Good advice on both counts. As for her calling, I am very specific in my Plan B letter: Do not call, text, email or write. If you want to contact me, call my lawyer. The exception is that if she agrees to the NC terms, she can email me with a specific subject line ("I'm ready") and tell me where and when we should meet to discuss.

The call block goes on the phone Tuesday. I can ignore text messages and emails (hence the requirement for a specific subject line).

This evening I will see if I can't invite a friend over tomorrow for some coffee and chat.

I specified in my Plan B letter that once she had severed contact with OM, she should email me at a specific account with a specific subject line ("I'm ready"). In the email she should suggest a time and neutral place we could meet to discuss the necessary steps to move into recovery. I have made the basics known in the letter: No contact. Verifiable. Construct a plan to ensure complete separation. Discussion to reach terms on rebuilding the marriage. The rest will take place during the discussion (if that ever occurs).

She moves out tomorrow. I will probably inhabit this forum steadily for a while, at least until her absence becomes "normal."

If you feel at all frustrated, use this board. We are here to listen after all.

Thank you. As I have learned in my A.A. recovery, I benefit the most when I am of service to others. I hope that down the road, I can pay back the service that's been given to me freely. I have felt very needy at times recently, and this board has been a source of solace, strength and comfort.

The snooping, investigating, letter-writing and all have sometimes gone against my grain. But you people have taught me that "all's fair in love and war." And if I have any hope of regaining my marriage, I have to fight for it! So fight I will.

And if I lose, I'll still be the better for it.

ML, I'm sorry I didn't respond earlier. I had meant to and then got side-tracked.

I did run a background check on Intelius ($9.94) and came up appallingly blank (one unpaid traffic citation from a few years back). I found the OMW through www.reversephonedetective.com, tracking back through the OM's cell number. I'm not a real fan of these two services, as they charge for delivering paltry information (although RPD does provide GPS coordinates that one can plug into Google Maps...).

You keep your eyes on the prize. WW will thank you if you recover, thank you for saving her from herself.

"all's fair in love and war." I hate that line. I know you don't mean it in the way that I see it, but "all's fair in love and war" can justify any action...even an affair.

In fact, if all was fair in war we'd not have the Geneva and Hague Conventions.

If we in fact all was fair in love, we'd not have the institution of marriage or commitment to set a standard on acceptable actions within that frame.

Just my thing...

Frd, I have been throughthis twice,the first time about 16 years ago and the second time with my second marriage about 4 years ago, now.
My first wife was an alcoholic and, IMO, a Narcissist. I did a lot of things wrong, as it was pre-internet and I did not have access to sites like this.
In my second marriage, I did a Plan A and Plan B , to no avail, although I did them imperfectly.
In any case , my first wife, after she sobered up and after I had remarried, came to me and apologized about 7-8 years after we divorced. And, she told me she still loved me. This was after her second marriage was dying due to her abuse of her H, a nice guy.
My second ex -wife, refused counseling and had her heart set on being with the OM, a younger guy that tended bar and worked in a fcatory. However, when her relationship crumbled, she did call me and tell me she wished she had agreed to counseling.
So in both cases , there relationships did not work out and they made overtures to reconcile.
But, the timing is critical for these WSs. I read an analogy that fit. Having an affair is like having a tire blow out. If you are attentive to repair right away, the tire and rim may be saved. If you drive on it for any length of time, the whole thing is , most likely , irreparable.
I have no doubt that your wife's relationship with this OM will go up in smoke. But, if she does come around relatively soon, the damage is often too great.
I've been single about 4 years , now. You and I are about contemporaries. It is a very nice life, very peaceful and full of firendships. Dating opportunities are plentiful, if I choose.

My golf game is such that I turned professional, a lifelong dream, and I play in tournaments as a pro, now.

My kids are just fine and I have a great relationship with them all.

So, if the marriage does not work out, you will find happiness and peace, I beleive.

I never knew life could be so good, and was really down, initially, after my wife left. But, I do not miss her at all, now.

I maintained my relationships with her brothers, parents and uncles, and see them regularly. We have been on several golf trips together.

I hung in way too long in my second marriage for the kids and because I did not want a second one to fail. But, it did and I am okay.

I had a long, productive talk with WW's oldest DD today. After learning the facts, she all but confirmed WW is in relapse. In fact, she asked me if WW was drinking, as the last phone call between them WW "made no sense." I appealed to her love for her mother and told her I wanted not only to win her back, if possible, but more importantly to save her life!

Not that I'm counting on DD to do or say anything, but you folks have taught me that the message can come from anyone. I continue to inform our A.A. friends of the facts, too. WW may have thought she's free of them, but there's a pretty wide circle of people in recovery. At least in this area.

Switching gears a bit, Providence must be looking down on me, for I found a friend tonight who happened to be not working tomorrow. He agreed to come and be my witness. He asked if he should wear a referee's jersey, but I told him I only wanted him to observe and not be a participant.

I have told him my plan: When WW arrives, I will be in full Plan A mode (except I will not be helping her move her stuff). When it comes time to talk about how she can retrieve her remaining stuff, Plan B goes into effect. I am going to hand her the letter and inform her that all my requirements are in the letter.

As a counselor, she often speaks of people setting "healthy boundaries." I'm going to simply tell her I have set my healthy boundaries. I will not negotiate, nor should she (logically) be in a position to do so. I told my friend that his presence would enable me to remain calm and not rise to argument. I may feel like doing so, but I will look at him and will refrain.

