It's possible he's been given legal advice to do so.

Mulan and catperson, thanks for your replies - legal advice - I doubt it - knowing him I don't think he has done anything on the legal side yet - he hasn't even gone to the bank yet to take me out of his accont - he wants to wait until after X-Mas - why wait, I have no idea. It has been like this for the last 4 years since he works abroad - beside working he hasn't really gotten involved in anyting else.


I think what I will do when he is in Ireland next - I won' be available much, will ask him to take the kids so I can go out i.e. It can't be like the last time he was in Ireland and I was basically waiting for him all the time.

That will be different from now on...

Mulan, you are correct about Plan B - I hope to be in Plan B in January latest

I don't feel confident about giving you advice towards reconciliation. This guy is doing whatever he feels good about. To bad his life is all about him.

I was married at 18 and not because she was pregnant although who would believe that lol. We were together in high school and were dedicated to each other. As a 18 yr old kid I really didn't have the maturity to realize what a commitment marriage was but we made plans to stand by each other.

She was on the pill and the agreement was that we would not have kids till we were established with jobs/carreers etc. She stopped taking the pill without telling me and we had a child on the way.
Let me tell ya.. That changed everything for me. I couldn't afford to mess around with my life now Anything but what was good for our child had to take a back seat. I was a hard working and seriuos young man after that because I needed to be. It was time to put childish things aside.

I was now responsible for not only the food and shelter of a newborn. I also knew that children need more than just a roof over thier head. They needed to be loved.

It was a seriuos turn in my life and took a toll on my marriage. I compared everything I did in my personal life to what would be right for our child. I had experienced first hand what it felt like to have a Dad who was so wrapped up in what he wanted, at the expense of what his children needed, and I wasn't gonna be that guy.

What a child needs is a relationship with thier father. (from a fathers point of view) They need to know that he cares for them more than they can know. I thought about the sacrifices people make for thier children when children don't even recognize it. I knew that when a child felt valued by thier parents they were not afraid to listen to them. If I was going to be a good father to them I needed to be a grown up. Looking for ways to puff up my ego was not a grown up activity and would only waste time in maturing.

I was so seriuos I don't think my first wife understood what happened to me. I went from a freewheeling socializing guy to Mr. stay- at- home- work- two- jobs.
I was faithful to her and completely honest also. Bringing a child into the world scared me so strait-laced that any thought of screwing around was replaced with. "Do the right thing, you will only have peace if you do, and you will be happy you did in the long run".
This doesn't mean that I was not tempted by the opposite sex, I was attractive and had many opportunitys and hey it was the sexual seventies,
I just could not treat sexual relationships like a sporting event and from what i saw in people who did, I didn't want to. Broken marriages, confused children wondering what was love anyway, people building up alliances in affairs that made them blame thier spouse for all thier problems. It just didn't seem the way to go for me. I wanted reality, honesty, commitment, compassion and the truth to rule my life. Yeah its idealistic, but I only lived once, why not shoot for the stars?
I was self-righteous when it came to these things but I kept it mostly to myself. I didn't put people down or judge them, I just deferred not to be a partier.
My first wife eventually,(when our son was 1 1/2 yrs old), got tired of my seriuos no-frills lifestyle and had an affair. She was young,(20). I fell apart.
I was giving up and she came back. After 3 weeks she told me she was pregnant..but she was sure it was mine.. It wasn't.. It wasn't the childs fault. I even don't blame her. It hurt me real bad tho.
I treated her right and with respect but eventually after the child was born and she saw he was from the ethnic group the father was from, and she could not warm up to or care for the baby. We decided to let him be adopted.

Inside two years we were separated and divorced later. My first son was 5 and in the 5 years I was with him I spent a lot of time with him. Playing, reading, changing, doctors, feeding and I was looking foward to the day when he became a well rounded young man who handled his life with a balance. Not like me. I did not know yet what a good father was but I knew it was the most important thing I could be.

