So how did you reply to this?

I mean I wanted to have children with the gal down the street. Her name was Connie and we were like 11. We both moved from the neighborhood when I was 12.

I wanted to visit China too....Never did that either.

I don't think you should have to walk on egg shells the rest of your life, L4. That is no way to live a life.

But let me ask you this...

How much time did you spend together as UA time in the past week?

Sitting across the table eating dinner only counts toward the total if it was a romantic dinner for two.

What did you actually do this week to meet his top ENs?

Did you have any Love Busters of your own? Keep in mind that AOs and DJs aren't the only Love Busters.

My point about the pattern was not having to do with avoiding serious discussion or anything along those lines. What I wanted was a look at whether or not you can see a pattern to the way he reacts negatively to something you do. If so, what about what you are doing could be something that could be or needs to be modified in some way.

Love Busters fall into 6 categories. Some of them are really easy to identify, especially in others but less so in ourselves. Angry Outbursts are easy to spot. Selfish Demands can be more subtle. Disrespectful Judgments can be even harder to see, especially in our own behavior. Independent Behavior is so subtle some times that we do it and think we aren't even after we examine it. Dishonesty can be an issue if we tend to protect ourselves by keeping things from each other. Even those little things, like our emotional state or our dissatisfaction with something.

Then we have Annoying Habits...

Trimming your toenails in the living room...or even the dining room.

Leaving your socks on the floor beside the hamper.

Interrupting what your spouse is doing to tell a joke.

Dropping a steak knife into the bottom of the sink to be covered over by other dishes and only discovered when it modifies your finger prints.

Taking the last cup of coffee in the morning, taking two sips and then letting the rest sit around to get cold and never getting back to actually drinking it.

Falling asleep on the sofa during the television program our spouse has been waiting for all week and snoring through the serious part...

Working late three nights in a row.

Putting off a project or event originally planned in favor of something else that just came up (could be IB as well)

What I'm having a hard time getting hold of is if you are meeting his ENs and avoiding Love Busters...Why is he such an anomaly?

Mark

I'm here, L4, mostly lurking and reading. It was nice of you to ask about me.

I'm really sorry to read of the downswing in your situation. The loss of hope in the tone of your recent posts made me sad. I hope you can hang in there and keep up the recovery effort, as difficult as it is.

Your husband is hurting and I can relate to him in so many ways, though I have suffered through much less than he did. When I read your description of the things he says and does, I can feel what he feels and what he is thinking down to my bones. Not saying he's right to hurt you or lovebust. He shouldn't. But I know why he does it.

I don't post much anymore. It got unhealthy for me, plus, I had my teeth kicked in one too many times. I've let Dr. Harley take over the teeth-kicking duties over on the private weekend forum, plus we have our follow-up coach for help. It has been a godsend to be able to pick up the phone and get help to get through a crisis.

I will pray that your husband will somehow agree to join you in working MB, and maybe even attend a weekend. I know that sounds impossible right now. But four months ago I wrote on my now-lost thread that my wife would not embrace MB and would not consider going to a weekend. But it happened. As you may remember, she first came here to the forum and left in a huff several times. Then with encouragement from so many, she was convinced to go to the weekend.

You're what, less than a year from when you confessed your affair and started to try to recover? Not sure if you know our time line, but MrsOttert (now "peacelily", BTW) didn't come here to read or post until 1 year and 8 months after my discovery of her emails to the ex-boyfriend. Maybe you can gain from that fact enough hope to go another hour, another day, another week, another month?

We went to the weekend, met Dr. Harley and Joyce, as well as Steve and the MB staff. It was emotionally gut-wrenching, with many tense moments. We are about a month into the courses and the follow-up program. It's been up and down, with lots of triggers and meltdowns. We actually quit last week and did nothing but go back into our corners. Even today, we're on the fence. Some days I think the weekend was a waste of time and money. Other days I feel hopeful.

I don't have much to add that would help you right now. As you know and has been said, you're in good hands with the crew helping you on your thread. It doesn't get much better than what you're getting.

sorry for the tj L4 but just want to say hi Ottert.

