oh ST that is not good

do you take him seriously?

i am glad you made that IC appointment.

no, not at all. I've walked away now. I'm at my sisters (she's out, I have a key)

He says we have no hope we might as well call the solicitor, It's never going to work, i thought we'd make it to xmas etc etc

I asaid if you want a d , you call the solicitor. THat is not what I'm working towards. HE asked me to not go to band tonight so that we could dsicuss it, I said no problem.

He then said, no I wouldn't want you to miss your precious band come and talk to me now. I said that we would be bale to give it a better discussion later but he insisted.

When we walked down the bedroom and I kept looking over my shoulder he mocked me and when I asked him to come into the room and away form the door he laughed at me.

I told him I didn't like being laughed at. I was anxious and wanted to make sure I had access ot the door.

I told him that I needed to remove myself from him and walked out - he begged me to stay and then when I made it clear that I wasn't he told me not to come back.

DS is there with him and a friends daughter.

My H always did that, too. If I dared say anything that suggested that HE might be doing something wrong, out with the "you only want me for money" (yeah, and your $80,000 of debt), or "I should have just stayed at work since no one wants me here" or "maybe I should just go drive my car off a bridge; THEN you'll be happy."

{{ST}}}

You realize that is manipulation to get what he wants (you to not criticize him), right? The best thing to do with manipulation is ignore it. If nothing else, get him a business card from a psychiatrist and hand it to him the next time he says that.

Is there someone on his course he was doing you can talk to about this? It seems like he is deliberately sabotarging all the good work he was doing learning how to communicate effectivly.

BTW, if he talks D and your not interested, just say what princess meggy told me to say to Flick... "I dont do D honey, you wanna coffee?"

There isn't anyone on his course I can talk to about this.

It's hard work to keep it going, to keep being positive. I'd just like to hide in a corner. But then you all know about that.

My boundaries obviously aren't well protected because I feel drained and angry and sad and anxious and just plain not sure.

He allowed dd to have th choc from her advent calendar before she was ready for school this morning - a rule that he will no doubt deny knowing about despite the fact that he was here yesterday when it was being enforced and despite the act that we spent so much time trying to find ds' before we left for school.

I didn't want to come home last night, I wanted to keep driving.

I love my children.

oh and a few days ago, when thinks weren't so doom and gloom we were discusiing whther we could afford a form of MB program AND a dog and that we would need to prioritise - of course MB study was part of the return to home conditions.

Last night he says he's not wasting his money on MB, because it won't work,and then he said, not I agreed to do it, so I will and then added "I'll make sure it doesn't work".

I thik that because I brought the course up he feels that it is a criticism that what we are doing isn't good enough. Well, we could be doing more and I think following the program will help. But more than that - this was a condition of his return which he agreed to.

SO - he follows through with deliberate intention of messing it up, or we don't do it.

He wants to leave doesn't he?

Bloody he!! ST. What's been going on?

I've been in self imposed exile for a week and expected to come back to read of more positive news from you. I'm so sorry to read of this downturn. Please don't be too disheartened and remember we're all on our own rollercoaster rides.

I agree with the others, J is reverting to old behaviour and is trying to manipulate you. He's probably not doing it deliberately but may be in a bad place emotionally. I'm not making excuses for him but changing an ingrained behaviour pattern that has always yielded results is difficult. Doing this work in a nurturing and positive environment is hard, but doing it under pressure in an environment where you know your every word and action is being judged is near impossible.

I know you are not judging him too harshly ST and I know that you are being supportive of you as a couple by trying to rebuild. It is completely right that you remove yourself from him if you feel that he is becoming abusive or you feel the situation has the potential to explode. J will learn what you are willing and unwilling to live with and he needs to learn that.

It will remain difficult for him to vent his feelings adequately though as he is so used to getting you to see or understand his pain by acting out. He still has to learn other methods and that takes time.

How was last Christmas ST? I know your D-Day was in the New Year but was Christmas filled with tension? Is the build up to this Christmas and D-Day anniversary a potential trigger for him?

Add to that your "break in NC type incident" and your total hoonesty with J about your feelings upon seeing the pics of OM and you've got a recipe for the type of incident you're going through. You know me ST and you know my need for O&H but if BB said to me that he had seem OW and had remembered anything from that period fondly, I think I may have stuggled to maintain the "safe place for O&H discussion". Such honesty, even when vital is very hard to take.

I'll be honest with you ST and say that it would wipe me out to hear that BB missed his conversations with OW, even if he acknowledged that as being "mental".

I think you have a fine line to walk ST as a former WS coming up to D-Day anniversary with DV in the background. It's fairly well acknowledged here that the antiversary period is very difficult for the BS and the WS has to step up the support and care during this period. I understand the difficulty for you with this when J has so much work to do on himself and you are asserting your boundaries.

