Excellent N2F, thanks much. I'll look for it right now.
I've dropped another long-winded post below of a sort of recent development. I'd appreciate your (and others') input.

opt

[edited to add: WHOA, it's 154 pages! You might have to give me a synopsis, but I'll try to at least skim it tonight. According to the last page they got to recovery. Seems like a million miles away to me right now, but I have hope.

Got a call from WW today during work �I�m really depressed�
This is the second time we�ve been down this road in about a week. I was hoping for a �I don�t know she I�ve done�.�
No such luck, of course.
So, when I got home, I did my best but got dragged into a few R discussions including some talk about D. A lot of it...
I was able to smooth over most of my mistakes and by the end of the night we were hugging and joking a little.
The jist of it:
�We just can�t communicate�
�It was never about the OM� (and my favorite part) �I now know it wasn�t about the OM because he�s out of my life and I still don�t love you�
�I�m done, burned out working on the M� (I wanted to ask when she was planning to start�)
�you�ve never known what I wanted, it�s amazing to me how unintuitive you are�
�the �friendship� [that kills me] was just a band-aid over a gaping wound in the relationship�
�You won�t cooperate with me at all about my separation from you� (I refuse to move out, thanks MB)
�you seem like a robot� (because I wont engage in her damaging dialogues)
�You�re weird behavior [plan A], is actually pushing me away from you, making us more distant�
*** now, here�s where we get to something interesting:
I have been reading the �5 Love Languages� and I have come to strongly believe that her primary love language is �words of affirmation�/communication (and maybe to some extent quality time- with communication). So, I honestly am feeling that the part of part A about not talking about the relationship has been a huge LB overall for WW. So, I have decided that I have to �talk about R� to some extent but have boundaries � but ONLY enough to get her to talk about her feelings, which is what I think she really wants to talk about anyway. Previously when I walked out on R discussions, I think I was missing a hidden opportunity to deposit Love Units (and in turn inadvertently taking some out).

Ultimately I was able to turn things around a little by telling her (sincerely) that my �acting strange� lately was a legitimate effort to be a better person and be someone that she could love again. That wasn�t getting me very far, so I opened up a little more and let her in on the fact that another motive was that I sincerely felt that she was having an affair (didn�t accuse her, just said what I felt) and that I hoped I could appear more attractive to her than the other guy. I also made the extra effort to let her know that I was not judging her about any of it and I was trying to understand her position.

I also let her know that one of the reasons I don�t know what she wants is that we�ve done a poor job spending time together (a problem that undoubtedly lead to the A). [NOT discussed: My hope is to ask at counseling tomorrow night if we could plan to spend just 15 minutes a night of undivided attention. I figure the first several times might be uncomfortable, but it�s a start, and I believe it is one of her top EN�s, so it goes right along with plan A.]
Anyway, this all seemed to calm her down somewhat. I�m also hoping that letting her know how I felt about her extramarital activities has the effect of at least making her think twice about pursuing them (that might be too much to hope for�.)

opt

Set up a jigsaw puzzle. Work on it each night as a way to 'unwind' before you go to bed. Help her find her pieces. Accidentally brush her hand as you reach for a piece.

Opt,

I am going to give you a condensed version of TMTS thread. You will miss the IMPORTANT key points of it. But I will give you a brief start....Mrs. TMTS starts an A, thus begins the fogbabble. "I-you-but-I'm-not-in-love-with-you....I need "time"....I want a divorce....we can remain "friends"....", you know what I mean. TMTS finds MB and starts a thread. He follows Plan A to a T. Yes, he made mistakes, had set backs, but he stayed the course. He ACTIVELY met her EN'S, avoided LB'S, and he did this with NO EXPECTATIONS. He came her to vent, even to have a few laughs (what can I say, you tend to make friends with those who are going through similiar things...). He set a date for his Plan B, starting the day she was going to MOVE OUT. Endured going through mediation with her (a requirement in Canada....). And then things came to a head on the day she was set to move out......yes, there is a happy RECONCILED ending. He doesn't post here any more, but I email with him occassionaly and they are doing well......