I think about you and your W often and I wish only the very best for you both in your recovery.

I'm so glad to hear you went on the weekend. I'm sure things are raw right now but I'm sure it'll get better with time.

Good to hear from you.

tj over.

Hello Looking4,

Just wanted to wish you a Happy Thanksgiving and hope you have a great time with your family!

I've been following along and you, as usual, are getting some great insight from everyone.

I have mixed feelings on the post...

I thought the main point, which is mutual forgiveness, of not only you for your H but also of yourself, was essential for you to be able to move forward in whichever direction your M gravitates to.

I know for Mrs.Flint and I when I began to forgive her EVERYDAY, for whatever had transpired previously, she began to change. She stopped ACTING like what I was accusing her of either verbally or in thought.

She began to ACT like someone who had been given her Life back.

And she began to forgive ME each day also.

And I began to act like a forgiven person also.

It was a new start for both of us.

You are very special to both Mrs.Flint and I and we have great hope that your M will start to come around for you.

Mrs.Flint made an observation that I think you might be interested in...

She said do you know the reason that Mr.L4 said those hurtful things just when you thought you were getting really close?

Because he DID start to feel love for you and it scares him...

Right now he uses them to avoid having to deal with his love for you...

and to test you...

to see if he can push you away...

Hold on L4.

Whether it's 8 seconds or a lifetime...

Just hold on.

God bless.

Jim

Okay thread jack, well not really, sort of, but this goes out to L4 too, so not really.

I hope that everyone is safe in their travels and all you Americans have a wonderful Thanksgiving with your families.




:gobble:

"Where there is a will there is a way"

These old sayings are around for a reason. Mr L4 is also still around for a reason. When he's had enough he might just consider it.


Wouldn't it just be wonderful and easy if just going to the weekend solved all the issues in the marriage.

But, there are big big problems in a marriage when an A occurs. It doesn't resolve itself quickly. It is an unwinding.

For some reason people don't like to change even though they say they are open to it. It's like folks need to hit bottom. And only then do things change.

And, when you hit bottom - who knows when - depends on how stubborn the two of you are - the follow up program is there. Even when you want to give up they will still be there. They will be there as long as you need them.

And in some way, for many of us who have gone through this - that is what we are looking for.

I've had minutes here and there since my last post -- just enough time to read but not to respond or ask further questions. Just letting you know I'm still here, just swamped. Am in D.C. for my training week and it's ever-so-packed. Was up working 'till 3am, up at 6am.

As I was leaving yesterday at 4:30am, H drowsily said, "I'll miss you." Not "We'll miss you," like he usually says. Wonder if he was aware of the pronoun he used. (I hope so.)

Thanksgiving was okay, hard, fine, nice. Ran the gamut.

I do have much to be thankful for, including those of you with me here. And I will get back to you eventually (can't say when) with more specific answers.

Gotta do dinner. Smiles, everyone. Smiles...

Hello my friend-

Hope all is going well for you in the "other" Washington.

Keep in touch.

Miss you-

BTW-the cross has been bright for the past few days...

L4:

I hope your training in DC is going well.

As jam-packed as it is, I hope, more so than anything else, you are keeping in contact with your husband.

Little texts, emails, phone calls, post cards, etc.

If not, when you get back? Its gonna be ugly.

Just a thought.

I understand if you don't have time for MB. Make time for your H.

At least its sunny today.

LG

L4 ~

I just wanted you to know that I am thinking and praying for you and for your H. I was just cathing up on your post and your journey and when I read the post about acting a different way when you feel forgiveness from H and yourself... I agree. I know when I feel the forgiveness from H and actually let myself feel forgiveness towards self, I like who I am.

Anyway, can't wait to read your next post and hope D.C. treats you well!

L4

The holidays always add to an already hectic schedule. Don't forget to take of yourself too L4. I like the "I" vs "We."

I like the idea that his guard was down while he was so drowsy, so he said what he really felt instead of the "on guard" thing he would have said. Like it was a glimpse into his heart of hearts.