I am not an "angry" type person ST but I struggled with containing my anger during mine and BB's antiversary period. My resentment was building a plenty and even though I mostly kept a lid on the anger, there was no way that BB could have been unaware of my struggles.

He got us through that difficult period by being an absolute star. Loving, supportive, patient and resolute in his love for me.

I hope Mark can come along to offer advice in being these things to J whilst still asserting your boundaries about his anger and manipulation and acknowledging that you should never be in fear of him.

I see all the difficulties but I'm not wise enough to know how to advise you on a course of action to get through this. How about a session with Steve to ask for his specific advice? An early Christmas present for you both.

Love you ST and I'm sorry I've not been here for you this week. I promise I will get round to ringing you this week. You have no idea how manic I am at the moment. I'm completely frazzled and will explain more on my thread.

{{{{{{{{ST}}}}}}}}

No, he doesn't ST. He's pressing your buttons to see if you really want to leave. He's saying things deliberately to hurt you or make you angry to see if you will say "I've had enough, this is the final straw, I want a D".

He's feeling insecure and is acting with the emotional maturity of your average toddler, lashing out because that's how he knows to get attention.

I don't think for a minute that he means what he's saying.

Can you think of how best to respond to him when he acts like this?

UA time down...check
Tension that didn't get resolved...check
Stress as the result of things left unfixed for a long time...check
A year ago was a holiday time probably something less than enjoyable just before his world was torn to shreds...check

Empty love bank
State of Conflict
Emotional baggage packed and being carried around.
Triggers up the wazoo...

Why would he think MB won't work?

A while back I mentioned that you guys have twice the work to do of a typical recovery around here because you really have two recoveries. It might have gotten lost in the MB version of 2012, but what I'm getting at is that there are two things that either one is often enough to drive couples to divorce.

Predating the one we've all seen on these pages is his tendency toward abuse and inability to control his anger when he gets frustrated. This is very difficult to deal with all by itself. Many women (and men) walk away from a situation like this and never look back. It is very emotionally draining for both of you. You keep wondering if he is really changing his way and he worries that he'll never be good enough.

Then we have the affair. Again something extremely difficult to recover from, without any additional problems that endanger the very foundations of the marriage. Many walk away from this sort of thing every single day, even on these forums where saving marriage is the goal, couples sometimes find themselves walking away never to return.

Either one of those would be daunting.

You can't stay married if you don't feel safe.

He has exactly the same problem. He doesn't feel safe.

Even worse, the very things that are required to hold him accountable for his choices are counterproductive to his healing from the affair.

And I KNOW he says he's past that...

WRONG...

He has stuffed his insecurities and anger and hurt and frustration over the affair because he doesn't want you to leave him over his lack of control of his anger.

Which of course makes dealing with his anger management issues all the more difficult. It also prevents him from being able to deal with issues surrounding the affair because dealing with the affair makes him more angry than anything that ever happened to him.

And you get to deal with the affair AND his anger issues. He only gets to deal with his anger issues. He can't process the affair because the affair is kept as second fiddle to his controlling his anger.

Just so you know, you guys are proving that MB works. When you get UA time and meet each others ENs and have no Love Busters for a day or two you both feel fantastic.

Then real life intervenes and things slide backward. Just keep in mind that he IS angry about the affair but because he can't process his anger since that is part of what his problem is to begin with, an inability to properly process anger, he has only one option left and that is to stuff it down until he can't contain it.

So he can't deal with the affair for fear of losing control of his anger. And you can't handle his anger, much of which is the result of the affair. There has to be some sort of breakthrough here, ST and soon. He can't simply change all his focus to fixing his anger management issues and never get around to processing the affair. It is a ticking time bomb waiting to explode. All of his anger and fears over the affair he simply accumulates, carrying them around with him, the weight and magnitude slowing him down, making him feel inadequate and causing him to lose hope.

You see, when we fall into a state of Conflict, our Giver steps aside and our Taker runs the show. Out Taker wants to protect US even if it means that our spouse gets hurt in the process. You Taker is running the show and you fear his anger so you become stronger, more independent and emotionally more distant.

He has to put his Taker on hold in order to work on what has become HIS problem. But his real problem is that his Taker is screaming in his ear that he has to protect HIMSELF and the affair needs to be dealt with. But the affair makes him angry and he can't fully express anger in a way that you will accept since any anger is seen as a relapse on his part. So he stuffs it all in a gunny sack and carries it along his way...

Eventually his Taker is going to have to be satisfied. Eventually his anger has to be processed. Eventually he will have to deal with your affair and so will you. Your recovery has to be about recovering from the affair and not just about his anger control. Failure to find a way to make these two things happen at the same time will spell disaster for you marriage. He can't deal with anger to begin with and he should be angry about the affair. He should also be angry about how any bad vibes for any reason gets turned back into his anger control issues and never seems to get around to dealing with or talking about the affair that he found out about one year ago.