There was this question posed to a friend of mine when he was thinking of being married to a woman that belonged to a church by the clergy.. It went like this..
"In a marriage, what is more important, that you love your wife?, or love your children?"
My friend said "Love your children of course"
The clergy said, " No, Love your wife, If you can truly love your wife, you automatically will love your children"

After some thought I understood why, Love can be difficult to give to someone that your not sure loves you. or maybe they aren't loving you this week..or maybe you just take them for granted and don't see it sometimes. Someone that you are on equal ground with and shares all the personal desires,hopes, and dreams with you is very close. Its hard when they break your heart with some callous remark or action. Can you love them even then? It seems to me that honest communication and selfless caring for each other would be the answer but we all don't run at 100% all the time so there are times when we will hurt each other. We will make mistakes and we need to be honest about them for our sakes as well as the ones we are closest to.

It took 15 yrs,(when I was 35) for me to realize I should have fought for my first marriage. I was by that time remarried and had three more children. I was talking to my first son on the phone who I hadn't seen since he was 7 yrs old and I told him that. He said it was OK and he was fine.

His Mom did a good job with him, and she assured him I loved him. My big dreams of flying out to see him while he was growing up never happened and I missed out on being his father. That was my punishment, self induced,

I had a new family and I was the only breadwinner. I struggled to keep a roof over our head and still couldn't hold my head up because I worried over more than i could handle.
I had met my second wife 16 years earlier and despite some real hard issues we had to deal with we at that time had a miracle for a marriage. Our Family was the most important thing we had in our lives and we were all so close. We went to church and prayed together. Both her and I had a relationship with God that we detirmined ourselves to maintain individually and together and we encouraged our children to seek God in thier heart and thier minds.
God reachs out to us because we need God. We are flawed in our natural man. Its not our fault we are not perfect. Its part of the plan for us to learn. Once we know we are then accountable to make good choices. We will reap what we sow.
Regaurdless we still had some issues between us my wife and I. Unrealistic expectations I would say were the worst of the issues.

I am 52 yrs old now. Its been six months since my wife passed away from cancer. In the last ten years of her life she made some desperate choices that were hurting all of us. I had to be honest with my children about some of the stuff she did. Assuring them that what she did hurt me too and that it wasn't thier fault. My youngest was 8 yrs old when Mom started to lose it. She died 3 months after he turned 18 and he still felt like he should have saved her.
He is adjusting along with the other two. My 25 yr old daughter has a two year old and it is so hard for her to not have her mom. The emotional drama of the last ten years has taken its toll on us but none of us are unrealistic or bitter. My 18 year old has had the lonliest time of it and is hard to reach but as I recover from grief and whatever personal collateral damage I hope to be an example for him as I allways tried to be.

You see my wifes parents were the worst pieces of crap. Her mother was an extremem alcoholic and Her dad was an selfish obnoxious bully. Somewhere inside her she had something to prove. Maybe to them, maybe for them, I don't know but I know she had this angry streak based in insecurity. They had affected her and she just never got secure enough. I saw this streak when I first was dating her and instead of just being her friend I thought I could be her hero. (Fools rush in..)I could see this beautiful child in her that never felt loved completly. I did the best I could but in the end its Gods love that worked for her. She was the most amazing gifted and sensitive loving person who would give you her last dollar. Also one of the most intellegent, patriotic, nurturing, understanding and in so many ways wise counselor. She just didn't want to or was afraid of being like the rest of us poor slobs who have to live by rules. She lied and bullshitted because she thought she had to? I don't know lol, when i called her on it it was a world war and well I was working and supporting her and three children. I had to pick my battles between shifts.
She loved us all well, served us with passion. Allways thought of us but would not take care of herself. Did I mention that when she walked into a room she turned heads? Does that matter? not to me but it was more of a curse to her than a blessing. Her Mom was the same, and my wife lived in absolute terror of turning out like her Mom.

In the last ten years of her life I had to be truthful with my children when it became painfully obvious Mom had abandoned her family. Im not talking just me.It was clear to them this woman was not their Mom. It was Jeykl and hyde They were big kids and they could see Mom lieing to them and making bad choices. Ones that Mom used to warn them about. My children were forced to take on roles to early for them. I encouraged them to love Mom and to respect her and to pray for her full recovery.

