NP Susie (and others interested),
I just remembered something else Steve said that was pretty interesting/insightful.
For the reluctant spouse (WS, let's say) who is having trouble imagining a M in a place recovery, point out that on wedding day neither party imagined the current scenario.

Seems kind of obvious, but it was an encouraging thought to me nonetheless.

Opt

Hi all, sorry it�s been a while since I posted. I wanted to make sure WW didn�t have a line on this thread or that she was checking the site. It appears she hasn�t.

Unfortunately, in spite of my best efforts and following Steve�s plan, I was unable to persuade her to talk to Steve, at least this week . I had her agreeing with �the best scenario for HER happiness would be that she would be in love with the father of our children.� Even step two, but she fell off at the idea of talking to anyone about the relationship �right now� due to feeling like she�s �in a pressure cooker� and needs to �get away from it for a while.�

I found out tonight that the deep depression she suddenly fell into on Monday and Tuesday was probably due in part to a very friendly e-mail she received from OM on Monday am (I just found it today, Wednesday). She also renewed her battle cry of �needing separation� coincidentally at that point. :oAhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! (she had seen a lawyer on Saturday and got a dose of reality, was kind of warming up over the w/e)

But Steve�s advice was NOT to be reactionary at this point. And obviously I�m not giving up my source for one email. I�m plan A�ing, so not being the source of her unhappiness. I�m meeting needs when she�ll allow me to.

I believe a plan B might fall into my lap because she�s talking about moving out next month. I plan to talk to Steve next week about how to orchestrate that if it comes to it. If she�ll agree to talk to him, hopefully he can explain what NC means�

Anyway, I need to vent so here I am. (I read in another thread that�s a legitimate use of this board.)
WW is NOT observing true NC. She doesn�t reciprocate, but she just doesn�t (wont) understand that it�s still totally damaging. She also lies by omission about it.

I got the most amazing fog babble today and was ready to rip things up, but I held my cool. Here it is:
�if we�re going to get back together, you are going to have to forgive OM.�

I held it together and explained that I am a forgiving person and believe it�s part of life. And left it at that.
Also, the night before: �you�re being so nice is coming between me and the kids�
To which I responded that it is important that �we don�t want that�
She also flat out lied in counseling yesterday about contact (conveniently forgetting about the e-mail from the day before).

The counselor asked what one thing we could give to each other this week. She asked for �space,� I said all I want is honesty. Yea, fat chance.

I�ve been reading a lot of threads (and SAA) and find that my situation pales in comparison to many/most in that WW isn�t actively having PA in front of my eyes and my kids� like some situations out there. I know it�s more than she lets on, but still the magnitude is not like some stories out there. But this still hurts, having to go through this � seeing my wife turn into a lying alien, talking all kinds of BS with her head firmly implanted in her A$$.
-Opt-

Opt,

Our situations are very similar. My thread is "Want new start- wife doesn't". (Sorry, I dont know how to post link). Your thread has been very helpful to me and I used the line about ideal situation for her to be in love with father of her kids. She agreed. She also agreed to talk to Steve, but by herself. She refuses NC and says she does not want to try to recover. I'm hoping for a miracle!!

Re: broken NC.
Is this a good idea? I read in SAA that "John" (BH) used to write letters to "Sue" (WW)due to his inability to talk to her. WW would never let me get past the first sentence below...

What I'm trying to accomplish is NOT education. Just to let her know that she's treading on thin ice: shortly after the first exposure I promised not to "keep telling her friends she was having an affair" if she promised to "stop having an affair." I don't think she wants to go through that again.

Incidentally, is there such a thing as a second exposure? I was thinking I would make the next one a written snail mail letter. Not sure how that would work. Or would I just plan B her at some point. (NOT looking forward to that).

Dear WW,
I wanted you to know that I have drawn some conclusions from your behavior in the last several days. The fact that on Tuesday and Wednesday of this week you specifically brought up OM�s name tells me that he (or you) have broken the No Contact agreement that we had. On Tuesday his name came up in counseling and you were back to defending him as someone who would �never hurt� you, and that he was �heart broken�. Then on Wednesday, you gave me the condition that �if we were to get back together, you would have to forgive him.� Again, a sympathetic position showing me that he has managed to rekindle the feelings you have for him. Your tremendous depression on Monday and Tuesday (your words �the worst I have felt in years�) tells me that you are wrestling with some considerable emotion and that did not happen just out of the blue. I suspect he probably got you on the phone. On Sunday, we were having a great time together until you listened to your �6 messages� that were left during the movie. You immediately became ill and could not eat your dinner. I would imagine that at least one of those messages was from him. I suspect the renewed battle cry of �needing space� has a lot to do with your need to pursue ways to remain in contact without interference from your family.