AND...this past week you TRIGGERED over an incident involving OM. I know what you said on these forums, but I saw that while you handled it correctly from what I could tell, you also had something that flashed through your mind that you did not say here and probably tried to deny to yourself and that is because of the way emotional content is linked to memories. A bunch of emotions you had buried crept back in, if only briefly, but suddenly a bunch of things appeared that caused you to momentarily look at your husband through the lens of the affair. You pulled yourself together and got yourself back on track and in part you did it by processing and dealing with it in a way that allowed you to share it with others, get encouragement and move forward.

J has no way to process any of that stuff...

He just has to deal with it alone.

So your week began with UA time going out the window, a reminder of the emotions of the affair for you, a trigger regarding the time of year for him and an emotional distance between you that was created in good part by your emotional state coupled with your fear of angering him and his fear of losing control of his anger.

Sounds like your week sucked...

Make the next week better and reverse all of those trends...

Gotta fix both sides of this, ST. You can't wait for his anger problem to get fixed before dealing with the affair. He needs you to help him process that stuff or else you will have a perfectly happy, agreeable, anger free divorce.

Start thinking in terms of POJA, PORH and UA. Start doing the MB stuff to improve the Love Bank valance of both of you. Get somebody's Giver involved in this process or you simply will not make it...

Mark

Bingo Mark,

that's just what I wanted to say but didn't have the wisdom to put into words.

You're a treasure.

Thank you both of you. I'll be back... but let's just say I could feel a different person here when I walked in the house tonight and we have had a conversation.

I did know what this was about for him and he said that hte penny dropped for him on the way to work. He got back in before me and skimmed through both your posts before he saw me. I think he would have talked to me even if he hadn't read here; but reading what you wrote obviously gave him more confidence to talk to me.

There are a few things that have been buggin him over the last few weeks that we have now got to the bottom of (I think). I feel the most important thing I can do is to keep encouraging him to talk to me.

Might not be back properly til fri night (he's off out, preschool committee xmas meal- not that he told me, I found out form my sis)

We'll make peoper use of our 3 hours UA time tomorrow.

Oh ST .... {{{{ ST }}}}

I'm sorry too, I haven't kept up here but I am up to speed now.

I feel the same way. ( sere, I think you did pretty good, much better than what I could have. )

I can give you encouragement though.

I know it's tough, but we are all tougher.
It takes a great amount of strength to stick around here, face our fears and inadequacies.
And ... even more strength to put towards fixing them.

Chin up girlie, you are adorable and I get such a kick out of you.

You and J will survive, and thrive.

Good words have been spoken to you by the fabulous people here .... stay focused.

Hey ST.

An upturn.

That's why they call R a rollercoaster ride.

Good to see things taking a more positive turn. Enjoy your UA time tomorrow, and looking forward to your update at the weekend.

to ST and a big to J.

Hey, ST.

What a week, huh? I have little advice but tons and tons of love and warm ju-ju heading your way.

I care about you so much, my friend. I have no idea how I can help, but I am here however you want. Otherwise, I defer to Mark and Sere.

Sending my love and prayers...

Good on ya for shutting yourself away form here for - was it hard to start with, when did it get easier? I guess when you're busy though it is easier.

Thank you for saying that, because although it is what I keep trying to convince myself sometimes I begin to doubt it and think that this is the final down turn.

I'm not a very sympathetic person and although I knew this, it still made me angry and sad - MY TAKER.



Last Christmas was tricky - I didn't really want to be near J, his dad had just had major surgery and my friend had just lost her baby of 5 weeks - I was grieving and supporting her and my emotion waas obviously topped out by the stress and guilt I was feeling about the A and I was also mad at J for wanting to be with his dad - he was away supporting his mum and dad when the babe died and I told him first thing in the morning and he didn't call me once all day. This was a year ago this week just gone. We worked well as a team and had great un with the kids in the morning; we cook for 10 but by the afternoon I just wanted to be alone - and really just alone. I went out for a long walk by myself and sat at Harvey's grave and cried. Mum and DD went back to hers for something and dad and J and DS did the bloke in fornt of the telly thing, I think.

I know - he did take it really well when I told him, it was later when he read about it here that it hit more.



Today I am confident and positive again, although more stress added into the pile which I'll come on to later.

I'm hoping that we can get through the next few weeks "TOGETHER". I'm going to try really hard to make sure that I am available for him to talk to even if my taker is screaming.


We have started the discussion on this and I have compared the prices of all the options and he is keen to jump back on board (as you said, just tantrums before). Exchange rate looks a lot lot better than it was ealier in the year - or maybe we both see the value so much more.

Please, please don't apologise. You have your life and many important roles to fulfill up north.