Now back to YOU.....

You want the good news or the bad???.....ok good first....




TO ME, this is good. She is still attached to YOU. Noticed she called YOU. This is good. Yes, I realize she just spouted a bunch of fogbabble, but she is leaning on YOU......That right there is hope to me....(BUT,,,,,MB ain't about Plan Hope....)



Ok, this is not bad. It sounds like you handled it very well. Good for you......and actually, I would like to amend my no R/M/A talk to LIMIT your R/M/A talk. When SHE initiates this, just stick the your mantra of "I know our M wasn't all it could be, BUT I truly think we can make this work." Start talking about EN'S and LB's (not ones that she does or doesn't do but just general talk of what they are....). But you mostly need to show her your willingness to do this through your actions....

This is all fogbabble....to be taken with a grain of salt....Except the part of him being out of her life....

Isn't this guy a neighbor??...How do you KNOW that NC is in place??

Maybe she just saw him driving down the street. Maybe they bumped into each other at the local Jiffy Mart. Maybe not. But IF they have, it sets the clock back at zero and brings back those "feelings" for the OM.....I have a hunch there is contact going on of some fashion.....

Now, good to see you reading 5LL, but what about SAA???....I've asked you this before yet you haven't answered....What are her top 3 EN'S???? and what are you ACTIVELY doing every day to met them????

not2fun

I LOVE this idea.....

not2fun

Thanks N2F for summarizing. I'll go back for the details but I appreciate your efforts to give me the rundown. I can see some of the similarities, and I can also tell he's a good guy. If you talk to him tell him folks like me continue to draw from his experience.

Thanks for your assessments as well. I appreciate your insights. To answer a few questions:
The guy IS a neighbor. I only know from what recon I've been able to do that there has been one email and a couple of texts which she has not answered. I have no way of knowing if she's talking to him on the phone, but am working on VAR's. I suppose it's entirely possible that they are meeting somewhere and I'm also looking into a GPS tracker. I totally understand the concept of the clock moving back each time he tries to contact her; I worked in mental health and substance abuse clinics and I see the correlation between addiction to drugs/alcohol and addiction to A.

Here's the thing N2F (and others reading): I think she may be done with the original OM. I honestly believe (I know what your going to say, but follow along with me) that I know when she's lying. I think she has NOT established appropriate boundaries with him but I do believe when she says she's done with him she is effectively done with the EA, for now. (again, follow along with me, and put that club down ).

THE RUB: (feedback please). I totally believe that she has bounced from one EA (original OM) to the concept of being single/available or even the potential of OM#2 (could be the guy she was talking to at the bar mentioned above, or a friend of the family who happens to be recently divorced- I'm keeping a watchful eye on that one, let me tell you).

She's still way foggy and not ready to let go of all the fun she had last summer during the A. Is it uncommon for someone to let go of an A with every intention to simply start another, or at least make herself available for it? I know when I was wayward, the thrill of the possibility was very alluring; I doubt if I would have given that up without a fight if challenged.

Trust me, I'd love to move away from OM. But that takes time even if I did get her agreement (both names on the house). Right now I feel like I have to play with the cards in my hand. There's some talk in the hood about OM moving. Everyone hates him and he used to be pretty popular around here; I think he's miserable.

Her EN's are leisure time and conversation and openness/honesty (imagine that). I am actively trying to meet EN's. She's not comfortable with it and claims that it is pushing her away from me.

HOWEVER, what I think is really pushing her away from me is that at the same time, I'm trying to disrupt the A (which I still consider to be active insofar as NC was recently broken for sure) as well as trying to interfere with further developing potential EA's by coming home when she doesn't expect it and asking lightly probing questions. Oooh, she hates feeling watched.
IS IT OKAY that I'm doing this???

