You know what, Cat, that's not too far off the mark. The SuperNanny thing. I can honestly say that this whole MB thing first opened up my eyes to LBs (for me DJ's, AO's, IB's, dishonesty, etc.) and how damaging they are to a relationship. But what I didn't expect was how happy I could be in my own self with those gone. [not sure how personal to get, but I've also eliminated another nasty habit based on information gained here- another boost in my own sense of self-worth with that gone]. In the past, I had made similar observations (even went to an anger management class many years ago) and subsequent changes but the changes were usually short-lived. Difference: changes were made with an expectation that I was going to get something in return (more SF, eg.) This whole situation has taught me a whole lot. I suppose it would have been easier to go on SuperNanny, but if I do a reality show I think I'll start with the Amazing Race.

You're right. I was thinking of getting him a copy of SAA, and/or saying exactly what you said. He really was out of line criticizing something he hadn't researched. Problem is he's the only real life-preserver we have right now and I don't want to drop it until we have a viable alternative. We have done counseling in the past and then dropped it too early (job/insurance changes, etc.) - that's worse than not going at all in some ways. We've also got a pretty good history going with this guy and I don't want to screw up the therapeutic relationship at this juncture. He was trying to push me a little, and I have no problem with that; I just wished he'd have looked into the whole thing a little more (lot more). I think he may have set us back on our "recovery" a little (we'll see as things move forward).

Anyway, thanks Cat. Still hoping to have a couple of those questions answered above, hoping this post doesn't get buried.

And just for the record: I was never "that" guy. One of my annoying habits (my W filled it out practically at gunpoint over the summer) is "always trying to be productive and never just sitting and relaxing." My new approach is a shift to a new balance.

Opt

Momentary lapse of sanity:
WW (10 days since no contact) decides she wants to go to dinner with a friend. That turns into two friends, then drinks at the yaght club we are members at. I track her all night. She's basically where she says she is, and I know them at the club. I called a few times. Once to "look for something", Once to "check on her" once to get an ETA, and finally at 1am a little pissed because she had said she'd be home soon over an hour ago. I kinda lost my cool and asked who she was with (big LB for her at this time, especially since I know she's in a safe environment).
Is this typical WW behavior - recent exposure and probably in a withdrawal state? I'm trying to plan A but I just can't believe how inconsiderate she is being. Is she trying to punish/torture me, after all I've been through? How do I reconcile this when she gets home or in the am. How much "space" do I have to give while still plan Aing? I'm exhausted and a ball of nerves.
I know recovery is not for the timid. Maybe just need some encouragement. Or maybe I'm screwing up somewhere - please advise!
Opti

WSs always chafe at the sudden lockdown, and push the edges of authority. Yeah, you set it back a little. But now she knows what's on your mind. IMO, she knows now it's not going to be easy to slide on the rules.

fwiw, I don't see a problem with you emailing the counselor with a link to MB.

When my WH was still "foggy" he was going out to bars, hanging out late ~ which isn't anything he liked to do the whole rest of our M.

Listen, I am very concerned about your M given all that you guys have to overcome. If I were you, I would call Steve Harley ASAP. I would do it alone for the first session so that you can explain to him about your past A etc etc.

He will tell you where to go from there with your WW. I have heard Mel say before that Steve is known for being a "salesperson" and getting the WS to want to recommit to the marriage and use MB principles. My sister(NotSure) and her H are counseling with him right now. Her H didn't want anything to do with MC ~ but it turned out to be true, he really likes Steve and is actually completing the homework, etc.

Cat thanks so much. I read this after I woke up (she got in a 1:30 and I left it alone). In the morning I said sorry for "invading her space with the 'who are you with' comment," and she actually admitted that she had been somewhat "presumptuous" (that's above par for her when it comes to admitting any wrong doing - NOT a DJ, just an observation....)

Anyway, I think I smoothed it over, but I don't think my lack of trust is unfounded and will continue to be diligent. Her alibi checked out and all seems good.

Mostly, it is good to hear you folks affirming that this is typical behavior for a WS at this stage: still foggy, still feeling rebellious.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, anyone: I picture her withdrawing not only from the affair (EN's being met in secret) but also from the nice lifestyle she had made for herself all summer(the excitement, constant flattery, adrenaline, powerfull feelings) from the summer/fall. In order to ease the blow or come down softer, her taker might be saying 'stay out late.'
Make sense? is that a way to look at it?
Seems like my job is still to stick with Plan A (including snoops), and entice her to want to come home earlier.

I re-ordered SAA, 2 copies, express delivery. Should be here by next T session. "Here doc, why don't you try reading this before you criticize it."

