'm willing to get help, which is why I started the MC in the first place...

I gotta tell you SNS, before D-Day I was carrying some extra weight. Most people can't believe I've lost 50 lbs. since D-Day, because they never thought I was 'fat'. Well. Bulky clothing can hide a multitude of sins. And you know what? My FWH never thought I was heavy, either. But I felt heavy - and refused to wear MY sexy little things for him because of my body issues. I've got them in a drawer. I still haven't worn them, minus 50 lbs. later. (I am now considered anorexic - weight issues at the other end of the scale, sorry for the pun. They seem like good things to have 'in theory' if that makes even an ounce of sense, LOL. Your W may be the same way.

I am an over-analyzer as well, but I think the problem is that you don't have anything to overanalyze, especially if you have a stopping point you keep reaching, where you can't proceed for more information.

You may never know about your W's A, or lack thereof. You seem to be at an impasse as far as determining that. I'm just saying that, without more concrete evidence and without more prying, and without admission on your W's part, I think you're about as far as you can go. Are you okay with that? Can you be at peace with that and have a healthy M? She's left her job, right? So, so much for OM, we can assume? Can you continue forward with both of you feeling peace and at a safe place?

You'd be surprised. I'm really just echoing Anna here, but count me as another vote for someone who really feels uncomfortable and awkward in lingerie. It would be a huge deal to buy it. To not be "asked" specifically to wear it would make me feel like you didn't actually like it, and that any thanks or fuss was made because of the audience present at the time. Believe me, something like this can be really hard to do. Buying it is the easy part.

Okay, thanks Tabby. Because I don't want to drive myself more crazy with this and several of you gals have suggested I ask, I'll go ahead and ask her to wear it. Maybe I've been making a mountain out of a molehill. We have been otherwise getting along better the last month or so. Perhaps you're right that she's been waiting for me to ask (as strange as that seems to me as a guy)...

MB,

Yes, I think that I can accept that (mood swings like today notwithstanding!).

This is why I'm also trying to analyze what the deal is with me, why do I think this, etc? Before June 26th, I had no suspicions of anything like an A happening (although I did have those weird dreams -- but in some of them, I was the guilty party).

Thank you for the woman's perspective on body issues. I think my W looks lovely. She carries a little extra weight on her tummy since having our last kid, but it's nothing I find detracting. But maybe it really bothers her.

I'll try to remember to take that into account when I go to ask her to wear it...

Good. And when she does wear it, make sure you compliment it. Compliment how it makes her look (just be careful to avoid any fat butt/gut comments or innuendos). Make sure she knows how much you like it or she'll assume you hate it. (silly, I know, but it's the truth!)

And don't say "fine".

UGH! When I ask how I look in something....He says "fine", I hear "bad".

Yeah, I definitely know already that "fine" is a bad word, and "Go ahead!" is not permission or agreement...it's a dare! ;-D

Thanks for the advice. :-)

...and when a gal says, "Does this make my butt look big?", unless it's consistent with your common ethnicity and culture, you should not break out in a rap, "I...like...big...BUTTS and I can not lie..."

;-D

Even if you do...

Like I mentioned somewhere else - because I've lost so much weight, I am considered anorexic (working on getting the 'eating button' working again) but I STILL am very sensitive about that pouchy little excess skin thing I've got from giving birth - so much so that I would feel awkward wearing any little sexy things. Maybe it's a chick thing.

SNS(LD) sorry to see you back with the same lingering doubts. I cant remember but did you ever just come out and ask her why vendor mans birthday was so important that she made note of it? also is she still gaurding her purse and phone?

Boy, I can so relate. My DH also "sees" me in a way that I'm not (anymore). LOL Just the other day he asked me what happened to that cute-little-short-black-lace thingie that I used to wear for him. I say, "you mean that cute-little-short-black-lace thingie that I wore TWENTY years/pounds ago?!?!"

If I had opened some lingerie in front of my DH and did not get a response or an immediate "invite" (even if it was just in his eyes) -- I'd be wary about wearing it too.

DSD,

Yes, I did eventually break and ask her about vendor OM's Bday. At first, she denied the day had any significance for her when I asked if it did. Then I told her I knew it was his BDay, and asked why she had it in her work calendar but not her home calendar. She pretty much gaslighted me big time. "I don't know why I have that there, I don't know how it got there, how did you find out about it?" etc. I told her I received a screen capture in an anonymous email. She went WAY overboard trying to uncover how that happened and seemed more concerned about what that might possibly portend rather than the fact that I was concerned she was having an A with vendor OM. Even said things like "I don't like him" (didn't mean "hate him/can't stand", but more in the sense of a HS girl saying the same thing about some boy who likes her). She tried to defend by saying she had "lots of coworker's birthdays in there", but I saw only a few in her work calendar, which were also in her home calendar. She seemed to expend a lot of energy trying to deflect me from going that direction, up to convulsively sobbing that I didn't believe her.

She is no longer guarding her purse, but seems to have the phone nearby a lot -- I'm guessing just convenience. I have not yet seen anything strange on the bill or TXT history (and you can bet I'm checking!). She quit her job so doesn't have work desktop/laptop computer or BB, so I'm guessing if she were to continue something, she'd have to risk doing so from her home laptop or desktop computer (the latter of which seems to be down with a virus ATM) or her personal cell. And with the reduced income, we're on a low budget, so I don't think she has another phone. She's being very loving and affectionate, wants to do things with me, spend time with me, so I am hopeful that it means that there is nothing going on now and won't be in the future. What happened in June and last summer I'll probably never know, unless she uncharacteristically decides to risk telling me. And I'm still of the opinion that I would forgive her if she confessed and repented.

Then again, all this snooping and speculation on my part has formed an addiction of its own, which I am trying to recover from. The lingerie thing seems to have triggered me back into it. I was doing better for a few weeks...

DSD,

I said she wasn't guarding her purse, but it occurs to me that today when I took her to lunch, at the end she once again went to the restroom and took her purse with her, which she normally does not do. I didn't feel like she was in a hurry to get away to call someone like I did last time that happened. Maybe I am trying to be a little more trusting?

PrincessMeggy,

Thanks for the perspective. Maybe I screwed up in how I reacted. I was a bit surprised and just a little embarassed to be opening that up in front of the girls. I knew about the gift because of what happened when she ordered it, but was expecting/hoping that she'd be presenting it on display later that evening, IYKWIM.

MB,

Re: "Chick thing", maybe so. Just from a guy's perspective, it's still hard for me to understand why, when she's told me she doesn't like wearing them, she'd order it in secret, remove it in secret, then come and suggest it by asking if she "should order it" for me, get it in, and only THEN feel weird about actually wearing it. Mi no comprende...

SNS note what time it was that she took her purse and check the phone bill! could it be that its time for her period or close to it?