Gack: I was actually referring to NNED. He actually admitted to having an A several years ago, prior to his W's A. I was in no way referring to you or your situation.

I disagree with the your assertion that an A that does not involve an OC is not as bad as one that does. Try to explain to the families of those 5 people killed in your plane crash that the tragedy wasn't that bad, since only 5 people were killed. To the families of those 5, that would still be the most tragic thing imaginable. Their pain would be no less severe at the loss of their loved-one.

Yes, an a with an OC is different, but the pain caused by an A is just as great with no OC involved. Trust me, I've been there.

I did not think so, I just wanted to make sure.

You keep saying "Not that bad"
You are the only person saying that. An affair is a horrable terrible painfull thing. But an affair with an OC is worse, especially when it comes to recovery.

Unless I missed somthing, no you have not.

Your H had an affair years ago, but he did not produce an OC.
(Or am I confused)

So why are you so certain that an affair with an OC is not any harder from the BS's standpaint, especially when it comes to recovery, than a standard affair?

To me, it sounds like you are trying to alleviate some of your guilt from your affair that did produce an O.C. by making it no worse than a standard affair.

I'm sory, as a B.S. raising a O.C. i can tell you, when it comes to recovery an O.C. makes things much harder, and more painfull for the BS.

>makes things much harder, and more painfull for the BS.


I would say the same. It is not insurmountable, and FOR ME it's had a full measure of blessings, but it is SO hard.

I guess that just hasn't been my experience. My H and I have talked about this at length, and in our situation, the pain he experienced didn't seem to be much worse than my own. Different, yes, but not worse. But maybe my situation was unique, in that my H's A lasted for 10 years. I was aware of his feelings for much of that time, and having to live with the knowledge that my H was in love with someone else for that long was extremely painful. I endured years of him talking to her on the phone, emailing her, leaving our family to go rescue her every time she got into another domestic spat with her H, having to listen to countless confessions from my H every time something they did crossed the line (because he didn't think being in an EA was all that wrong and only felt guilty about things when they got physical). No, my H didn't have an OC with his OW (though I had my questions about this a few times), so I don't know what that feels like. I do, however, know what my own feelings were like during those 10 years, and sometimes, it feels like people are trying to minimize that by saying it wasn't as "hard" as what my H had to deal with during my A. It wasn't the SAME, no, but I disagree that it wasn't as HARD.

The strange thing is, my H now tends to focus on the blessing that came into our lives because of my A, and that is our little daughter. She has brought an immeasurable amount of joy and happiness to our household. He has said many times that he simply couldn't imagine our lives now without her, and I feel the same.

Gack, the thing is, you have no idea what recovering a M after an A without an OC is like, because you've never done it. My H and I have experienced it both ways, and with or without an OC, I can guarantee you that R is a rocky and very difficult journey. I think our M is actually in a much better place now than it was in the years after the end of my H's A, because we did nothing to repair our M then. We had nothing like MB to guide us, and we made all kinds of mistakes. Finding this site actually allowed us to reach a place that I never thought we could reach, so maybe that's why the R after my A seems to be going so much more smoothly than what happened during/after my H's A.

Well what can I say, your experience is different than mine.

Unlike your husband, I have no guilt from a previous affair. I have been loyal to my wife since before we where married.

I'm sorry, I just think you are wrong. Maybe not in your specific case where there are affairs by both parties and a long term affair by the non bio before the OC.

But in a single affair situation with an OC (which is the norm) I think you are wrong, and most seem to agree with me.

Gack, I just don't want to minimize anyone's pain. I've read so many stories on this site, some that involved an OC and many that did not, and the pain felt by the BS seems very deep in either of these situations. It's very difficult, and not terribly productive, to attempt to quantify another person's pain and suffering.

I will agree that an OC adds a complicating factor to the R of a M, but I agree with Dealan-De that it is not an insurmountable one.

Writer1,

Yes, an a with an OC is different, but the pain caused by an A is just as great with no OC involved. Trust me, I've been there.

I agree that in your case your H's affair softens the blow of having an OC. You seem a bit insensitive to what he is going through because in Gacks case, he must........

live with a constant reminder of the OMs' DNA,

risk other people commenting on the appearance of the child,

Either lie about the childs true parentage or admit he was a cuckold to the world. Possibly having to lie to his own family members who think OC is his. The kind of choices nobody should ever have to make.

Risk the OM having a change of heart and trying to re-enter the childs life.

I was an OC myself similar to Gacks OC, and my Mother ended up trying to commit suicide and in a mental hospital. I doubt the divorce would have happened had it been a simple affair, my First Legal father had a really hard time with it.

God Bless
NJ

NJ: That's just what I'm talking about. "Simple Affair?" That really does minimize the experience. There is nothing simple about any A, and many people are unable to overcome the pain of an A, with or without an OC, and end up D'd.

Sorry. I don't agree with this. I think an affair that produces a child is much more painful than one that doesn't. Of course, we are talking degrees of pain because they are both horrible.