The last two years of my wifes life she was just trying to get her head above water. She was home but not in the best of health. She was trying to be the bundle of energy she was 15 years ago and her heart was in the right place. The children were well aware of what mistakes she had made and never brought it up to her. We all just wanted her to be well again, to get treatment for whatever caused her such fear. We all wanted to go fishing and have holidays together again.

I didn't reveal all my wifes issues to my children but I didn't let it all be a mystery that would haunt them either.

So here is what I wanted to say about the children and your husbands affairs.
Let them know that Dad is just stroking his (ahem) "Ego" that he is being selfish.
Assure them that you will never leave them. That you would die before you would let them be hurt.
Let them know that love is a decision not a feeling and that actions speak louder than words.
Above all, God forgives, we all make mistakes, and if Dad knew how much he was hurting them he would do something about it.

It sounds to me that Hubby is just getting away with what he can because he can. You sound like a awesome woman go find someone else if he leaves. His loss. But I hope you can save the marraige.. for everyones sake

sortingitout, thanks so much for sharing your story and I am very sorry to hear about the loss of your wife.

You are correct,WH is getting away with far too much - when he came up with the idea of working abroad 4 years ago it didn't even crosss my mind to say "No" even though I had a bad feeling about it from the beginning.
You see, his mate who he got his first job abroad through - I never liked him - one of the most rude people I have ever met - he would speak badly about his wife in public when she wasn't around - it was awful - we attended a wedding together 1 year before my husband went abroad - my husband was the best man and his mate was seated at my table - I will never never forget the way he spoke about his wife - all women at the table were appalled and shocked - he basically said all the things my husband is now saying about me - he is just more clever - he doesn't say it out loud in public but only to selected individuals. It's a little bit like history repeating itself.
His mate left his wife too and is now giving WH good advice how to handle the divorce - he told him to document everything from now on and that things will get worse before they get better.
He also adviced him how to get around an irish divorce and going the quick way like he did at the time. I never understood the friendship between the 2 - I remember at that wedding telling my husband about what he had said and he got very defensive of him, saying:"that's just the way they are with each other." I found that hard to believe but I have never met her, so...

I have a very hard time dealing with my WH - I don't know how to be cold - I am just nice - the best word to describe me I suppose which is not good in this situation. He can read me like an open book, always could. I have made mistakes in our marriage, I got carried away with the new "wealth" which came with him working abroad and I am working hard on elimination these mistakes and not to repeat them. It just doesn't seem enough to get my marriage back. I mean nobody knows what effect my Plan A has on him right now, only he does. I feel like I am fighting against the unknown - I'd rather have a face to put on it to be honest.

I made the mistake that I gave almost all my snooping techniques away - I always felt that when I confronted him I had to explain how I got the information - I don't know why that is. That leaves me now in the situation that I have no clue what he is doing since August, absolutely none.

About being to nice well here is a story..

When my first wife was pregnant with the child concieved from an affair, I was very hurt and thoght,
"well now does it make sense now to have an affair with one of these women who are flirting with me?"
I was working at a small company and the people who were running it were the average "party on the weekends" type. There was a woman who had the hots for me, and I guess a few of the guys from what I could tell had fooled around with her. I got to know her well and she was married to an alcoholic, they had 3 kids and from what i saw her burned out hubby didn't make her happy anymore. So I guess her solution was to have relationships outside marriage. She had made a lot of hints and flirting towards me and thier were oportunnitys to have some one-nighters.
I told myself I needed to fool around with someone to feel better. I was 21 and she was 30. I just wanted to feel normal again and stop the pain of betrayal so i entertained the temptation and tried to bring myself to indulge.
I really treid to make it happen but I couldn't. I went to a psycologist to find out why..I was a healthy, attractive, guy who loved sex. I wanted to sleep with her. I had every excuse to,(based on what was done to me as I saw it), and I thought there was something wrong with me.
When I told the psycologist he laughed, (It was embarrassing to me that he laughed and that didn't help my ego much lol) he said:

"So what you are telling me is.. you are upset with yourself because you have morals.."

