No. I had been divorced from my FXW for more than six years. She had been divorced from hers about two. In fact, she was in another relationship when I first met her, and never spoke to her until that relationship was over (she threw the guy out. Is there a trend here? Rhetorical question. I know the answer).

She's going to be in for a rude awakening, if that's what she's expecting.

Sorry, but my patience and kindness has limits. Pardon me if I ramble here for a minute...

Had TDay dinner with my daughter, her BF and my FXW. Imagine. FXW remarried many years ago, but her H was visiting his parents on the other coast for their 60th.

My daughter has been not only very supportive, but is actually relieved "the b*" is gone! Minces no words, eh? FXW is also very supportive. Both think I should file for D as soon as is permissible and move on.

Before I went, I did a Plan A move: I sent a text message to WW asking her if she wanted to have TDay dinner tonight. I knew she would turn it down, and she did. OM isn't in a position to take her out anywhere right now! Dining out was always "our time together," so I thought it might make a deposit in her LB.

Tonight I am drafting my Plan B letter. Would it be inappropriate to post it here for feedback? I plan to hand it to her as I'm escorting her to the car as she's leaving, and sending a copy to OM at his address (which neither of them know I have).

I don't have the wording yet, but I am going to insist that she not call or text me, and only email me when she wants to schedule a time to stop by and pick up her stuff. And I don't want nickel-and-dime visits; she can bring a truck, a van or a convoy for all I care, but the fewer times she has cause to "visit" the better!

Is this a sound strategy? Complete separation is my goal. Let her come face to face with: No job, no money, no home, no OM who can provide her with even physical intimacy for the present, and no "sugar daddy nice guy" H who will bail her out.

Comments? Criticism? Flaws?

She was a drunk when she left her XH. Her warped thinking had her believe she was leaving and would bring them with her. XH had other ideas. She hit bottom and got into recovery.

My FXW told me tonight that she wonders if WW has ever been really "in recovery?" She observed that WW is incapable of looking inward, and always looks outward: passing approval or judgment, but never looking in the mirror.

Recovery programs are based on looking at ourselves and changing those characteristics that block us from being whole, healthy human beings. She became a counselor, yet it seems she was incapable of seeing her own flaws. "Physician heal thyself," right?

Yes, post it here. Don't include meeting you to get her stuff. Instead, move all her stuff out into your garage, or a storage building. Text her that you're leaving the garage door open on Saturday and Sunday, and she has those two days to get it or else you're calling Salvation Army to pick it up on Monday. Do NOT make any moves to help her. You never have to see her at all. Make it as difficult to transition as possible.

That said, I have to admit that I hope you don't get back together. I see nothing but trouble for you for the rest of your life if you take her back. WAY too much trouble in her.

I think you have a good plan.

A couple things you stated struck me as red flags for a possible personality disorder.

First, she has a histroy of chemical dependency and the incidence of personality disorcers among the chemically dependant is manytimes higher than in the general population.

Second, your daughter, apparently, is not enamoured of her. Was she mean or distant to your child? The disordered almost never get along and, frequently abuse stepchildren. This is incredibly common.

Your daughter probably sees her more clearly than you have, as she was not influenced by the attraction deal and was not as invested as you in making a secnd marriage work.

After a failed first marriage, many folks bend over backwards to make the second one work, such tht they tolerate a lot of abusive behaviors.

Why does your daughter feel thisway about her? Did she bond , at a, with your daughter.

Third, is the affair, itself. Risky sexual behaviors and infidelity are very common in the disordered.

Have you looked into Borderlinge or Narcissistic personality disorders and checked the criteria?

Financial irresponsibility is also a huge red flag and one of the signs. The fact that she has lost her job, relapsed and is not looking to bring in an income and expecting you to foot these bills, speaks to both financial recklessness and a huge sense of entitlement, as does the afair.

If she has apersonality disorder, I do not think the plans will work. This type ofperson is badly broken and will not react as the typical WS, IMO. They are way more ivested in not looking at themselves, as you haave mentioned, than a typical wayward.

Unlike the typical WS, where these behaviors are temporary and associated with being in an affair, this inability/unwillingness to look within and take responsibility is a lifelong pattern.

She was drunk in her previous marriage, despite having children and even the threat of losing them did not wake her up and she lost them. A run of the mill CD person would have awakened.

Can you talk to her EXH? I found that talking to a guy who was my XWW's old boyfriend, was very enlightening. He is a nice , normal guy and he was nothing like tthe picture that shepainted. He expierienced many of the same abusive behaviors. She stole his Television and ran up a $600 phone bill beofre leaving him.
Cehck out the Shrink4men website and Borderline family site and see if anything fits.

