whoa! just when I was getting hopeful...
I had a conversation with my MIL earlier in the week. She had been included in the exposure. In that conversation she was demonstrating signs of having been gaslighted (although I really didn't know about the concept at the time). She was holding onto the belief that the EA my WW's been having has had no impact on our relationsip and that her daughter has been unhappy for a "long time." I was very upset and had been developing a sense that I really wanted to start surrounding myself with allies in the war against this infidelity situation.
So, I wrote her a letter. Snail Mail.
I asked her to support our marriage and, probably unwisely, stated that I was considering anyone who wasn't in support to be an enemy. I explained that her daughter was exhibiting every textbook symptom of a person having an affair and I needed her help if we were to save the marriage.
Evidently it didn't go over very well.
Her voicemail had me accusing her of not being in support of the marriage and "I can't believe that, I've been telling you to go to counselling....now I'm wondering if that was good advice based on this behavior"
My wife says her Mother is now "very nervous" and this is just another example of my [independent activity], which has been a problem for me in this marriage. I really got the impression she was mostly upset that I continue to speak in direct terms about her relationship with the OM. It's kinda like I was doing an extended exposure (an exposure after the exposure, so to speak), but at the same time hoping to get some support (I also explained that I wanted the marriage to work and I wanted her daugter to be happy).

Where did I go wrong?
Or is this normal- stick to plan A.

optimism

Re: above - MIL seems to have calmed down, anyway, I'm focussing on my marriage.
Here's the amazing revelation from the weekend. It seems that WW has developed an averstion for OM. Not the kind of emotion-filled aversion that you don't want, but real lack of feeling. I think I know her well enough to know that she's not lying. He made a couple fo real stupid moves last week and I think spelled his own demise with her. She has no real tolerance for certain behavior and according to her, she has completely cut off from him emotionally. I think this might be an uncommon situation, since it's only been less than a couple of weeks since the exposure (which really shook her up); but truthfully, I'm now convinced that she wasn't as attached to her as I had suspected (something she had been trying to tell convince me of for a while). It seems he was so persistant (and predatory) that she was trying to extricate herself from the situation but he would manage to weasle his way back in after some time. I think with the exposure, this will not happen on the next go-around. I will continue to be diligent, but at this time I think the EA might be behind us.
Here's my question:
Let's assume the NC stays in effect and she really is done with the OM...
Is it reasonable to expect her to continue to keep me at arm's length? I think she's still pretty resentful about the exposure (I refuse to apologize as she put us in the situation with the EA).
She is still latched onto the separation/divorce eventuality. Is this normal and perhaps a way to save face? (ie "see, the OM's gone and I'm still not in love with you, it was just like I said - nothing to do with the OM in the first place")
--still waiting for my copy of SAA, not sure what to expect here--
Plan: continue with Plan A.
thanks for any input.
OPtimism

Yeah, afraid so. I equate women with cats and men with dogs. Dogs, you can hurt them, and they'll still come back with tails wagging. Hurt a cat, and she'll be wary of you for a looooong time before trusting you again.

You'd better plan on Plan A for at least 6 more months, if not 12. She has to trust you to be what will take care of her and her needs.

Opt, any progress you make in R will be dashed once you tell your WW the truth. I think your square one should be telling her about your A.

Heck yeah!

Just curious -- during the course of your exposure, did you mention to ANY of your targets about her previous physical affair? Or had it been previously exposed?

While yours stayed safely hidden?

Because if that is the case (and even if you have only exposed the recent EA) you should expect MASSIVE ANGER -- and rightly so.
How freaking hypocritical of you to expose her, ruin her reputation and turn everyone against her....

This happened to me too and I have never forgiven my XH for hiding his affair from me for all those years....

She is rather right to feel manipulated and like property -- thats how you've treated her. You never gave her the true choice of remaining married or told her the truth of the state of your marriage. You hid it from her and kept her in place with lies. Lies of omission too. But now SHE has to tow the line and jump into place etc. because YOU want her to.