That has stuck with me ever since then and after time went by I realized that I was blessed to have them. To try to make myself "feel" better just on sex with someone went against the kind of guy I was. I just don't work like that. I was a "nice" guy, and I was married. The marriage commitment was important to me and although i was a real emotional mess, being a liar and a cheat would not have helped. It would have made things worse for me, my wife, and child. As much as I tried I couldn't do it.
In the 70's sex was the new fun hobby and everyone was sleeping with everyone else it seemed. I was "to serious" I thoght. But now lets fast-foward to after my first wife and I weren't together anymore..
At the ages between 23-26 I had dated a lot of girls and having sex with them was not a problem. I tried to develop a more relaxed attitude about it so I could feel "normal" I stayed away from wild orgys and I was not someone who lied to women to sleep with them. I was up front about sex and honest. I dated the girls I slept with and told them I didn't want a seriuos relationship. If they didn't want to sleep with me that was fine. I said if they didn't enjoy it then they shouldn't do it and don't blame me. I could spend time with women and not have to sleep with them so it didn't matter. What seemed to be the solution in my new philosophy was really a way to lie to myself. Sex really wasn't that great anymore and was missing something.

What was missing was the personal intimacy in relationships that made sex great. I was still trying to make myself into someone I wasn't. I was trying to "toughen myself up","stop being so seriuos","lighten up". Sex was now "just sex" because I had made it that way. Why? so I wouldn't be hurt again and could keep relationships at arms length.

To go along with my other wrong thinking at the time ... I still had some belief at that time that sex "deepened" the relationship or helped "seal" the emotional bond between between two people and would help in intimatcy issues. I thought it would promote trust in someone you really cared for and bring more honest communication which would make you stronger as a couple.

Well I can say now that the emotional health of the person you are with is what detirmines what sex is to them. Its so important to be honest with your mate about what sex is to you but it matters greatly if you know what it means to you. When i talked to my children about sex I let them know that when they get older they will realize the act of sex would not be important to them as the person they were with. Loving someone and giving yourself to them fully and being able to be there for someone through anything is when sex is great.

The opposite of that is using someone to make yourself feel better, like having control.

I hope that you can understand why I said all this. I made the mistake of thinking i was "too nice" and tried to change myself into someone callous and numb. It caused more trouble for me and in the end I learned some hard lessons.

Your husband and his wingman are fighting a losing battle to stay on top of what they believe in. Learn from this and be wise. Don't let his bullcrap ruin your self esteem. He is screwing up, let him own it. I wouldn't try to reason with him by telling him "why" you do anything. You have a chance to live in the truth that love is what you do for someone not what they do for you. He is not even coming close to being real so let him go. You can still love him even though he doesn't know how to love. We do it for our children all the time as parents. Just don't let him rope you into feeling its your fault. Marriage is hard work and both have to work at it because we face fears and emotional trials individually as well as together. I don't care what he wants to blame you for he isn't even trying.

You really don't need him. Even though you don't knowit yet you will be OK without him. Once he sees you being healthy and happy without him he will probably get real interested because he doesn't control you anymore. He might try to get back in your life again to regain control but he still won' t be able to have a good marraige with you unless he stops the lieing and that doesn't seem likely.

Well I guess i went on again I hope this helps. Don,t let anything make you feel bad about how "nice" you are. Be careful that he doesn't make you feel that because you are trying to communicate that you are foolish. It takes guts to work at a marraige.

I am reminded of this quote :
Theres your side of the story, and there is thier side of the story.. and theres the truth.

The 'story" is ussually the story of what they did to us, what they did wrong to hurt us. What we allowed sometimes when we had a chance to let it go away, and what we let it do to us internally.

Makes me think.. All I need is the truth.. I will be fine if alone as long as I seek that.

sortingitout, I also believe finding out the truth will help me a lot - and as it won't come from him I have to find it myself and I will. It's just a matter of time...
I am just wondering was it really worth it to lose his wife and 2 kids over a lie??? I can't really grasp that yet.
I don't think there were any problems in our marriage we couldn't work on and I for my part have started improving my part. I can't control him, I can just hope that one day he will wake up and I hope it won't be too late then...