Thank you Sere
x

Thank you for your response Mark

Since a couple of months after dday, I have very rarely doubted and only for minutes that we are not capable of twice the work. I did a questionnaire in psychologies magazine and my result said that I tackle/look upon the future with confidence ( not that I needed a magazine to tell me that). I have that confidence in both of us now. It just wobbles occasionally.

The second clause of this sentence I think is the dominant one - I do think he is changing - just has occasional setbacks.


We can't stay married if we don't feel safe. This is contentious ground in my head - Harley says we shouldn't trust our spouse; if we live our lives not trusting our spouse then that means we can't feel 100% safe. And again for the violence - I can't be 100% certain, can I? I have to make sure I keep myself as safe as I can - if I do that does that mean I do then feel safe? Is that 100% safe. Yes, maybe I do feel 100% safe that he won't hurt me because I am better educated in stopping a situation escalating. That o course doesn't mean that there is 100% chance that it won't happen.

And for J? I am as certain as anyone reading and understanding the dynamics of As and ow they happen that J is safe from a repeat of that betrayal. How does he get to feel more safe? I think his concern would be more about him and his anger management and being safe from losing his family because of it.


I think me and him began to touch on this yesterday. And to me, he has been less angry since dday than he was for the 3 years before.

Well, when on earth will he ever get round to processing that? I have seen him be directly angry about the A once, which was a good few months ago, and it was such a relief for me. And we do have lots of discussion about his feeling that he doesn't measure up to OM, but he doesn't get angry in those conversations.

.:) I know that... he's still in denial about it

So you do think he needs some very targettd counselling to deal with this? IS it something we can work on together? COnfiding in a friend? What do you reckon?

What do I do about this? Give him a chance to physiclly discharge his anger at me? What do i do about this?

I certainly don't disagree with this. What do I give though? Is it as simple as UA time to get back to a giving state or is there something that I can specifically give to stop us tip toeing around the top of the volcano? I know I can make myself more available or conversation.

I'm going to disagree here: it isn't "ANY" bad vibes that get turned back in to his anger control. My english teacher always said I had geat powers of empathy. Maybe I'd left them dormant for a good few years but I am now back on course with them and I put a lot of though in to what/why or how he has come to feel of kilter on a day and for the most part I can start the conversation to relieve the tension...

MAybe on some days I don't anticipate and I don't give unravelling his actions and words enough time... but actaully to some extent that is another thing that has caused me resentment over all of our years. Why does it have to be me that keeps the spirit positive; thinks of the work arounds; tries to keep things up beat and out in the open so that they aren't buried and sulked about? It gets sooo tiring.

Although I didn't write it specifically I think I worte in sucha way that there would be little doubt that this hadn't happened - part of it denial, part of it just not wanting to spell it out. And I am so grateful that this forum is here and it is such a fantastic way of processing all the cr*p.

Why does he HAVE to deal with it alone Mark? It's his choice to.

A very good summary


Trying to!
See, you've said all along Mark that he neds to process the A, but I reckon this week is the VERY first time that he has actually considered that he needs to ( i was going to change considered to said but then realised he hadn't said that - just go the impression from the questions he's asking and the fact that he doesn't deny that it bothers him now)

So... the time has come. As I said to Sere - we've priced up and are looking at our options.

Is it worth getting SaA at this point? Will this help J to process it?


Thank you muchly Mark

Do you know what V, you are so so right. I think that is the one thing that is so outstanding on these boards is just how tough and just how resillient people are. MBers vs the WORLD

Chin's back up. No one has ever ever ever (to my knowledge) called me adorable before - 'm sure my mum would laugh very loudly at that. I'm trying to work out what it is I do that gives that impression. But I do very much like it and thank you or saying so.

Kind of sounded like Mark has his doubts - that could have been deliberate to gee me up a bit. I just have that overriding feeling that we will and it always stays with me (sometimes it ends up in my little toe though and I can't always feel it so far down there)

Oh... and where is YOUR thread?????

That love and warm ju-ju has encapsulated this little bungalow in the south of England. Thanks L4. It is fantabulous knowing ou are there.

Love and prayers and wam ju-ju back at ya too, it seems to grow exponentially
x

hey ST,
not much to add, you have the good ones posting to you, lucky girl
A thought did occure to me regarding why do you have to be the upbeat person etc. I was taught a long time ago that the mother sets the tone of the house, ie "when mama's not happy, nobody is happy".

While I dont 100% agree with it (flick can set the tone very well when he wants to) I do believe that having someone upbeat does make the house a happy home. I used to make a real effort to walk in from milking each morning with a cheery 'good morning family' even on the mornings that were total cr*p and those mornings did seem to go better thsan the ones when I stomped in and just b*tched about how bad milking was.

Well enough blather, and its prolly not MB anyway