Me too!

Nice to hear this from someone who has been in your sandals!

Reading along L4 and thinking of you.

Nice moment from hubby too. That's encouraging.

I turned my head away from him as the tears were immediate. I waited about 30 seconds then told him about how happy I am that my friend is able to have children. That is when he made the comment about asking my friend to call him in 13 - 14 years so he could tell them how "crappy marriage can be." It was then I got up and went to the bathroom.

Little. We've spent little UA time together recently. The jobs are the big reason, as well as child commitments and family commitments.

The last time we had dinner was good. Then after-dinner drinks was when he made the comments about the kids and crappy M. UA has always been our weak spot. I've been trying to make myself available as much as I can. Sometimes he accepts it, sometimes our kid commitments get in the way, the previous week the funeral and my parent's health got in the way, and him wanting to spend time with his friend and his family prevented our time together.

I worked-out every morning but one and have lost weight. Had SF. Made myself available for conversation and then stayed up late to work so that the money that he likes keeps coming in. Cleaned the kitchen almost every night and kept the laundry clean. Vacuumed. Cleaned the guestroom for his cousin. Took care of the kids. Packed up everything for the holiday. Kept in touch with him from work via IM and phone. Participated without hesitation in an intimate IM conversation when he reached out in a suggestive way. Told him how handsome he looks and how much I like being in his arms. Asked him how work is going. Made advance dinners so he could have meals despite me doing Jenny Craig and/or getting home a bit later. Touched him every night in bed. Encouraged him to go for a motorcycle ride. Told him I love him.

Not that I'm aware of, but that doesn't mean that I didn't. I was very upset that he didn't want to spend more time with my family from out of town and didn't invite me to be with his family after Thanksgiving, but I didn't AO or bring up SDs. I'm sure I fell short and did something wrong, but I honestly can't name what that might be at this moment. I'm not naive and know I'm not perfect. It's been a couple of weeks and nothing stands out.

This is part of the point, Mark. I don't know. He says I'm changed and doing "everything right". I wouldn't be surprised if that's not true, but who am I to disagree when I don't know? He's pretty quiet and doesn't talk with me much at all about his feelings or our M or the A or our future unless I bring it up and quite frankly, I don't like doing that because the results usually don't provoke encouraging feelings.

I know I have my problems. I don't put in all the receipts into Quicken as quickly as I need to. I forget about noting an occasional online purchase and this drives H nuts. I'm sure I have annoying habits but H doesn't talk with me much about what annoys him. And then out of the blue (in my opinion --- perhaps I'm missing the clues), he'll make a sarcastic comment or get angry.

I am trying to bring in the money for my perceived EN of his which is FS. I am O&H except when it comes to the rare trigger or my sadness for our M as I've mentioned here. My AOs are pretty much nil. DJs are something I don't do -- very very very rarely to my H or anyone else. I am very aware of IBs as that was my most consistent LB so I do not consciously do those. I ask my H about virtually everything I and we do. SDs are non-existent.

My opinion is because he holds grudges (he admits this) and he likes to be in control. He is a master of passive-aggressive behavior. Because so much has been out of his control throughout his life -- parent's divorce, sister's death, brother's trouble, my cheating -- whatever he can possibly control, he grabs onto with both hands.

H is nicer to me. I feel I am meeting his ENs. But I also feel he wants to keep me on guard -- on my toes so that I don't ever hurt him again. I think I am meeting his ENs and my LBs are minimal if not mostly non-existent. But... I had an A and H has been hurt so much by so many that I think he feels he can't be vulnerable to me or anyone else ever again. I want him to be to me and to expose himself to me -- to trust me again with his feelings. And I understand that this may never happen.

Nice to hear from you ottert. I'm sorry it's not going as well as you hope, but you're still at it and I think this is positive. Please keep us posted as many here are thinking of you.