Ditto

We are having very bad rain in our town for weeks and as a result last night some houses started to be flooded.
Now we are fine for the moment but we are preparing for the weekend - bad forecast - the army supplied sand bags already this morning and my garden looked like a swimming pool

Now the kids and myself are moving all our stuff all day upstairs - I am exhausted - and that 5 weeks before X-Mas - honestly I am not sure how much more I can take this year - if oue house gets flooded I might just take move to Spain or some other place without rain

I've heard the rain in Spain falls mainly on the plain...

haha

Lol I hope that you are surviving the rain, I also hope you have found the support of real friends close-by and have a local house of worship to attend. Thank God your children have you.
Hang in there and if the rains wash away your PC go to a library and keep us posted. My prayers are with you.

sortingitout, thanks - we are fine so far - all our belongings are upstairs so all downstairs rooms are empty - I am not sure when it will be safe to move them back down - there are people here who have lost everything
I am keeping in touch with my friends by phone - if I have learnt one thing over the last few months - I know now who my real friends are - I am even closer to my neighbours now would you believe it
My MIL got in touch with me too to see if we are ok and WH called yesterday evening also.At least him and me can talk again which is nice - he gave me his new address for his new flat to send him something.Maybe he has lost the fear of me sending a PI over there again.I didn't think I would get that new address

I had my MIL and FIL over for a visit today - this was the first time I have seen FIL since our split in June - he is a very quiet man - not the best of health - WH wasn't mentioned once all afternoon - really weird because I don't mind talking about him - we are getting on better now then we have in months.
I'd say the real test will come once he is back in Ireland for X-Mas. Will see then if his attitude has really changed.

I was picking my youngest DS up from school today and the teacher called me in to talk to me - that was a first let me tell you - he hasn't settled in at all since September and is constantly interrupting her and the class and she is at him every day for the last 3 months.His work is excellent but the behaviour a disaster - he never had problems like this before.
She knew about our separation - will see what I can do now...

My Dad was involved in his own ego issues when I was a kid and when I could see the problems between my Parents Mom would not talk bad about dad but when I asked questions she would tell me whatever she felt I could understand. Stuff like "yes I know, I don't know what his problem is" or When I asked if he loved me she would say "He loves you but in his own way'
As I got older she would be honest that he was selfish and had problems. She also let me be part of the pain she went through. She didn't cry to me but it was obvious that we were all hurting. So I had someone to share the pain with.
Assure him that people don't leave someone they love and that its not fair. Show him you will never leave and how happy you are to be his Mom. That you love being there for him and helping him in anything and you are there if he ever needs to talk.

Children love their family and it scares them if they think its going to go away. They almost allways feel its their fault when parents separate. Make sure he knows he is not to blame and that daddy didn't stop loving him.

When he is looking for someone or something to blame. Blame your husbands wrong thinking. You don't have to get into details about it. But just stand on the fact that it isn't fair but people can sometimes make mistakes. Stay positive and assure him that you guys will come though it. You and your kids will benifet from the integrity in how you handle this.
You stay close to the kids and let Dad explain why he is leaving. I don't know what kind of yarn he will spin but in the long run your kids will respond to the truth.

My wife and daughter were very close. Its been 6 months now that Mom has gone but she still misses her mom every day.
My daughter was 16 when my wife started to change in front of her eyes. My daughter was 19 when my wife invited her and her boyfreind over to dinner at my WW BF house. My wife was telling my daughter at dinner about how they were going to buy another house together and yadeyadeyada and my daughter told her when they finished. "Thats great Mom but we will never visit" as kind as she could be about it.
My two boys lived there also and I was so afraid of losing them too. It was just the state I was in. My children were polite and respectful but they hated everything about the situation. A few years later I told my now 22 yr old about how much it scared me that he would become my 2 boys father and he laughed and said clearly " That man could NEVER be my father".