Maybe you�ve talked to him, maybe not. Maybe he�s texted you in addition. Maybe you�ve returned communication, maybe you haven�t. None of that matters. What is important is that every time he shows his face to you or lets you hear his voice, you are instantly reminded of all the positive emotions that go along with the relationship that you shared. He has an instinct for this. Hell, there are books written about how to steal other people�s wives; it�s not rocket science. Either way, by throwing himself out there you are then subject to the very powerful brain chemicals (neurotransmitters) that got you hooked on him in the first place. I know you had a great time with him. How could you not? You had a 30 year old virile male courting you, feeding your emotional need of admiration, attention, and flattery and God only knows what else. It must feel great, especially at this juncture in your life. Meanwhile you had me meeting your need for domestic support and family commitment. Life was good. It didn�t matter then that he was lying and it doesn�t matter now that he�s lying. I could tell/show you things that he�s said about you, but I doubt it would make any difference to you in your current state. You know he doesn�t care for you, but you need that fix , that taste of what your life was back in May/June. Before you had the inconvenience of having to take the whole thing underground.

All this is why No Contact means No Contact. I suggest that you have not taken ANY real precautions to avoid him. You and I both know that he will NEVER stop. You purposely leave doors open to him, even after experiencing how persistent he is. This tells me a lot.

You must think I�m really stupid but you�re not fooling anyone with your secret little cell phone. Everyone knows if you want to have untraceable conversations you get a pay-by-the-month unlimited cell. I wouldn�t even be a bit surprised if he was/is paying for it.


You should know that your behavior in the last 8 months has already caused incalculable harm to your children, me, and our relationship. The kids are very confused and upset about you sleeping in the office. They may not tell you but they tell me. They are hurt and scared. Perhaps the need to be separate from me (and your resentment of me being nice to you) is your way of dealing with the feelings of shame and guilt that you feel. Someday you will have to face those feelings head on. I will be there to help you with those feelings when you are ready.

I realize that nothing I say can convince you to pull your head out of your [censored]. This would be like asking a crack addict to �please just stop smoking crack.� I don�t expect you to change anything. You�ve proven over and over again that the only person you�re truly concerned about right now is WW.

However, I�m a human being too and whether you choose to acknowledge it or not, my feelings count; your continued lying (outright and by omission) is very damaging and hurtful.

Limbo,
First let me thank you for your service to our country. You are appreciated.
I started reading your thread and will finish later tonight and respond.

Not sure if we can help each other specifically, I'm certainly no expert. But I look forward to trading some "war stories" with you. It's amazing some of the crap I have to listen to and put up with and it sounds like you have much of the same (dying her hair pink? GMAB).

I'll try to share some things that I've found inspirational from the vets. starting with: In the end you want your kids to have at least one parent with integrity. That one's been keeping me going for a while.

Opt

I think you can post your thread in your profile; I'll let you know if I figure it out. I need to do the same.

My two cents:

Re: letter to WW - WOW!
I hope I don't get to that point, but if I do, I'm going to plagiarize some of what you wrote:)
I'll be looking to see the outcome. Good luck, my friend.

I took my Plan B letter almost word for word from an example that was posted to me. One of the things I think is so terrific about this site is that EVERYONE SHARES and NO ONE WITHHOLDS.

We are all in her about the same thing. This is the strongest support system for marital infidelity I can imagine (or need to, in any event). I would find it a great honor if you were to use my words in the pursuit of winning back your marriage.

Opt,


Please please PLEASE tell me you didn't send that letter???!!!!

Ok, in SAA, when Jon was writting those letters they were LOVE LETTERS!!!!
They were not "education" letters. They were letters expressing his love for Sue and how he wanted their marriage to work.

You are in Plan A, and while in this you act AS IF there is still contact. Yes it's frusterating and heart wrenching BUT if you truly want to save your marriage then you must.....

1. Avoid all Love Busters
2. Meet any and all Emotional Needs
3. NO Expectations

and you do this all AS IF she were still I'm contact. Now, you can let her know that you know she is still in contact. DON'T reveal your sources....... And you do this calmly and as gently as possible.....

And yes, come here and vent away....

(did you send that letter to her???..... I might have to clobber you if you did.... )

STICK TO THE PLANS

not2fun

I thought this was a Plan B letter? I'm confoozed.

LOL! No, NTF, I haven't sent it. Put your club away

Sorry Cat, I should have been more clear what I was up to. Basically, being creative and to some extent letting my mind work overtime. I was actually inspired by a great thread I saw by one of the vets and got carried away.

Anyway, I guess I have the makings of a decent Plan B letter when it comes to that. Thanks for your feedback/editing, I like your ideas.
Linus, take what you need; I hope anything in that letter is helpful to you.

N2F, thanks for keeping me on track. I'll stick with Plan A: 1,2,&3.

Fred - couldn't agree more. I'd be cooked without this board. Perfect example is the 6 posts above.

Hey guys, what do you think?: WW all in a good mood tonight, cooking dinner and leaving her cell out all night (she's been sleeping with it for weeks). I know she only got two texts today (par for the course since the exposure.) She says she feels better cause the depression is "lifting." I suspect the joviality is due to increase in communication. I will check my VAR tomorrow. I'll look for a pattern of behavior for the next few days and check sources best I can.

Am I right?

Opt

I thought Opt was in plan B. That's why I said I hope I don't get to that point. Sorry for the confusion, Opt. I'm still learning!
Hope things get better and you don't have to send the letter at all.