I suggest you wait to tell her after you've consulted with a professional, because I don't see this going good at all.

Can you expand on the history some more?

When was her prior PA? provide more details on when, how long, how it ended, what you did to recover...

How many affairs have you had? You said the last was in 2002. Again, how did it end, what did you do to recover? I assume she has no knowledge of it. How many ONS's?

So you are aware of her prior PA and current EA -- but she has no knowledge of your prior PA's?

And yet you have exposed her affair (s?) to friends and family. It seems to me at the very least you should have exposed yours as well. How fair is it to present her dirty laundry to the world while you keep yours hidden?

I really think your exposure was ill-advised until you found a way to address the ENTIRE issue of infidelity in your marriage.

OMG you guys are so right.
I have felt some sense of that and it�s probably why I actually have felt compelled to drag my past out of the closet the last week or so. Fact is several people who I exposed to including family members and one neighbor have been informed in a vague way that I too have not been entirely faithful and that WW and I would be working through those issues as we moved forward. I have spoken to a member of clergy about it. I talked with my highly Catholic Mom about it. Our counselor knows but not the details. I�m trying to come to grips with it. But point taken: my infidelity has not been addressed to WW, and it wasn�t fair for me to expose her with my past. I just didn�t know, in the state I was in. I rushed into the exposure a little half-cocked (as mentioned I made several other errors in execution). And the reason we didn�t get to it last therapy session was because that was more all about the EA and there�s only so much time in a session. I figured what�s another week or two after 8 years of something that was completely buried? I, like many WS�s (especially men, just out for sex) didn�t realize the destructive nature of an affair until all this, and reading material here and Harley�s books. My 2 wk affair ended luckily with OW moving to another state after declaring herself done with it (she was single and changed jobs).
I never had another because it wasn't really all that fun; sneaking around and everything. For the record my wife does know that I have had episodes of indiscretion in the past. Just not everything. Also, what would you all make of the fact that she has never asked me about my fidelity? I�ve never outright lied about my affairs; except that not telling her was lying.
Her original PA ended with an unwanted pregnancy and ultimately the birth of our DD (8). I adopted her officially. The only thing she doesn�t have is my genes which I make up for with all of the love in my heart.
I believe that my PA (*and 4 ONS's ending in GN kiss, which all basically served as a build up to the PA involving intercourse) was some sort of sick reaction to her PA. And no, I don�t think her PA was ever really addressed properly with therapy � she has stated recently that she has carried around a lot of guilt after that episode (unfortunately, because I forgave her before DD was even born).
I totally see that all the plan A progress will probably be undone with my D-day (if that�s how you say it). However, what was worrying me more was that it would be another reason for her to check out of the marriage while she was still in her fog (and a push toward the OM, kinda like a massive LB). This continues to concern me. We have a session planned in two days. I wanted to get into several of the OTHER contributions I�ve had in putting her in a position to go astray (like DJ�s, and IB�s, not fostering trust). I was hoping to try to build back some of her confidence, let her know that I think we could have an awesome marriage. Eliminate my LB's and really develop better habits of acceptance, at least for a week or so. And then reveal my sordid past.
I guess that�s not what you all are suggesting?

(not so much) Optimism

Yeah, that'll go over great. Not.

You know what works? Complete and utter humility and begging for forgiveness.

A week? You think a week should take care of it?
You have a lengthy history of a messed up relationship, and you think a WEEK should do it????

Opt...you need the Harley's....badly.

I think it was a HUGE miscalculation to expose and embarass your wife like you did.

I really don't like that you have secrets and a hidden affair, but I have to warn you that if you reveal this any time soon, while she is still angry about the exposure -- I think you will put your marriage in serious jeapardy.

And you have a serious problem with timing. This is NOT something that can be fixed in a week or two. Being a decent husband for a couple weeks, after being a crappy one for YEARS isn't going to do the trick.