But recovery becomes much more difficult for the BS with an OC. Much more. The OW cannot disappear out of the BS life when the affair is over. The OC creates a connection to the OW and the recovered family forever. If there is not shared custody and CS, then there is at least CS. That effects the BS for 18 years. And while the OC deserves the money, it can have a profound and monthly effect on the BS and the family as it is drawn out of the bank account.

Plus, the emotional toll and extra child of your H's running around takes on a person. Much harder to get past than just the affair. What about the ladies who were hoping to have their H's first child? That's gone forever. And if they are able to recover the marriage, that can be a constant sore spot........even if they have moved on in their life. What about the women who have not been able to have a child? Now, OW has taken that role as provider of offspring for the H. Much harder than just the affair.

How about the trauma it causes the WH? While both he and OW are the source of the problem and caused it for themselves and others. The internal conflict is tremendous, if the man cares at all about the OC. The pull between OW/OC and BW/COM is painful at best, since there isn't a pain free solution and the guilt is huge. Much more than just an affair. Now, the COM and OC's lives are dramatically affected by the affair and decisions after.

How about the drama that many OW continue to cause in the life of the BS/FWH? Its a rarity that this does not happen and I think it is just about only those OW who are married and stay with their H's. Single OW.......drama and games through OC, if their is shared custody.

Both affairs with OC and without OC are devastating. But I don't think you can compare the two in terms of long term fallout and pain. Not even close, IMHO. It has been suggested that it takes 2-5 years to get past an affair. With an OC, I think you are looking at the 4-5 year recovery time frame. An OC may not be an insurmountable obstacle, but it puts that idea to an extreme test.

And at least for me, I have forgiven my H and gotten past the affair. But because of the OC and the extra pain and drama, I will never get "over" it.

JMO.

Well said, Lbelle. Writer, hon, I think your H makes it look much easier than it is for most people. Having an OC makes my life complicated to the max. It tore my H's loyalties in two and kept in the A much longer. It tore my children apart to know he had a child with OW. It leaves me helping to raise the OC with my H along WITH my enemy, the OW. NOBODY wins when there is an OC in the situation.

LBelle: I think there is difference in our perspectives and experiences. In my case, the OM is not part of our lives at all. My H doesn't have to deal with ongoing contact with the OM. OM is not on our OC's birth certificate, does not pay CS, has never seen our OC and has no desire to be a part of her life at all. I think Gack's situation is similar, but I'm not sure.

In our case, my H is the father of our OC in every way except for the DNA. He doesn't have to share our daughter with the OM.

I think when the OC results from an A between a WH and OW, it's more likely that the OW will go after CS and try to keep the WH in her life. I agree that, in the case of a FWH who has an OC with his OW and there is contact or CS, the R is much more complicated. I've already agreed that R is much more complicated with an OC in general. The financial obligations of having to pay CS alone are a constant reminder and a constant drain on the BW and COM. And, if there is contact and the OW must remain a part of the FWH's life, I am sure that adds immensely to the complications and pain that has to be endured by the BS.

An A hurts, period. It is the most painful thing most people will ever have to endure. I think the difference between an A that involves an OC and one that does not occurs primarily in the R phase, and there, I completely agree, the complications of an OC can be immense.

I think, for me, all of this started because NNED kind of glossed over his own A. I found myself wondering what he and his W did to recover their M after his A? I haven't really seen him talk much about his own A or the pain it certainly must have caused his now WW or what he did after his A to rebuild his M. I'm guessing they didn't do much to R their M or they would be much less likely to be here.

""Simple Affair?" That really does minimize the experience.""

It's not who has the worst pain. The BS with an OC or the BS without an OC. Their individual pain can not be compared because everyone reacts differently. However the pain each BS feels is the worse pain that they can feel.

W1, you are comparing apples to oranges.

An affair without an OC and an affair with an OC are not the same.

Simple Affair: W1, you are taking these two words out of context.

Affair with no OC, recovery is a different process. Gifts from the OM can be thrown out, put into a barn fire, etc. The auto the WW and the OM shagged in can be sold and another one bought to replace it. Same for other shag locations, such as the marital bed, sofa, even the house can be sold.

All physical reminders can be vanished.

Affair with an OC, recovery is a different process.

Does the BH and WW throw out the OC?

Toss the OC into a barn fire?

Sell the OC?

The OC is a physical proof that has to be interacted with for about the next 50 years because the BH will have to have this child, and the OC's kids eventually.

As a poster said: your H was a WH, so he is not in a position to claim injury that strong now. He got back what he gave.

To keep his wife and COM it's easier to accept the OC because his hands were dirty first.

Most BH's are not.

Once the WW stops sleeping with the OM and goes NC and comes back home eventually the BH stops triggering.

W1, how would you expect a BH to recover knowing that every night he has to go to bed in the same bed his WW did the OM?

Or how about if the WW wears the sexy bra and panties she bought and wore for the OM?

What BH wants to see physical reminders of the affair?

None.

What is the OC.

Physical reminder.

Is the OC innocent?

Yes.

Can the OC bring happineness?