If it does, you are lucky to be getting out. My XWW's cheating was the final straw in a long history of abusive behaviors. It got me off my butt,and out.

I can't do the first: Our legal agreement states she has six months to remove her possessions from the house. After six months, whatever remains is mine.

But as much as it pains me to say it, there is a part of me (and so say many of our friends) that agrees with you. Getting back together could be a terrible mistake. Right now, I have a home, a job, money in the bank, and my only child is grown up and on her own. My WW has nothing but baggage to offer. And that could wind up dragging me down.

A little self-revealing may be necessary. I too, am in recovery. I have been an active member of A.A. for over 18 years. I have a sponsor (49 years sober), a home group, a service position, and believe that nothing comes before my sobriety. Anything I put before my sobriety I am going to lose. Even relationships (perhaps especially relationships).

Following today's wonderful afternoon with my daughter and FXW, I decided to attend a special holiday A.A. meeting. There I ran into a woman I've know for years (42 years sober) who also knows the two of us. And she knows the OM. She told me that she knew the OM had a "wandering eye," and had warned off several women newcomers months earlier. She also mentioned she had seen my WW at a meeting recently, and that she "looked like she had been hit by a Mack truck."

I have since decided that I am going to ask my A.A. sponsor to "visit" my home next Monday evening. I think having a third party present when I make sure she leaves will blunt any possibility she might try to coerce me into allowing her to stay. My resolve is firm.

Yes, my sobriety comes first. I have not thought of drinking, but my knowledge of relapse leads me to believe that she is headed in that direction. Often, addicts and alcoholics relapse on something other than their drug of choice, but eventually turn back to it when the other choice fails. All signs point in this direction, and although I love her, I also know that I am powerless to prevent her from crashing.

I only hope she lives.

My first wife , a serial cheater and alcoholic, began an affair with a man in her AA group. She would go out dancing with him and, eventually flew off to Chicago for a weekend with him.
I have heard that AA can be a breeding grund for this type of thing.

Thanks, Zelmo. And thanks everyone who has responded with such openness and kindness in just a couple of days. You've given me a lot to think about.

I am aware that I chose to overlook a lot of the warning signs. I know her history, and chose to believe what I wanted to believe, and chose to ignore what I wanted to ignore. You are very right about folks bending over backwards to accommodate another to avoid a ruinous relationship. And look where it winds up, anyway.

I guess I am pursuing my Plan B -- with its six month time limit (divorce) -- in the faint hope that something, somehow, will force her to come to her senses. She can be a very warm, caring, loving person. That's the woman I fell in love with, not the deceitful, untrustworthy woman she has become. Either the first was an act or the latter is an aberration. I feel like I have six months to find out.

As in all social environments, there are disreputable people. In A.A., everyone comes in lacking repute. That's why wiser heads are needed. There are suggestions about not getting into relationships for the first year. People should get sponsors of the same sex.

There's a saying for women in A.A.: "Men will try to grab your a**, women will try to save it." Unfortunately, some choose to not listen to old-timers' advice. I heard a similar story this evening. The man -- with over 15 years of sobriety -- relapsed due to an affair, and died. A.A. is life or death. Any alcoholic who doesn't take it seriously is going to wind up dead. Fact.

My dad recovered after 40 years of drinking not less than 32 shots a day(he decided to keep track for the last several months of drinking).
He was an amazing lawyer, drinking on trial breaks and winning just about everytime. But, what a nightmare our home was. We kids and my mom prayed he would just pass out.
Once he stopped, he was a different person. He was in a group with [censored] Van Dyke and Jonathan Winters.
There are some amazingly talented alcoholics.
Yes, take your time on this. No kids to protect, right? That helps.
If she is disordered, it is no surprise that your initial impression was favorable. Those folks are experts at mirroring and masking. Seldom does the abuse start until after enmeshment.
Can you inquire of others re theirimpressions of her? Once I was exiting and had disclosed the cheating to others, folks came out of the woodworks to give me their impressions and to give me a lot of bizzare history. Amazingly, this inluded her parents and sibling.
It may give you some insight into what you are dealing with to hear what others saw and know.

Zelmo, I have done some research on personality disorders. For a while I thought she might be narcissistic, but she didn't seem to fit the criteria. FWIW, her oldest daughter has been diagnosed as Borderline Personality, but I never thought WW could be the same. It might fit, however.

As for others, I have had friends offer me comfort, but she ran away from one town, where her FXH and kids were, so the only knowledge people have of her here is as of her sobriety date. I do know that she had a very dysfunctional childhood (born out of wedlock, adopted by grandparents, overweight as a child) and she's carried a lot of baggage about that with her, and then there's the guilt over leaving her kids...