I'm more than half way through SAA (so little time to read when I feel like spending time with the kids/family, reading posts/threads, etc). I've been real good about LB's I think.

You never really gave me any bad news. Let me have it - I know there are things I can do better. I also know this stuff takes time to develop so I'm trying to be patient.

Want some good news?
She finally agreed to talk to Steve and has an appointment for Friday am.
Pray.

In the meantime she was badmouthing MB tonight and saying that I've been "indoctrinated" in the philosophy and using "catch phrases" (NOT true b/c I've actually been careful not to use words from the books). She likens it to a cult. Funny, b/c I have really been careful not to mention it, I clear my history and hide the books. She's also "nervous" to spend the money (fog talk - I wanted to remind her how much divorce costs but bit my tongue). Oh well, hopefully Steve can cut through some of the bullsh!t, but she's pretty tough (comes by that honestly).

thanks again for all the help.
optimism

opt - her agreeing to talk is an awesome, huge step. Good luck Friday. I'll be looking for updates.

Also, it seems like she's still in the very, very early stages of withdrawal, so the fogtalk will continue to be deep. Keep working through it. That was difficult for me - there were times I thought I'd puke (sorry for the visual) - but I knew I had to let it go. It's still there once in a while, but much better.

......yep, that's us, the MB cult...(I'm making some cyanide koolaide as I type.... ;)).....my H said the same thing


Here's something else to remember.....

Your sitch is NO different than any other affair and your WW is not behaving any differently than any other wayward. They all act the same, sound the same.....she is a drug addicted, fogged out wayward that will LIE about anything in order to get their fix....


Not2fun

It's this knowledge that made me decide to try to rescue my M. Before I learned this, I had decided to exit the M as quickly and as effortlessly as possible.

At times, I wonder why I want to put myself through the pain and agony of doing so, but then I remember: I married the woman I love. That has to count for something...

And she's probably still in there. Not a guarantee, but probably.

Linus, you know I'll have updates. Let's hope she goes through with it.
Fred, I hear ya. I woulda been a mess by now (as would this family) without you folks, this site, etc.
Not2Fun - I've been catching up on that thread you told me about (TMTS); you're right there's a ton of good insight there. (oh, and pass the koolaide, si vous pleas)

ALL:
I've highlighted some of the questions I had in my post above. I was wondering if they could be addressed directly.
And I'm still wondering if you can plan B a wayward without a blatant A happening...

thanks.
opt

There is a big difference between you think and what you KNOW.....


yep....you are in a BS fog....I said the same friggin thing on here for 3 1/2 MONTHS!!!!....but my WH proved me wrong...Your Wife is a Wayward Wife. They LIE. About EVERYTHING. At all times.....believe nothing that she says.....oh...and just to let you know, EVERY single time my WH wanted to have a talk like yours did the other day, it was when "they" (WH and COW) had tried to "end" things..... .....EVERY SINGLE TIME.....

Thanks NotTwoFun, I knew you'd come through with some direct reponses. Just what I needed to hear as I didn't know there was BS fog, but I'm definitely prone to it.

I'll start being a lot more careful about believing actions and not words. And continue to recon.

I realized tonight (while reading SAA), that I have a tendency to LB (DJ's) in response to her honesty (before the A obviously, but also since). That's a difficult one b/c it hurts so much to hear her say she's with so-and-so. So I modify: continue to be disruptive but less LB's in the process.

No puzzle yet (Cat, I like the idea and will pursue it asap); but I did write her a poem! She's making it difficult to meet EN's but I figure she can't refuse to be read a poem, right? NO expectations - just read it and kinda went along with my business. It's a good thing I had your advice of NO EXPECTATIONS ringing in my ears, because you KNOW what I got for my trouble: a Selfish Demand "please stop being jealous."
I just kind of laughed inside; I know I'm the one with the plan, and the level-headed people supporting me.

thanks again Two, Plan A straight ahead.