Jim - Thank you for your kind words. You and Mrs. Flint mean much to me too. The fact that you've been with me throughout this whole process has been invaluable and heartfelt. This comment from you: "I know for Mrs.Flint and I when I began to forgive her EVERYDAY, for whatever had transpired previously, she began to change. She stopped ACTING like what I was accusing her of either verbally or in thought," might have something to do with it. You forgave her as much as she forgave you. I have forgiven him thanks to the insight the board, friends, and God have given me. Still working on forgiving myself. H has said he hasn't and likely never will forgive me.

Thanks for the Thanksgiving wish, V. I do have much to be thankful for.

You can t/j me anytime, Sere.

TJD, I am pretty stubborn.

JT - I'm smiling in your direction. The moon here in the other Washington has been amazing. Not quite the cross, but glorious nonetheless.

LG - I've IMed and have called H every day that I've been gone and have sent a few emails. He's seemed okay every day but today. Pretty short with me during our conversation today and our IM was also quick. But he could simply be tired. It's been a long, busy week for him. Only two more days.

SO nice to see you, Lindz. I hope today is better then yesterday. Your presence makes me think you have an update so I'll check your thread.

Ladies... I too think "I" was better then "we". I'm holding onto the little things like that -- those little victories.



D.C.'s been very much about work -- days and evenings. We got out to see the monuments on a tour last night in the pouring rain, otherwise it's been work, dinner, work, sleep, breakfast, work, dinner, work, sleep, etc.

I can't wait to get home Saturday afternoon. Too bad H has to leave Monday morning for a 4-day business trip.

Gotta sleep. Will check in again when I can.

L4,

I want you to take a serious look at the relationship between two things.

1) The amount of time you guys spend together, not being "productive" but being Mr and Mrs L4, purely recreational, not keeping up defenses and being vulnerable to each other.

2) The connectedness you feel toward your husband. I think this is usually manifested by what you perceive his mood to be. Though you always recognize a trend or problem in his actions, I am going to venture that the same thing takes place in your but you don't always see it. For you it is more of a feeling of uneasiness when together. For him it comes out in ways you can identify easily.

My point is that when you have no time together, when there is little to no UA time, his mood grows sour rapidly and your defensiveness does as well. This is a sign of an empty Love Bank. The balance has fallen to too low to matter and now any feelings of love toward each other are more of a loan than a balance. Good feelings toward being together falls into the category more of expectations of things to come that things that already came.

This is because when you are not spending UA time together, you are NOT meeting each others top ENs. You just simply are not doing it. You can't do it when you are apart (not very easily) or working on different things or even the same project but under the stress of a deadline of any kind.

Throw into the mix sadness that needs comforting, and not getting it because of "life" and any other tiny little thing that comes along starts to add to the pile. Before long, you can be in bed together and be a million miles apart. When you're that disconnected, a half hour over breakfast or a three line each IM is going to do almost nothing to bring you closer. All you guys ever have time for is laying out grievances. He is sure to let you know his and then you bottle it up until you get here to vent.

One of the reasons folks have such a hard time with their marriage is that the marriage is relegated to left over status. It isn't a real priority, so time for it doesn't rank very high on their list of priorities.

The real problem with spending time together is that you don't really want to be together. And you don't want to be together because you aren't really in love with each other. You aren't in love with each other because you haven't been making each other happy when together and once the cycle begins you become content to pass each other in the hallway while getting ready to begin your day.

BTDT...

What it takes is to force yourselves to be available to each other at first. Once you get comfortable being together again things can get easier, but any extended term of separation can reset everything to where it started.

And here's the deal, unless the marriage is important enough to change what you do in order to save it, nothing is ever really going to change any way...

In other words, working longer and longer hours to make more and more money to pay for more and more stuff that sits with other stuff that isn't being used eventually turning into piles and piles of your stuff and his stuff that obliterate the stuff that should be yours AND his together seems like a normal way of life.

Again...BTDT...

So the Dr Phil question needs to be asked, "How's that workin' for ya"

Not saying "Quit your job."
Not saying "He quits his job."