Opt

Susie, thanks so much for your response. It helps. Yeah, she's usually in bed by 10 and asleep by 10:05. Which is why it was really tripping me that it got to be 1am and she was still out.

Anyway. Further questions:
Are these still typical fog related ramblings:

[list]
[*]"We could be such great friends if we were divorced"
[*]"would you ever consider continuing to be great friends and co-parents but just not married?"
[*]"I just don't think we were meant to be together"
[*]"If you badger me about my friends, I'm OUT"
[*]"You can't control me"
[my personal favorite. I've never tried to control anyone in my life. I'm a Libra for crying out loud. Hearing this I feel like Brair Rabbit hearing he's going to the bryer patch - my plan is to make her WANT to control herself].

And here's a concern.
It seems that some of her conversations with the bone-headed friends last night was all about how glamorous divorce can be. (she told me in the am). Her best friend actually hooked her up with a guy (for conversation) who is recently going through a "successful" divorce where the spouse took up with some low-life and is still with the OM going on two years - kicker: they have no kids and the situation gets more different from there. I plan to have a little chat with this "helpful consultant" as he is a member of the same club we go to. I also will be illiciting some assistance of my own from this best friend who is supposedly my friend as well (she actually helped me through my Dday thing 2 weeks ago).
Point is: is this just WW continuing to see and seek out information through FOGGY glasses to affirm this new sense of reality that the A threw her into? Is it normal for the foggy wayward to want to continue to hang on to the "it wasn't the affair, I really wanted out all along" song & dance? Is that an ego protection device?
It doesn't matter to me that much, I'm Plan Aing my A$$ off anyway and hoping for the best. I would just be really interested to hear if you folks think anything in here sounds amiss or unusual. [color:#333399T]thanks for any feedback.[/color]
Here's one. She actually suggested a time line for me when I told her I was "just trying to prove to myself I can be a better person long enough to feel confident in myself; whether you're there for it at the end or not (no pressure on you)." I understand time-lines don't really work, but I thought it was significant that she's talking in those terms. She offered SIX MONTHS. Which I also thought was coincidental because I've read that the TAKER usually resurfaces at 6 months, and women tend to need about 6 months to get things straightened out in their head (can't remember what post that was on this board).

Su-Q: I really appreciate your interest and your concern. Please know that I have taken your suggestion with the utmost seriousness. I consider it an order. I will call the Harley's and I will do it on my own for at least the first session. I hope you also understand that I am a very systematic person and I really feel that I need to have a firm grasp on MB concepts and particularly SAA before I make that call. I believe I rushed my exposure plan due to misapplying some of the encouragement I had recieved here (talk about having things out of order... ) and I don't want to repeat that.

You guys have NOT steered me wrong yet. I am so grateful for this site and your encouragement & guidance.

OPT

HELLO!!! wake up Opt!
After I had a chance to process this one (and one sleepless night last night) I realized I have a huge redflag on my hands.
I will be going after this one as best I can.
Please advise.

Opt

Yeah, I was going to say, she should NOT be around ANYONE like this! You HAVE to have a talk with this friend, and beg her if you have to not to show men like this creep to WW right now!

IIWY, I would do my best to keep her away from the friend, too.

I think if I were you, I'd find a really good, on-call babysitter you can call every time your wife goes out, and go out with her. If she doesn't like that, then you go separately, and hang out at the same place.

If she doesn't like THAT, then you say, you have shown me no reason to trust you yet. You don't GET trust from me until you prove you can earn it. Talking to divorcing men is not a reason for trust.

There's a difference between Plan A and doormat. You can Plan A but not accept wayward behavior.

She NEEDS you to be strong right now.

Opt,

My sister's WH also had the fantasy that he could continue to live in the home, they would separate and he could go right on conducting his A. When my sister told him that this would not be happening and explained they would not be friends and that it would not be a nice divorce, it seemed to defog him. I think armymama had a similar experience with her WH.

However with your OM living right on the street, I just don't know if you CAN defog your WW. Then add in the fact that she may still be hostile about your exposure, I am just not sure how you should handle this other than to let her know you aren't interested in a D.

I would not wait to read all the MB books before you call Steve. I would just schedule the appt right away.

Opt,

This makes NO sense to me???....why would you think you need a firm grasp of the concepts BEFORE you even schedule???

Did you do this with your CURRENT counselor??.....I bet not..

If you injure your arm, do you feel the need to "grasp" the lingo the Dr. will tell you BEFORE you get it fixed???.....