OH NO YOU DON'T......this is SOOO not a Plan B letter. Not even close. The Plan B letter is also a love letter of sorts. This letter is full of DJ's, AO's, and education, all of which is a total loss to the WW. A Plan B letter is short, full of love, and providing a pathway back to the M for the WW......if and when it comes time for that Steve and us will help you with that......usually most follow the letter in SAA.

Now, I think that letter is a good journaling tool for you. I often wrote WH letters in my Plan A, just to get the frusteration out of my system so I wouldn't Love Bust. I also made LOTS of lists.....reasons why I was angry at WH, why I was angry with myself, what I needed in a marriage. It was very theariputic for me.....so go ahead and journal away. But do so with the intention of NOT giving them to WW.


Yes, you are right. Unfortunately. But keep up with your Plan anyway.....which BTW, what are you doing to meet your WW EN'S?....what are your plans for this weekend to incorporate meeting those EN'S???....Keep us posted on what you are doing because we can keep you accountable your Plan.....

not2fun

Thanks N2F,
I've been reading some threads of folks who are in Plan B (or heading that way) since last night, and yes, now I see that my letter is of no real use for planA/B etc. It did help me solidify in my own mind some material I had read in other threads.

I'm trying to "recon" as Limbo puts it. Not having that great of luck, but knowing I have a plan and intend to stick to it eases my frustration and anxiety (things don't seem quite as urgent because I feel more in control).

I have been meeting what needs I can. I'm going to stop on the way home and get her a little something and put a nice note on it "hope you had a nice week" or something like that. I cut her a grapefruit last night and gave her a ride to work on Wednesday.

NO LB's (very confident with that one).

Bizarre that our marriage has come to this. 9 months ago people held us up as the most married couple in town.

opt

That's exactly how folks saw us as a married couple.

One of my good friends was so distraught when he heard the news. He told me that he considered us "the hope" of our local community (showing others how good life can get after you've been down).

She has chosen to abandon all the friends and neighbors, as well as her kids, work relations and any semblance of respect others may have had for her.

All to shack up with a married man. And she doesn't realize that what he did with her he will have no compunction to do TO her...

Fred! So glad to hear from you! I finished reading your entire thread around 4pm (should have been working, LOL) and it ended at 12/1. I got very worried about you. Glad to see you're all in one piece. I'm sure you'll update soon. Just wanted to let you know I was thinking of you and thanks for your thoughts above.
opt

EDIT TO ADD: ps - It looks like you have another thread "new to MB" I'll check that out tonight.
[ MORE EDIT TO ADD: yeah, I was reading your "Plan B Letter" thread.

Sorry... I geezed, and started three threads. When I thought one had played out, I started another. And another. New to MB was the first, Plan B (drafts) and What to tell the neighbors are all mine. Links in my sig:

Hey folks, over the course of the last 10 days or so I have been pretty diligent with recon efforts. I have found very little of import. I am becoming convinced (presently and for now) that WW is not returning communication with OM (I realize HIS efforts to reach her are a problem, and this will be addressed, possibly in plan B). I do know that she is still wayward and foggy by the things she says. And she did go out with a friend the other night where I know she was talking to a recently divorced guy (I'm plan Aing - and trying not to freak out about this).

This thought has occurred to me: What if I never find anything substantial in my efforts to discover any further A? What if she never rekindles the original EA or develops a new one? (I expect if left to her own and with enough time, either WOULD occur).

I was planning to drop into plan B (with much guidance from folks here and Steve, who I'm hoping to talk to again this week) in early January. Can I plan B her on the grounds that she's acting like a school girl in heat?

At this point it appears her aim is simply to find a place to land when she walks away from her family, I really don't feel she has anything substantial. So the plan B 'path back home' would have to be somewhat different than a traditional Jon & Sue (from SAA) type: "...meet the conditions of: stop going out." (At this point I don't even have solid evidence there's anything to worry about except my gut instinct and her pattern of behavior) Can you plan B on that?

Does this sound right?
My concern is how long can I continue plan A? The w/e's are tough b/c I know what she's going to do. Since she's also a SAHM (mostly) I'm sick most of the day thinking about what access she has to her little fantasy world. She's w/d'ing love units when she talks about needing "space" and when she goes out. I've really only been in plan A for a couple of weeks (if you start counting when I actually started doing it correctly) and I can go for a while, but...have these questions in my mind. I'm afraid if I plan A too long, I might be tempted to throw in the towel b/c she will have LB'd me into apathetic oblivion. Any help would be appreciated.

Optimism

I'm no expert, but I've read here that sometimes people set a REAL, hard date, at which point they have to reassess things. And maybe set aside some questions that you force yourself to answer at that point - if you answer yes, you stick around some more, if you answer no, you go ahead and go to Plan B. Does that make sense? It kind of takes some of the control out of your hands, and gives you some relief.

Opt....

I bumped up an old thread for you..(i can't do that linky thing.....too much work for a computer illiterate like me...).

Anyway, its titled..."IT'S OVER SHE'S STAYING TO WORK ON OUR MARRIAGE"....by a great guy, TOOMUCHTOOSOON. He and I got here around the same time when we were dealing with our spouse's A's. Anyway, you could learn a lot from it....

not2fun