I think your wife is disengaged. I think she's likely been in withdrawal from you for years -- which is why she doesn't ask about your fidelity....and possibly why she was vulnerable to another affair.

Let me ask you a question.

Why is fidelity important to you now?

BEST question to ask any wayward !
Good one Lexxxxxx

Lex, I didn't mean I was only going to put effort forth for a week. I am talking about waiting a week or so to regain some footing after the events of the last couple of weeks, and then get into the subject of past acts.

I will contemplate your question, but at this time I can say this, fidelity was always important to me. We've been totally true to each other for 8 years, people make mistakes. Things were going fine until OM stepped into the picture in April. Sure, we didn't have a Harley relationship with all the components in every chapter; not many take the time to familiarize themselves with these concepts until things go awry (am I correct?).

Lex, I'm very interested in your point of view. I feel that I may be stirring up so mch anger in you that you're trying to beat me up instead of offering some constructive suggestions about how to proceed. Of course I've made miscalculations, you think I haven't been scared that my whole family is crumbling under my feet? Sure, I've acted out of panic and desparation. My wife was taken over by a body-snatcher all summer and hasn't even been herself. I'm trying to piece as much information together from this website and books as I can and things are happenning so fast, but yet painfully slow at the same time.

I know I've made mistakes, but I've also been a good husband overall. I want to make a fantastic marriage to replace the one that we've had. I think it can be done with the guidance here and the approach of MB & lots of therapy and continued introspection/ habit changes. I really am working hard here and I love my wife more than anything.

I will start with "complete and utter humility and begging for forgiveness." Any further recommendations would be entirely welcomed.

thanks, Opt

Opt --


What I am trying to tell you is that a week will do absolutely nothing for you.

I do relate to your situation...because I experienced something very similar. My XH was desperate to stop my affair. I was a classic fence-sitter and did not want to make any drastic decisions. I didn't want him....but I wasn't ready to let go of my family. Things were fading with OM, but I also truly hadn't been happy in my marriage for a long long time. I never did end up with OM. I ended the affair. And I ended my marriage.

I will tell you that the moment my XH told me about his infidelity I was DONE. So many things fell into place for me at that moment.
All of his independent behavior, hmmm...made sense...
His inability to gain true emotional intimacy with me, aha...made sense...
His holding back....made sense.

Its funny too that all of my memories about my affair are so foggy -- I have no clear memories of dates, times, discussions. Everything is kinda hazy and unclear. But I remember in sharp clear detail the moment that I found out I had been been betrayed.

His revelation simply solidified for me the decision that we should divorce. Because I was completely withdrawn from him. His confession did not endear him to me, it infuriated me.

Why couldn't he have had the balls to admit all of that to me before I had completely self-destructed myself with the affair?
His lies meant that I had built my whole family on faulty information. I deserved the TRUTH of my life. I spent almost 20 years building a life based on lies. How do you forgive that?

And his decision to withhold that was so very selfish.
And really? He's going to lecture me about what is "right" or "wrong"??? Pretty hypocritical don't you think?

And that is where you are. From what moral position do you think you have the right to tell her that what she is doing is wrong?

So how do you untangle that Opt? Of course affairs are wrong. But who are you to lecture her about that?
And if you tell her what you've done, I fear and suspect that it might be the straw...ya know?

I don't think she is engaged in your marriage. I don't think she is committed. I fear that you telling her might have the same impact it had on me.

I think Lexxy was the one who recommended it first, but please please call the Harleys.