Just make that call and get YOU on the experts path....Remember, the Harley's are the experts, the boards are not.....both Steve and Jennifer are better equipped to tell you HOW you should be persuing this than we are.....


This is WHY you need to go to the EXPERTS.....the one who came up with the road plans to Recovery....


Then CALL THE HARLEY'S!!!!!!!!!!!!

Your wife is in cake-eating mode. Of course she wants you to do this for 6 months, while she sits on her butt doing as she pleases, while you Plan A and resentment building along the way.......She is going out because she is a foggy, entitled wayward who does not want to OWN up to what she has/is doing. This going out is another chasing of the high. The high she got from the neighbor. Her addiction. And now she is looking for something to replace it.......and IF you seriously want to save this marriage, your BEST bet would be to get rid of this joker of a counselor (and WHY did you buy him a copy of SAA???...aren't you spending enough of your hard earned money on this man?????....) and call the HARLEY'S........

not2fun

ps....I expect you will find many nights like last night to happen again and again......

OMG HOW CAN YOU GUYS POSSIBLY BE SO RIGHT ABOUT EVERYTHING!?

Hung out as "a family" last night at the club. The coast was clear, so I figured around 8:30 I better get the kids home, and allowed my WW to continue her conversation with a woman she had just met from England. After I put the kids to bed (and I read this post) I started thinking maybe she really should be encouraged to come home and be with her family. So I hopped in the car and ran up there (4 minutes away). Guess who happened to show up, evidently just minutes after I left?!

Yup, the guy from Friday night. She started saying some crap about real estate and it's an innocent conversation. (yeh, whatever). When I reminded her she's a married woman she retorted "no I'm not." WOW! (right out of the WW hand book??)
(Of course I also took the opportunity to tell him he had a lot of nerve talking to a married woman about her marriage without me present, all in front of his friends.)

Anyway. I'm calling the Harleys this am. Independent Behavior? You Bet. Necessary to save [or re-evaluate?) my marriage? Absolutely.

Opt.

Okay, I have an appointment with Steve for Wednesday am. Now I'm stuck in limbo. A bad kind of limbo and I really need help right now.

I got a text from WW at 3 saying "I'm falling apart." I dropped everything I was doing and headed home. I was hoping by some miracle the fog was beginning to lift and she was going to tell me she realized what she was doing was wrong and not good for our marriage.
Unfortunately, that was not what was on her mind.
She was completely "humiliated" by my behavior last night (showing up at the club) and doesn't even want to show her face there anymore (that's a plus...). She insists I was out of line and that the conversation was purely innocent, in addition there was a third party there (granted).
I didn't know what to say. I'm trying to Plan A, but I don't want to be a 'door mat'.
Although I remained calm, our conversation rapidly deteriorated and ended with me stating that we were either going to work on our marriage or we would be working on a divorce; no in between B.S. with her pretending she's married only when it's convenient for her.
I don't know anything about Plan B. I had hoped it hadn't gotten to this so quickly (11 days since NC with OM).

I just spent $800 on 5 consults. I also took the liberty of grabbing whatever little money is left in the joint account (2g) (she had originally taken 10 G after the exposure....one of those steps I neglected). There won't be money for the mortgage. I plan to tell her to unbury the money she took last month and I'm really not worried about my credit rating b/c she's going to ruin me financially anyway.


How bad did I screw up? And what do I do until the consult with Steve?

(Not so much) Optimism

Opt,

You didn't screw up THAT bad. Heck, I did WAY worse in Plan A. And yet, here I am in R today.....

As far as what to do until Wed., keep Plan A'ing. I'll give you some simply rules to follow during these next 2 day....

1. Avoid all Love Busters.....

2. Meet all Emotional Needs.....

3. NO EXPECTATIONS.....


Do not talk about affair/marriage/divorce/relationship. AT ALL!!!!....

If she brings it up, just tell her you don't want to talk about that right now and then change the subject. Or leave the room.......

Be as loving, cheerful and positive as possible. The only thing you can control is YOU.

As far as making the appt.....VERY GOOD. You are getting the best help out there. Steve will be able to guide you through everything. And he can do it much better than we can.....LISTEN CLOSELY....


Because your WW is a garden variety wayward. She is doing nothing that we all haven't seen before. Your situation isn't unusual nor special. It happens ALL the time.

Just stick to the plans, and you'll do fine until your appt. Make some family plans for tomorrow night. Do something fun, like bowling.

not2fun

If I were you, I would be tearing the house apart to find that $10,000! Good grief!

IMO, THIS is what your problem is. You are acting like a scared kitty cat. Oh no, I can't upset her!