Yes.

Can the BH come to love the OC?
Yes.

Why do BH accept the OC?

Why doesn't the BH force the WW to give up the OC?

What BH if he loves his WW would force her, a mother, to give up her child? Even though it's an OC, it's still her child.

The price to keep their family intact. The BH respects the bonds between all parents and their kids. So they accept the OM's trophy in their own lives.

TR, I already stated right here that R after an A is different when an OC is involved. You're arguing with me even when I say the exact same thing that you do.

Oh, and my H doesn't think of our daughter as a "trophy." He thinks of her as our daughter, because that's what she is. Legally, he is her father. Emotionally, he is her father. He's the only father she'll ever have.

My H and I actually discussed adoption. I was more than willing to consider it as a viable option in our case. He didn't want to go that route, so in the end, we made a decision together to raise this baby and welcome her into our family. I didn't force anything on him.

Ok, folks time out.

People are putting words in Writer1's mouth and then arguing against those very words based on their own experience not much data.

I think all agree an A is very painful to the BS.

I think it is just as painful to the BS IF the BS was a WS. But, the BS has a better understanding of how it could happen and the perspective of the WS. THus, in many cases leading to a weakened reaction to the current WS. I think most would agree with this.

Then the discussion veared from Write1's case where the OM is completely absent the situation in all possible ways, to one where the OC is created via the WH and where contact with the OP is not only continual by financial as well. Definitely apples and oranges. NOw if people want to really have some fun discuss if it is easier for a BW to accept an OC to rear (assuming OW is completely out of the picture), than a BH. Have fun with that one.

I also think that Writer1 has an additional factor in her favor which she mentioned and that is her H has helped her rear step children. He knows he could get "but you are not my father". They have already developed patterns that minimize this and thus are likely to make rearing the OC more like rearing a stepchild, than an OC as the years go by.

Writer1 is offering her perspective from her experience, and her ongoing marriage. I don't think she needs to be criticized for that. I think she should be encouraged.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

JL,

I also think that Writer1 has an additional factor in her favor which she mentioned and that is her H has helped her rear step children. He knows he could get "but you are not my father". They have already developed patterns that minimize this and thus are likely to make rearing the OC more like rearing a stepchild, than an OC as the years go by.

I guess part of the response to W1, at least for me, is that it is so difficult for another man to comprehend her husbands actions. While they seem commendable to women, men would have a hard time telling their sons to do the same.

Gacks feelings and views on the matter make much more sense from a mans perspective.

NJ

Thanks JL.

I'm off for date night with the H. We're going to a swanky outdoor mall and looking at all the Christmas lights and window shopping for things we could never afford to actually buy.

Have a good night everyone.

writer1~ It is difficult for anyone to understand our husbands. They don't get it, and never will. That's ok, because really- it IS hard to fathom. What drives me crazy though is when they think WE don't get it, and feel the need to explain to US the "real" reasons our husbands chose to raise OC. It's always but this and but that. Don't sweat those folks. Also, re JL's suggestion we find out who's more likely- BH or BW- to be willing to raise an OC if the om/ow is completely out of the picture... I started a thread about this years ago. Not a poll, but I did ask the BWs w/ OC if they'd be willing to raise the child as their own if ow was completely out of the picture. I'll have to dig it up sometime. Hope you had an enjoyable time w/ your H tonight- sounds like great fun!

Humpty Dumpty fell off the wall

All the kings horses

All the kings men

Could not put Humpty back together again



Some marraiges can. Some have more to over come, some less. They should be celebrated.

Not all BW or BH can accept their WS cheated. No one should have to. No one should be faulted for their position to stay or go.

Not all BW or BH can accept an OC. No one should have to. No one should be faulted for their position to want the OC or not want the OC.

It just does not seem right when a WS justifies breaking NC with the OP when their BS has willingly taken them and their OC back.
The attitude of "I" had an affair so what, "I" had an OC so what. I have kept my marriage intact so what "I" am doing must be right. Not so much the words that some WW's write, but the meanings between the lines, the feeling the sentences bring do not sound right.

I am not against anyone recovering their marriage.

Autumn: You're right. I can see why it would be difficult for others to understand my H's actions. It isn't difficult for me to understand, because I know him, and his actions throughout all of this have been completely true to the kind, caring, forgiving man I have always known him to be. I guess that's why I don't find it all that surprising, but then, I was there when he took on the huge responsibility of raising three very young step-children when he was only 25.

I would be interested in seeing that thread. I think I would absolutely be able to raise my H's OC if the OW were not in the picture. It would be much more difficult to have a shared custody situation where the OW was still in the picture and we were paying her CS and having visitation.

TR: I'm not sure who you are referring to about the breaking contact with the OP, or that whole "so what" attitude. Am I missing something? And no one said that a BS had to accept an A or an OC. No one can force anyone to do anything. I don't think I've ever seen any BS on here faulted for walking away. Even Dr. Harley agrees that the BS has every right to walk away if they so choose. But, some choose to stay and R the M, not because they are forced to, but because they want to.