I guess I was blinded by the "fact" of recovery. We are given a new chance when we get sober. We have a program of recovery that demands rigorous honesty, admission of faults, and making amends. There is redemption in A.A. if people are willing to do the work. The reward is essentially a fresh start. Many of our friends looked on us as the "poster children" for the miracle of A.A.

From Chapter 5 of the book, Alcoholics Anonymous:

"Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. "

Fred,

Dr. Harley talks about four types of liars: 1) protector liars 2) trying to look good liars 3) avoid trouble liars and born liars. Which kind is your wife? From your post, do you believe her to be a born liar?

AM

ArmyMama, I don't know enough about the different kinds of liars. I read Dr. Harley's article here, but I don't see where "looking good liars" is listed. I'm guessing this is a person who lies to him/herself (and to others) about what is happening in their life in order to make themselves look good, shifting blame and responsibility on others. Given my WW's behavior, I'd place her in this category. She lies without even knowing it.

Of course, she knows she lied about the A. But now that it's in the open, she behaves as if it was the most natural thing in the world. Maybe that makes her a born liar?

The Letter (first draft), for your consideration and comments:

My Dear S_____,

Today is the day that, by mutual agreement, signed and notarized, this address ceases to be your home. In keeping with our stated goal of a mutually respectful environment, I ask you to observe the following:

Do not call or text message me. When you wish to come by and retrieve your things, email me and we will arrange a mutually agreeable time to do so.

Be prepared to retrieve as much as is possible. I do not wish for you to simply pack a suitcase and be done with it. You have moved out. Please arrange for a moving van, if possible. If you cannot move everything at once, please try to do so in as few trips as is feasible.

If you would rather go through a third party, my attorney will act as a go-between. You can call M_______ S____ at (000) 000-0000. She will communicate your wishes to me.

S_____, we have both burned a lot of bridges the past five weeks. I have left one standing. But it is very narrow. And a lot of water is flowing under it. You must know the pain and suffering I have endured because of your relationship with M___, and I simply cannot stand to see or speak with you knowing you are with him. I still love you but I cannot see you under these conditions.

Please respect my decision to move forward this way. I would like to be able to rebuild our marriage some day. I want us to be able to meet each others� emotional needs and to avoid doing anything to hurt each other. We need to build a new lifestyle in which everything we do makes us both happy. I want to be your best friend, someone who is always there for you when you need me. And I want you as my best friend.

I loved you when we married and I continue to love you right up to this day. I just cannot be with you or help you as long as you are seeing M___.

With my love,

Some suggestions:

Excellent letter, IMO, Fred. Firm expectations but civil and giving her a choice to repair the damage she has done.

On the BPD, it does have a hereditary component and the tough childhood is a factor, they say. It's a tough diagnosis for even the therapists and, usually, they do not want therapy as they know it requires looking within.

Good luck. If she will not get help, there is nothing you can do, like the serentiy prayer says, you can only control what you can.

The Separation and Property Settlement Agreement (SPSA) we signed prevents me from doing this. To wit:


This is why I am requiring her to make substantial moves rather than in driblets. Remember, we are dealing with a woman who for all intents and purposes has no place to go. I am going to propose that she take the "essentials" she needs (and then I'll move everything out of the closet in the master bedroom) and come back for the rest when she's found housing.

Further, the Agreement specifies


Since we both brought furniture, clothing, etc. into the marriage, I read this to say that if she doesn't remove her stuff after six months, it's mine to dispose of as I see fit.

Since she hasn't been home all this week (except to "brush her teeth" once), I'd say she's found a place to stay...

I have another question for the veterans (and anyone else who might wish to respond):

My wish is to hand the Plan B letter to WW as she is leaving Monday (which I expect she will do -- I'm trying to discern her plans right now). I wonder if I should also send a copy to her "in care of" OM at his address? And even though I could not contact the OM's W due to a disconnected phone (hint: the online "detective services" aren't worth the money), I was thinking of sending a copy to her at her last known address.

Thoughts? Warnings? Suggestions?

I wonder if I should also send a copy to her "in care of" OM at his address?

Yes

And even though I could not contact the OM's W due to a disconnected phone (hint: the online "detective services" aren't worth the money), I was thinking of sending a copy to her at her last known address.

Yes

Pepperband, in the event she does not return before move-out day (M-Day), should I perhaps send two copies to the OM's address? One to her and one to him?

And perhaps I should send one to him and add the P.S. that is suggested in SAA?