There's a big difference, IMO, in how WWs and WHs react. WHs react best when the BW calmly tells him to get out of her life; men don't WANT to have to take care of themselves - that's the cake they want.

WWs react best when the BH gets MAD, takes SWIFT action, and takes no prisoners. Women need strong men. They HATE accommodating, nice, understanding men. They lose ALL respect for BHs who try to kiss up to them.

JMO, but it's time for you to man up and tell her what this house together WILL look like, if she chooses to stay there with you and her kids. If she doesn't like it, there's the door - WITHOUT her children.

Thanks NTF for the encouragement.
It's very hard to stay out of the relationship talks, but I'll try.
Again tonight she said tonight she needs time and "space to clear her head." I didn't really respond, but it's just so exasperating to have to listen to this malarky.

I'm glad to know people really do get to recovery. Right now that seems like an eternity away.
opt

I understand what you're saying Cat. She might not be typical in some ways, but I like your analogy. The last part is definitely true - she has this rosey picture of divorce; I wish I could snap her out of it, but it will take time and effort I know that.
O

I'll give you some reverse babble.....


WW..."I want a divorce"....
You..."I don't do divorce, my lawyer does....wanna chip"

WW..."do you really think we belong together"....

Opt..."Yes I do...wanna watch 'Big Bang Theory'"



opt..."I agree".....

if you can't think of something....JUST WALK OUT OF THE ROOM....preferably whistling some happy tune.....

not2fun

Opt,

How did the appt. go?? Let us know what Steve said.....

Not2fun

It went pretty well. He's very good. It started with him asking some questions and me giving a history (as you might expect).
I kept notes and actually recorded myself, however I did not get his side of the conversation on tape (equipment issue). I did come home and type the notes the best I could. I will share them below. I would expect much of this comes out of the book SAA but since I just got my copy, I don't know for sure. Either way, it means a lot more and strikes harder than any printed word I should expect, when it comes directly from the author. He also is obviously able to taylor the material to the needs of the current situation.

Here are my notes from the part of the conversation after the general history part. Feel free to ask questions and I'll elaborate if I can remember specifics.
STEVE: "THE SITUATION IS NOT UNRECOVERABLE"
Analogy about two people wanting a weight loss program but being with broken legs/ car accident
MOTIVATION IS A BIG DEAL RIGHT NOW.
Problem: not in love with each other.
NEED TO TREAT THE INJURY FIRST, prior to treating the �weight loss� issue
Need to convince her by appealing to her self-serving side.
Say: (1) �I talked to someone who had an interesting idea. Would you agree that the ideal scenario for you to be truly in love with the father of your (children)?�
he explained that she would try to change the question: �that�s not possible, too late, etc.� and that I should acknowledge that but return to the original question: �don�t you agree that the IDEAL for YOU would be that you would be in love with the father of your children?�
I am working towards getting a �Yes� to this question. And that it�s all about HER happiness.
Sequentially next: (2) �I�ve found an idea that the ideal scenario CAN happen and I�d like to see how you feel about gathering information on how.� �would you say it�s worthy of further investigation?�
(3) Encourage her to talk to Steve who �knows how to work with couples like us� and �I want to look into it WITH you because I might have blind spots, �need your help.�

*Important NOTE: Do not make her feel that talking to Steve is a commitment to do anything else. There�s no expectation that your beliefs will change. I won�t take it as an indication that this R can work.

�I�d like to look into what it would take for it to be possible� and �there�s reason to believe we haven�t been doing it right in the past/ haven�t had a goal.�
We�ve been moving but not in the right direction and not toward a common goal: a MUTUALLY enjoyable marriage.

He explained that this conversation should happen ASAP.

He went on to explain that I had to stop with my REACTIONS (jealousy, suspicious behavior)/Sunday�s episode [for the board: I confronted her in front of friends....not a good plan - catapulted her away from me].
He suggested I let her know that those reactions will stop and that she can feel safe with me (even in the event of exercising her �freedom/space� - again due to she�s in self-indulgent mode at this time)
Represent the feeling/attitude that a MUTUALLY enjoyable relationship is possible.
He will act as a coach, and that�s not MY job, that�s HIS. We�re the players, he�s the 3rd person. (don�t try to explain the strategies)
Represent: �You can make me divorce you, but I can�t force you to do anything. You�re happiness is what�s in it for you and is it reasonable to simply LOOK INTO IT�


-----It was all very encouraging.

Opt

Wow, thanks so much for filling us in! I am really glad you called. I like the approach he has given you with your WW. I hope she will talk to him. Please keep us posted!