Not asking "What's he going to do?"
Not asking "When is the schedule going to settle down?" (The answer is that things will change when one or both of you decide to change it and not one second before then nor one minute after either)

You've been gone all week. Things were pretty good or at least hopeful on Monday, status quo by Tuesday, under stress by Thursday, and pretty much trash by today. You are now looking forward to returning home, but part of you dreads the thought. Because you KNOW things are not going to be good when you get there. You also know that the fact that you have been gone is the reason things won't be good when you get there.

And then next Monday, HE leaves for another week apart. What are your Love Bank balances going to look like by Christmas?

L4, if this is the way things were pre-A, I am wondering what is actually different now. Your vulnerability, and HIS vulnerability to anyone who comes along and can spend more than an hour in the same room without having to dash out to take care of something is so obvious under this kind of circumstances.

Think back for a second about your low points in this process. Yes I know they all seem to come on the heels of something he said that was hurtful. But consider what the circumstances surrounding that time were. Your trip to Iceland, while a once in a lifetime type of deal, how did that seem to affect him, leading up to the trip and following your return? Numerous business and training trips for each of you, ask the same questions. How did he act leading up to departure and immediately following return.

Look for a pattern here. (I started to describe it but want you to find it)

When you are apart for a week, you have to find a way to be together while you are apart. You can't make it up when you get back together. Time lost is LOST...It's GONE...It cannot be recovered...

I'm sure you've heard the saying about how no one ever looked back on their life from their death bed and said "Gee, I sure wished I had worked more and not spent so much time with the people I loved..."

We work because the house is worth a lot. The car is worth a lot when we get it but not worth much when we get rid of it. The braces the kids need are worth a lot and so are the books they need in order to go to school. Their social experiences with all of their friends are worth a lot more than money and the food we enjoy so much is worth more and more every day.

So the question is...

What's the marriage worth?

You sacrifice for your job. You sacrifice for your kids. You sacrifice for these short term gain (in many instances) types of goals... and even long term ones...

I'm not saying to sacrifice for the marriage...I'm saying the marriage is what is being sacrificed for all this other stuff.

Same thing was happening at our house.

BTDT.

I spent 160 nights in one city in one year and traveled to other places that year. Repairing the damage done to our marriage didn't even begin for many years after that time. It wasn't until we started using this MB stuff that we really started to see any real improvement. Because we replaced my traveling for working overtime and both of us working, then with my fishing and her horseback riding and my stuff at church and her stuff at church...She had piles of stuff. I had piles of stuff. It buried the pile that was supposed to have been our stuff until we couldn't even see the pile any more...

All because the other piles had grown up to be bigger than the one that meant the most, or should have.

Without UA time, you can't meet ENs. Without meeting ENs enough you have to be perfect in the Love Buster department. Once you have slipped from Conflict into Withdrawal, you can't negotiate using POJA because you don't want anything from each other any way. Being honest is pretty much wasted because honestly, you don't care at the moment...Care, Protection, Honesty and Time...

The first three only matter because of the last. Of the four, the greatest is Time...

Looky there, L4. You got my one serious post of the morning...

Mark

It must be my lucky day.

I'm sitting in the back of a conference room, in a meeting that I don't need to be in so I'm reading MB and IMing H. Can't respond in full now but will ponder and get back when I can.

Thank you very much, Mark. I hope you have a great day.

Hi L4

When I started reading this, I thought maybe I'd gone to the wrong thread and I'd clicked on mine instead of yours.




It is tough to give up some of the things that you think you need for an M that you're not sure whether it is worth it. For me aswell - part of my drive to work more hours was to make sure I was more financially dependant and I think J was kind of content for me to be more financially independant too if we couldn't get this thing to work.

My choices were made for me - my hours got cut and I haven't found anything more lucrative. More time available for M, and although we've had a tough week, it is easier to brush off than it was 6 months ago.

I think it's all about taking a chance. We think we do want our M but do we really want to sacrifice ourselves to become a new self with a new M? And sometimes it's easier to live with the misery we know than to take a chance.

I'm waffling, but reading this made me think about some of the choices I tried to make and why.


love ya L4