Lexxxy (and others),
Thanks for your interest and assistance. I understand what you were saying now. And thanks again for your honesty.
It seems like there are a lot of similarities here and I appreciate your input. It�s very possible that WW has been checking out of the marriage for some time and the EA was just the last symptom of that. I hope not, but as this whole thing has forced tremendous self reflection and introspection, I can see that I have not been an ideal husband. I�ve made these feelings explicitly clear to my wife. I�ve also become very convinced that the bad habits (LBs, etc) I developed were not part of my actual character and that they can be replaced with positive actions based on compassion, consideration, selflessness. These are the ideals I would like to model for my children anyway, and to be perfectly honest, I like being nice. I�ve had a tendency to do so in the past, but it was often short-lived because (I think) of the issues that have come up for us, ranging from allowing the children to usurp our time to our issues with intimacy (all things to address as we move forward).

Anyway, with ALL of your encouragement (and against EVERYONE else�s), D-day for me was 11/11.
I took the advice of waiting for a night when we had a counseling session scheduled but I didn�t wait till the session itself as I didn�t want her to feel ambushed. I then approached the whole thing with the utmost humility. I told her I never meant to hurt her and that there was no excuse for my actions and that what I did was wrong in every sense of the word. I said I didn�t expect her to forgive me. I told her everything.
Her immediate reaction shocked me a little. She was actually very surprised, but also very understanding. She definitely took the whole thing into perspective and acknowledged that if anything like that were to happen, then would have been the time. In our therapy session just after she announced that it was like we were at �square one.�

I believe staying off my high horse in regards to her affair may have been helpful. I have never made her feel guilty, only tried to let her know how much the situation hurt me and our family. I exposed, but I think I did so in the most respectful way possible.

Since then there have been some minor vacillations and she definitely hasn�t jumped back into the marriage; I don�t expect it. I don�t really even want it. I would like to have time to prove to her and myself that I can provide for her the type of home she wants; to meet her emotional needs and become the lovers we never really were. This may take years. I may fail. But I�m not a quitter and this is the most important thing I�ve ever done in my life.

I expect there will be days when she does feel like you Lexxx, thinking that she was married to a stranger for 8 years; someone who kept a secret from her. She says (and has repeated) that she�s not resentful. However, this may indeed wind up being the straw that broke the camel�s back. But it was well worth the risk. I can see now that marriage has to be built on complete and total honesty, without it, that seed of holding something back leads to other issues without our even knowing it.

Now, it�s on with Plan A. Continued therapy. More reading. And �call the Harley�s.� Do I do that on my own? Right now, I don�t think she�s up for it. NC has only really gone on for a week. She�s still pretty withdrawn, and obviously probably not sure if she about me; (of course I don�t blame her, I just pray I can win back her trust). Or should I wait and see if she ever comes around to the point of wanting to take this approach with me?

Optimism

ps. Could someone tell me if my profile is presented correctly?

I'm executing a pretty good Plan A. NO LB's, being "stellar" and providing a safe environment for my Wife. (more details on developments to the EA Story, when I get a chance, and thanks so much to everyone who has taken an interest and guided me thusfar).

Quick question:
I have an appointment with a physchologist on Monday to talk about either anti-depressants and/or sleep meds due to the anxiety I have whenever I'm away from her (mind races with thoughts of her infidelity).
DO I TELL WW?
I DO NOT WANT TO APPEAR WEAK. Although I've read that AD's are okay during this period, I also I'm trying to (and basically succeeding) to portray myself as confident and someone my wife will want to be with.

IB is a LB, is this IB? how to approach this one.

thanks for any input!

optimism

Yes, with the exception of snooping, I don't think you should hide anything from her.

How has your W been handling your revelation of your past A? Did you end up calling the Harleys?

Susie,
Thanks for your response. Okay, I'll just be honest with everything except the snooping. That's good.

It's hard for me to answer your question about how she's handling my A. On the outside, she has not acted any different than I would expect her to at this time (even without the D-day). She has not brought it up except once when she said she had a temptation to try to visualize the whole thing, but that was not helpful for her, so she stopped (I'm assuming sharing details with her is not recommended; I let it drop, but I did tell her that the whole thing was pretty unfulfilling [and it was], and also that I had gone through some legitimate withdrawal after NC for a couple of weeks - I'm not trying to "educate her" but I think she doesn't understand the depression she's going through as her NC had been about 8 days at that point.)
To be frank, I think right now the issues she's concerned with about me run deeper than my A (not that it might not resurface in the future). Stuff like our intimacy issues, if we're "really suited to be together," and general fog-related questions.