Opt

not2fun,
I've been thinking all day about what you said. It's starting to sink in. I have to consider her wayward until her actions show she's not, and those actions must be conclusive. It's the damndest thing being in a BS fog; you guys have shown me the light several times in the last few weeks ("WW is LYING!") and you're always right, but then my fog comes back and I start believing words again. I guess I'm hoping you'll continue to be there with your spot lights when you see me getting fogged in.

At this point I have to admit that I don't know what she's up to (maybe my recon hasn't been good enough), but I have to assume it's something. If I'm wrong I'm wrong; but I can't rely on her for information.

I also read a post by a vet from a while ago (maybe MrsW or Resonance) about a WH who, for his PRIDE, held on to the notion that even though the A was over he the A wasn't about the OW it was about the problems in the M. If I'm not dealing with some of that yet, I'm sure I will be. W HATES to be wrong (not a DJ, just a fact), and historically has difficulty admitting it when she is.

We have a long road ahead of us.
For now: Plan A my butt off.

Optimism

I just saw the news that your WW agreed to counseling with SH. That's fantastic. Keep us posted!

Not much to report about WW's phone visit with Steve yet because she had to go to work before I got home from work.
She did call me in the afternoon (a rarity lately) and say she had talked to him but didn't have time to say anything about their conversation.

Here's the thing - I sensed a bit of something in her voice that was encouraging (hopefully I wasn't hallucinating).
I guess the next step is for me to have another call with him, which I'm totally up for. She's still worried about the money aspect of it (imagine that- after absconding with 10 grand from our joint account after the exposure!); I still don't know how much she thinks divorce costs... I'll have to figure out how to address that one, though as I'm really not doing the Independent Behavior thing anymore (a huge part of how we got where we are). Any advice on how to word my position would be helpful. I believe SAA (and other MB material) talks about negotiation, but I'm not sure we're at that point yet.

I'll check in after I've had a chance to touch base with WW about the call, although that might not be for a couple of days as I have been trying to plan things "spontaneously" (WITH her consent so it's not a LB - see I'm catching on) so that it's more difficult for her to go out and see her boyfriend or whatever she's up to these days when she's exercising her "right to have some space" within the marriage. ugh.

-Thanks for your interest-

Opt

Opt,

I was wondering how the phone call went. Too bad she isn't giving much up about it, but don't let that fret you. She is probably just letting it all sink in around there in that fog, and is wrestling with the TRUTH about what she has done. It will be a very hard time for her. I wouldn't push her to talk about it. Let her come to you about it.....if she wants to talk, GREAT, if not, let it be for now. Let Steve do his job, and you do yours.....

Which is .......

PLAN A....1,2, and 3




This is good. Yes, you want to keep her BUSY as possible with YOU.

As far as the money thing, let it go for now. It is not the most pressing thing for you to be dealing with. She already took it (huge LB for you, I know), but there's not really a WHOLE lot you can do about it without reducing it to a LOVE BUSTING war. I would ask Steve on your next appt. his advice about it, and until then do NOTHING......

Get busy this weekend,,,,,I EXPECT to hear a full report of your activities....

not2fun

Hey thanks for keeping up with me Not2Fun. It's encouraging to know I have the support.

Thanks for saying that as this was my gut, but I wasn't too sure if I should bring it up. As expected the w/e was busy (and pretty good with a visit from old mutual friends). I probably could have asked "so, you didn't get a chance to tell me how your conversation with Steve went" tonight, but the circumstances didn't seem perfect. Now that I've read the above, I'll leave it alone until she comes to me with it. [NOTE: SH even told me in our first conversation that HE's the coach and we're the players. I suppose a quarterback doesn't discuss the play with the RB in the huddle, he just executes it; that's how I'll look at it).]

*The only reason I would like to know what he said is that I am trying to read her behavior and if it is influenced by their conversation (it's mostly a curiosity thing). For instance, she expressed no interest in going out tonight even though she hasn't been out since last Saturday and has a busy work schedule through next Sunday, so there won't really be anymore opportunities.
No matter, I'll set up an appointment to talk to SH in the next week and get further instructions and stick with that.

