Have you ever studied about toxic shame? It kind of sounds to me like she may a victim of toxic shame. Here's a brief synopsis:
Abuse creates toxic shame - the feeling of being flawed and diminished and never measuring up. Toxic shame feels much worse than guilt. With guilt, you've done something wrong; but you can repair that - you can do something about it. With toxic shame there's something wrong with you and there's nothing you can do about it; you are inadequate and defective. Toxic shame is the core of the wounded child.

I was never abused in the real sense of abuse, but rather in the sense of being brought up in a dysfunctional family. I grew up believing I was flawed; therefore, my entire life's goal was to keep people from finding out. So, if a person asked me if, say, my dog pooped in their yard, my first instinct would be to lie, because I'd 'know' that if I admitted it, they'd get the neighbors together and run me out of the neighborhood.

See how skewed that is?

It's entirely possible that, no matter how wonderful you are - in fact, maybe even because of how wonderful you are (thus she really really doesn't deserve you) - she will hold back because she feels, deep down, she will never be able to deserve you. It may be that you have to reach that wounded soul inside her and convince it she can be safe with you. So there may be a subtle underlying feeling that something is wrong, recovery isn't quite right, but you don't know why. That what she does doesn't quite hit the mark for you; which would be because she's holding something in reserve.

Worth a try. Healing The Shame That Binds You by Bradshaw was life-altering for me.

catperson, you do understand that he has the right to leave the marriage? And if he finds he cannot overcome his resentment, he would be right to move on. He is not bound by that decision. This is not about marriage at all costs. Telling him to just suck it up will not help him overcome his resentment.

rc2009, there seems to be a disconnect going on here that will lead to increased resentment if it is not properly approached. If your W does not tell you the WHOLE TRUTH about her affairs, you won't recover. It will FEED AND FUEL your resentment and can lead to physical problems. I wonder if Steve understands that your questions about the affair have not been FULLY AND COMPLETELY ANSWERED?

Dr Harley addresses this in his newsletter Requirements for Recovery. It is written by a woman whose H withheld key details from her. Not only was she resentful, she was having nightmares. The full truth has to come out before recovery takes place and trust restored. You can't rebuild trust if she is keeping secrets from you that only she and the OM are privy to.

check this out Requiremnts for Recovery

And I still stand by my statement that you need to give this time. I was extremely RESENTFUL for the first 2 years until a dear friend of mine said to me "Mel, now you are just looking for grievances." I was in the habit of being angry so I began to look for new things to be angry about. I am not saying you are there now, but you may overcome this resentment, rc2009. Please wait this out. But don't let anyone tell you htat you are STUCK no matter what. You ain't! This is not the marriage at all costs site. Dr. Harley fully supports anyone who decides they don't WANT to try, for WHATEVER REASON. There is no shame in moving on.

Well aware of that, Mel. In fact, that's my point. He DID choose to stay. If he can't find a way to deal with the resentment, perhaps it's not the right choice for him. The part that is on him is to find a way that HE can live with it.

And he may not be able to do that, though. That is something he needs to consider. He is not beholden to his choice to stay if it turns out his resentment is too great. Resentment is often our emotions warning us something is very wrong and it is time to move on. If he can't overcome that, he will have some hard choices to make.

Which is what I said.

good.

I have identified this as one of two problems that I am having.




You have voiced this in several ways. I consider it extemely good advice.

In the very early spring, I watched a dvd series that Jeff Van Vonderen presented that was produced in the early to late 80's.(based on how he was dressed) Great series, unfortunately this was shortly after D-Day and I had a hard time focusing. I did bring it home and watched a few segments. W has told me several times that she can't stand to disappoint people. Telling them where she falls short is in that category.



I am not sure if I have succeeded, but I have worked hard to build a safe environment for her to talk and share with me. Only on very rare occasions have I reacted, and even then it was much later than the conversation

I did forget to mention that Steve said if I had any additional questions to write them down, then give them to him to decide if they were relevant to healing. I believe the purpose of this is to eliminate the instant gratification that comes from asking a question and getting an immediate response.



I actually have a fear of moving on. Especially before I have fully evaluated my marriage. That's the point of the discussion that I started; what criteria do you use as opposed to the raw emotions.

Mel, I don't feel stuck. Confused yes.

Several times I have seen the statistic that only 3% of marriages from affairs survive. Does anyone know where this is quoted from?

You must have heard a statistic about affairs, because only 3-5% of AFFAIRS survive. 65% of marriages survive after an affair and about 22% really recover and thrive.

rc,

The number of 3% affairs survive and lead to successful marriages. It is very unlikely that affair partners actually marry and when they do few of those marriages survive.

As Mel said, your chances of your marriage surviving this are high. Actually as high as you and your W want them to be. It is your call. What is offered here are the tools to build a very good and rewarding marriage, and IF both parties learn, grow and use tools such as found here, the marriages are often very good...and long term.