Pray for me, good folks. Tomorrow is going to be tough. It's the first day of the rest of my life.

Zelmo, I hate/love reading your posts. I hate them because they present the very real possibility that all the effort I'm putting into saving this marriage may be for naught. I love them for the same reason.

You were the first to say that perhaps it would be better for me if the marriage were not saved. Again, I hate/love reading that. But I need to. I need to examine every side of the equation. I need to investigate my own fears and issues. Am I afraid of being alone? Do I really want to return to the way it was before?

No, I do not. My goal is recovery, just as in A.A. One of the slogans in A.A. is, "Sobriety is very simple. You just change everything about yourself." This life-changing event has caused me to tighten up on my A.A. principles, and work harder and try to be as thorough as I can on working the Steps.

I first spoke to my WW when on her first A.A. anniversary. Since then, we have been regular meeting goers, although I have more service commitments than she. I never thought she'd relapse, and not having been as close to anyone who has before, this was a real jolt.

Another A.A. saying is, "Every alcoholic has another drunk in them. Not every alcoholic has another recovery." This suggests that relapse may not be temporary.

Perhaps only an A.A. would understand that I wish first to save her life. Only then can I hope to save our marriage.

The point is that you CANNOT save her life.

Only SHE can do that.

HER choice is to relapse. It is not your choice since it is not your body.

I understand your point. On the other hand, without even realizing it, I have wanted to "pull my punches." You folks have told me I'm in for the fight of my life. In that regard, I'd better not pull any punches, or I'm sure to lose.

But I can help her realize that she's on the road to destruction. True, as with any recovery, the person has to WANT it. I have to try to get her to come to her senses. I cannot sit idly by while she destroys herself.

Yet Plan B dictates that I do just that. And since I want to win this trial, I will grit my teeth, ball my hands into fists and do or say nothing. This doesn't mean I can't speak with others and have them do the work in my stead.

Without the support of the good people on this board, I'm not sure I could do it.

Fred, she knows she is on the road to destruction.

But she doesn't CARE. She is having FUN.

You can't help her see anything unless she wants to see it.

Plan B dictates that she learns you won't be around all her life to pick up her pieces. That she WILL fail and hit rock bottom without you supporting her.

She NEEDS to hit rock bottom. She will never come to you with full humility until you pull back and let her fall smack in the face with the mud.

This is TOTAL sucking up on your part, and TOTALLY wrong thinking. She will NEVER grow up and become a responsible adult, if you KEEP protecting her from herself:

You forgot to add my next comment

Tomorrow afternoon, when WW leaves the house, all lines of communication between us are cut. She has written instructions on how and when to contact me. Non-negotiable.

My letter states that I am doing this to preserve myself, and so I am. It's possible she will never return. And I have to accept that possibility.

Good. Sounds like you're learning.

Believe me. Fred, I had a ton of fear going into this. I got peace when I fully accepted that I did not cause it, I could not control it, and I could not cure it. I had/have a fair amount of sadness about watching my wife destroy herself and our marriage.
But, she was terribly abusive and just would not stop. WTF can one do under those circumstances.
I watched my dad drink himself into a mess , as well as my first wife. And there was not a darn thing I could do about either person's decision to go this route.

Leaving my marriage was tough, but I did not want to go down with the ship. My kids need me around and need money.

I know how difficult this is. No contact makes it somewhat easier and is the best way to go. Good luck.

Fred,

I have read your comments and I truly am sorry for what you are going through...been there too.

Listen--there are waywards, and there are waywards-with-predisposing-problems. I know none of us are perfect and we ALL have made mistakes & done things we regret in our lives. But... some people carry so much pre-existing baggage that, when they become wayward, they really GO OFF THE DEEP END. Irretrievably and irreversibly (at least for the practical purposes of a desirable relationship recovery). I have come to learn and accept this, both about waywards in general and about my own (now) xWW. Here are some things IMHO that are historical major "red flags" in some waywards (WWs in particular) that make REAL recovery all the more difficult:

Dysfunctional childhood/upbringing
Dysfunctional family/parental relationships persisting into adulthood
Drug abuse
Excessive alcohol use/abuse
Past incest/sexual abuse
Excessive attention-seeking/drama-creation
Pre-marital sexual promiscuity or precociousness
History of 'overlapping relationships'
More than 1 affair (current A is not the 1st)
Insecurity, immaturity, low self-esteem, co-dependency
Excessive flirtatiousness/need for romantic validation
Poor communication skills/"expectation of clairvoyance" from others
"Facade maneuvers"--bravado, braggardness, name-dropping, unjustified bombasity
"Splitting" of people into good and bad camps w/o proper nuance and fairness
Repeat marriages, especially in short order (was their ex REALLY at fault as they say?)
Lack of introspection/inability to admit fault or error, even for trivial things
Casual, frequent "white-lies" (because telling the truth might actually require self-confidence)


I would ask any BS to take a long, hard look at this list and if you clearly recognize say 3 or more of these characteristics (and you WILL KNOW, believe me), strongly consider whether you even want to TRY to save this marriage...because these WSs are likely very damaged people with a tremendous amount of personal work to do BEFORE they can ever be real partners even AFTER the affair ends.