As you can see, then, no talk about what he said. From body language and other cues, I can see that she seems to be digesting things. This all must be so bazaar for her. I've never been this nice without daily LB's before. I'm realizing how gifted I was at destroying my own good will in the past (e.g. with expectations, resentments, and a unruly Taker). Things are so different when you have a plan.

I didn't make myself very clear. I am not worried about the 10 G's. It was inheritance money from her Grandma and if she feels like she's entitled to it I'm not going to let it bother me. I figure it to be "FOGGY MATH" considering every penny of my salary for 15 years has been OURS not "MINE to SHARE." I'll go after half of it if she divorces me; but my plan is to not have that happen.


Further update on my plan A: (mostly for me...)
1)NO LB's. (execpt in the heat of the cooking fray I couldn't found the muffin tin in the cabinet and said to daughter "leave it to your mother to put something away when I wanted it out" - huge LB but I don't think WW heard me. I just remembered this - I'll have to talk to DD when I get a chance...
2)Friday night cleaning the house (with the kids) while she was at work. Left a space heater in her room so when she got home would be nice and warm (I don't usually support the idea of her sleeping separate, but I made this concession since she worked late). Made a stellar meal for 6 adults and 3 kids Saturday night (caused some tension b/c she gets very nervous about this type of thing, but I kept real cool and had everything planned out perfect*).
Sunday I laid around as much as I could b/c one of her identified annoying habits for me is "always trying to be productive/not relaxing." Watched a show with her.

3)NO EXPECTATIONS (good thing too, since there was not much show of any appreciation on her part. )

I was starting to get a little down. It helps to check in here and see what others are up to, as well as see I have some folks pulling for me (even if they don't come out and post). I was telling my Mother I have an "online support group." Sounds better than message board.

I've been doing a pretty solid consistent plan A for about 3 weeks (started before that but screwed it up so bad, I started my clock over essentially). The best I can figure, her last contact (unreciprocated, but it still counts) was about 2 weeks ago. We have a LONG way to go. She still has the secret cell phone and gets antsy when I disrupt possible clandestine activities (not a good sign).

She goes on a trip on Dec 26 for two weeks with DS and her Dad & his finance. That's two more weeks, plus 2 weeks of her absence (essentially 7 weeks total of solid plan A.) I figured I'd use her return week as a period of re-evaluation and then possibly start looking at a plan B as needed (and with SH's guidance). - VETS: how should I look at this trip she has planned? How does it play into the whole plan A thing?

Opt

PS: So, about the money thing above: I was trying to say that I'm not sure how to address the $200/per call to SH (and possible block of calls for $800) as WW doens't feel as strongly about the justification of the expenditure. IN the past I would have just done it (independent behavior). Any suggestions on how to state my position that the money is well spent? To me it's a no-brainer and I compare it to the bank-drainer process of divorce, but she's got grass-is-greener syndrome and seems to think D pays for itself. I also have the sentiment that I wish she worked more (not just for the money but it would keep her away from the temptations of her 'friends.') I think it's ML that says a lot of WW's/SAHM's are simply spoiled. We really don't have a lot of extra money, especially with oil bills looming. So it's a subject with many pitfalls and opportunities for DJ's etc.

Are any family members on the trip helping you put pressure on the A. Can the family member watch over her and make it more difficult for her to use secret cell phone?

Gg

Sounds like you are making the right moves Opt. I'm going to use your cooking a meal idea. I have NEVER cooked our family a meal in our 13 yrs together. Not a real one anyway. Should be interesting anyway.

Count me in as part of your 'online support group'.

By the way, I tried a phone session with Jennifer. My wife did not respond favorably as she is still in EA with OM and won't give it up yet. I got a lot out of it and may try again or give Steve a call.