God Bless,

JL

I believe every BS has a fear of moving on - I know I did. It's taken two years to R my M. One decision I made when I decided to move on - was to not hold back in the M anymore. I believed if I gave it my all and my FWH chose to do something stupid again - I could walk away knowing I did everything within my power to have a great M. I could walk away without guilt, shame, resentment or fear.

Gg

Good thought GG. I have noticed that the more indecisive I am, the harder it is to invest in my wife.

Saturday night I talked to my FWW about her deceit and dishonesty over the last 13 years. I explained how hard to believe her story was complete and parts of her story were just unbelievable.

First, I explained her pattern. Ten years ago I ask if there was an A. No, no, no, and then in January well yes there was. Ten years ago I ask her about a trip she took the first weekend we separated. I also ask her starting in January. It was a GF, GF, GF, and then in about August, well I went with OM. She admits she doesn�t want to talk about A.

When Steve had her explain what happened during the A, she read from 1� handwritten note. It took about 3 minutes.

I know there have been lots of details left out of her story. On Saturday, I explained that two of her explanations bother me. She has told me that the A ended during our separation. She has also told me that she decided a 100 times to end it, but there was always a relapse. It has amazed me the similar behavior patterns of all WS. They continued to work together for another 2 years. I am finding it difficult to believe it ended as she said based on the other stories I read on the forum.

The other conspicuous place that information is missing is the sex. Before Steve told her to tell what happened, I had asked about a few details. Things she had suggested that seemed out of character for her. She confirmed they came from the A. All other times the explanation has been �we went back to his apartment to have sex.�

My main problem is the feeling of her dishonesty.

At the end of our conversation she made this comment: �I am overwhelmed that this big thing happened. I have admitted to the A. I have admitted to lying about it. We had oral sex. I thought he loved me. I thought I loved him. And all you can think about is the sex.�

First, I told her I thought her comment was a disrespectful judgment. Second, I told her that I felt she was trying to shame me from asking about details of the A. Then I suggested she post her comment of the forum and see what other BS and WS thought.

She will not post, but I am asking you. Post your comment as if it was to her and I will share it with her.

Meaning:
Quit harassing me. I've done enough penance. I'm not going to go any deeper into why I can lie so easily or why my morals are so loose that I don't protect the person I promised to protect and choose my own self-satisfaction even at your expense. Don't ask me to own up to this; I don't want to look that bad.

The above seems right to me. Essentially, what I glean from your WW's responses and her advocacy for letting this go, is that she does not have a true appreciation of the gravity of this type of abuse/betrayal and she may have led the type of life where she was often let off the hook for things like this. Perhaps her family of origin really never held her accountable for things growing up. I am not sure.
But, it is clear that she does not think this was any big deal and she does not feel that she has the responsibility for fixing this.
It truly says a lot about a person, this unwillingness to accept consequences. It sends a clear message that she does not really care much about the pain she has caused you. It also shows that she is lazy and unwilling to undertake the hard, hard work to recover a marriage.
I'd say, based on what you describe, that she does not really love you or care that much about you.

I agree with pretty much everything Zelmo says - except the last sentence. IMO, she loves you, but her view of love is skewed. She thinks keeping details of her A from you is protecting you, but she's wrong (and an added 'bonus' to avoiding details is that the WS thinks they're getting off the hook and won't have to face the shame of what they've done. This ultimately doesn't serve anyone, or the M.) Honesty gives ultimate protection to a M, not a pea soup of distorted truths and hidden facts.

Look, rc. Have your WW read this, from another betrayed spouse:

rc's WW, what you have done to your DH is an emotional crime. Picture the two of you, standing on a sidewalk watching the traffic go by as you wait to cross. Suddenly you shove your H into the path of a speeding bus. Can you imagine what this would do to your H? That someone he trusted would so completely harm him in such a way? You did the same thing. You shoved him, trusting and unsuspecting, into the path of the A you conducted. Don't expect him to get up and dust himself off, claiming everything's okay. It is very much NOT okay.

And it doesn't matter how long ago your A was. In his mind it JUST HAPPENED. You have had years to deal with it and put it into its place in your reality. rc has not. His healing has just begun. It is part of your compensation to him to supply him with whatever information he needs in order to put the A into its proper place in his reality. Refusing to answer his questions is like refusing to call 911 after you shoved him in front of the bus.

Don't do the duck and weave, Mrs. rc. Woman up and give your H whatever info he needs in order to heal, regardless of how trivial you may think it is. It could be as simple as wondering what color underwear you were wearing during a given encounter. If you have the answer, GIVE IT TO HIM. It's important to HIM. And it's all about him right now, not you, if you want your M to completely heal.

Maritalbliss, I think you are on the mark. I do believe she loves me and she tells me that she tries to protect me from certain details. The shame plays a part also. I got a copy of Jeff VanVonderan's "Wounded by Shame, Saved by Grace" and we have started watching it. I believe that it is part of this shame that prevents her from believing that I can forgive her.

I am still interested in additional viewpoints from WS's.