I think she's still resentful about the exposure. It's hard to tell, because she actually admitted last week (after my d-day with her) that it helped. She is a very prideful person, however. I can count on on hand the number of times she's apologized about anything or admitted she was wrong. She comes by that honestly. I've learned that she may not say it outwardly, but she kind-of has her own way of apologizing.

So, we've had some up and down days/times. I guess that's plan A. I'm continuing to focus on myself, eliminating LB's and trying to at least be available to meet EN's. We've spent some time watching shows she likes together (that's her leisure activity). We've talked but I'm redirecting if we get into the M. I'm being confident and helpful around the house. REAL helpful. I like it, I feel way more involved with the family and I'm way more calm (due to eliminating LB of outbursts and DJ's).

I have NOT called the Harleys because I'm still not clear on if this is something I'm doing on my own, or if I wait until W gets out of the fog and actually tries to start engaging in a recovery effort? When does recovery officially start? Does it start for me first and then her??
If I do this alone, with that expenditure, isn't that a huge LB (one of her identified most damaging- Independent Behavior, especially in regards to spending money)?
I also have yet to read SAA; I ordered it but something got screwed up, so I'm having to order it again. I think I would want to be very familiar with the concepts before I call and waste their time with rudimentary stuff...

I would love to get my WW on board with MB, right now, that seems a ways off.
How's this one?:
Our counseling session this week consisted with the therapist grilling me on why I would expose my wife's affair at the risk of humiliating her and pushing her further away. He also asked if I ever planned to apologize about this. I was almost speechless, but held my ground as best I could. I wish I would have remembered to say "the M can handle humiliation, it can't handle the dishonesty of an A." He pushed me so hard I think my W actually felt sorry for me. I'm a little concerned that we're not getting the perfect advice, but at least we're talking every week in a safe environment. He does want us to succeed, but definitely is not aware of MB. It's the best we have at this time, so I have to stick with it.

Snooping has revealed NO text's from OM in 9 days. Also that 300 texts had been deleted in the two months prior. No way to know what they said (Boost Mobile doesn't give it). I guess there's no reason to perseverate on it either.

Any further feedback will be much appreciated. This site has been tremendously helpful (my posts and reading others'). I don't know where my M will be in a year, but with all your help, I'll be a better man, parent, and hopefully husband.

Optimism

Send your counselor the link to MB. Tell him that if he wants to continue counseling you guys (i.e., get paid), you would appreciate it if he would read about your program before spouting off on something he knows nothing about.

Have you ever watched a show called SuperNanny? You remind me of one episode where the dad would come home, sit down, get waited on and left alone, 'for a few minutes,' and then never get up from his chair for the rest of the night. Every night. (not that you do, just your comment about helping)

So, SuperNanny Jo set up a work chart for the whole family. You could literally see the pain on this guy's face, as he realized she expected him to do housework! In fact, she came back the next day, and he had covered up his part on the chart!

It was really quite telling, and hilarious.

Jo made the wife leave for an hour, just to be by herself and not be responsible for the family. She wouldn't leave! Jo made her leave, and then she couldn't think of any place to go! So Jo finally told her to just get her iPod and go for a walk around the block. She did, and you could see the strain just lifting off her shoulders, as she spent the first 30 minutes alone for the first time in 12 or so years.

In the end, you saw him getting the kids to help him wash dishes. Or rake leaves, or vacuum, etc. And he had fun, because he was for the first time interacting with his kids!

It was such a neat show. At the end, he tearfully thanked her for opening up a part of his life he had been missing.

I love SuperNanny.