This is a touchy subject for me because I absolutly hate it when men leave their children. I would seek as much support from agencys and organizations that you can in your area as well as any help given here.

Hi sortingitout, I got a number of an organization who deals with kids going through separations - they do counseling - so will check that out.I had no clue what was going on in school for the last few months, having said that I wasn't too surprised either yesterday when she told me.The teacher was saying he never stops to talk, ever...
I spoke to DS yesterday and he doesn't want his dad to know.

Is he afraid that dad will love him less? Its something to look into. Kids can deal with the truth and will understand good behavior and consequences.

My youngest son was 8 years old when Mom started drinking again hard. I could see that the change in her effected him but he wasn't saying much about it. He leans toward introvertion.
I took him for a ride with me and explained to him the best I could about his Moms alcoholism. I had never revealed it to my children in the past because she she had not fallen into drinking this hard since they were born. There were isolated incidents but most of thier life Mom was awesome and allways there for them. Now there was a problem that they saw and the damage thier own imagination could do to them worried me more than the truth.
We had moved back to her home state because her foster Mom,(the only real Mom she knew), was dieing from cancer. It was a totally different world there. Everybody drank. My son knew that everyones drinking was drawing his Mom into it also. He could see that Mom was not listening to me about how extreme it was getting. DS blew up at all the drinking aquaitences a couple times and really hated them and drinking because he saw what it did to his Mom.

By me talking to him about the problem before his emotions and imagination took a toll on him I helped him to understand that his Moms outrageous behavior was a product of poor choices . I also kept the door open for communication so he would not be afraid to ask questions. He allready knew that Mom was acting selfish and she was not being fair anymore. He needed to know that I hated it too. "Hate the sin,not the sinner".
People can put thier own spin on why they do the selfish things they do. Its our nature to rationalize and justify our bad decisions and behavior untill the consequences come crashing down to bring us back to reality. Alcoholics are no different than anyone else in this. This was not the way I wanted my children to be educated about this but he/they deserved the truth.

I assured him that I was not going anywhere and that I would continue to try to get mom into therapy and that I was not going to stop loving her or the rest ofthe family.

My son is now a1lmost 19 and in the years to follow after that convo he saw more heartaches to come in our family. I could blame it all on Moms alcoholism but in reality it was the choices she made. Through it all he had hard times and desparate emotional times but allways knew I stood by him. He knows the Mom that was strong and loved him and the mixed up mess of a Mom that loved him. He is a responsible young man who is working out his life and the loss of his Mom with compassion and faith. His anger issues have faded away.

In all the confusion that was introduced to our family I feel strongly that him knowing the truth about the situation with his Mom helped him to work out his life positivly.
I suggest you give your son some kind of understanding of the situation without going into to much detail that would upset him to much. You will need to seek counsel on that but you are the best judge in how this is effecting him.

I think DS is afraid he will get into trouble with his dad - and he is correct
I will talk to WH when he is Ireland for X-Mas - there is no point me telling him though that it is a result of our marriage troubles - he will not accept that anyway.
I think I will just give him the facts and we work together on a plan of action.

The other shoe just dropped - I was just waiting for it.

We are 2 months behind on our mortgage so I handled out a deal with the bank to pay interest only for 6 months from this month on and pay off the debt little by little. WH signed the forms 2 days ago and sent it back to me.

So today I took the money out of oour account and paid the bank.
And WH just sent me the following texts:

"ok, as I saw from your email you projected to spend xxx Euros this week so why is there a withdrawal of xxx Euros this morning?" I answered that I paid the mortgage today as per agreeement he signed - and then another text: "asking first might have been nice. I am off for a week from sunday and would have liked to come home but the finances are low again."

I have an appointment with my lawyer first thing tomorrow moening to ask for support - I have been still using our joint account up to now and sent him the outgoings weekly by email which worked really well up to today.Why did I have to ask him - he sent the form 2 days ago - we will loose the house if we are further behind...

Am very close to Plan B now - just have to get through X-Mas and after that I go dark.