L4, I would hope that this were the bit that you would connect with least. It is the part of the post least applicable to you!

It is that thinking that keeps you accepting your H's low-grade, consistent, persistent humiliation.

You have never learned or believed (as far as I can see) that what you were once is not what you are now. You have never learned to accept that some people will always see you as "bad" but their thinking is wrong, and you must not let it affect you. (I won't spend time now trying to think up a more accurate phrase than "bad".)

We looked at this on my defunct "assumptions" thread. Mrs W came in there, explaining how she understood some people's enduring bitterness at the "wayward", and could excuse their non-belief in the concept of a "former Wayward". She explained that those beliefs upset her for some time after her affair, but she no longer accepts these definitions of herself because she has changed, and she is at peace with herself. She will never deny the sin (her word) and wrongfulness of what she did for a few months, and she will not deny that the various graphic names that can be used for WWs applied to her then, but she knows they do not apply to her now.

I can see from various of your posts in your time here that you do not feel the same way about yourself, and that is a terrible pity, and a handicap for you. That is to say, I don't know that you actually do believe awful things about yourself, but you do care that other people might believe them, and you do not want to prove them right.

You are wrong to feel like that, and even more wrong to base your staying in your marriage on the need not to be seen as a wayward.

I should say things more diplomatically, and not say that you are wrong (because that is only my opnion) but I feel just now that blunt words are the only ones that stand a chance of getting through to you.

(By the way, I don't think that pk meant that she was done with you. I think she meant that she was done trawling through that very upsetting post of yours and telling you what was wrong with the events and your analysis.)

If you are going to post less here so that you can live your real life, then good, but if it is because painful things are being raised here, then I hope you stay around. You need us - and we would miss you!

I'm done with the long posts, SC. I don't have the time to detail every other exchange. H is out of town 'till tomorrow night and my jobs are in hiatus at the moment, so I've had time these last few days to get y'all up to speed -- with way too many words.

I will also post less often so that I can live my real life. I'll certainly come here and continue to read because I agree that I need you, but I also need to limit my time dwelling upon, writing about, and analyzing every interaction I have with H. Nor can I afford to get side-tracked in other, new threads. After H's return tomorrow, I'll check in a couple of times a week. I want to keep pace with some folks here and I want to keep up my MB edumacation.

You're right, SC, that I do care about what other people think, especially if I respect them. It's not the lone driving force that determines what I do, but I'll admit I consider others' thoughts. In the case of my M, it's multiple things that are driving me: my desire to have an intact family for our children, my love for H, my shame from infidelity, my desire to be the person God wants me to be, my need to take responsibility... And yes, wanting other people to not think badly of me. And I know it happens. When Sere typed: I'll admit that being blamed for ruining our M sits as a real truth for me. One that I don't want to accept so I keep trying.

I am feeling pretty strong and good about my plan. I have direction, I have focus, and I have one more day to get it fine-tuned before H gets home. I also have a ton of things to do today. So I gots ta go for now.

Ciao!

Good luck L4 and if you really want to give your R one last big push, then remember what Mark said about going back to Harley basics.

Avoid LB'ers
Identify and meet top EN's
Prioritise UA time

But also remember that you are worthy of being truly loved, chrished and cared for. You're a special person who deserves all that and more so please do not settle for less. Do not tolerate any abuse.

I'm not too sure that boundaries are really a trigger for your H, but even if they are, they are vital to you R so don't be afraid of asserting yourself and what you will and won't put up with.

Don't forget us L4 and good luck with your plan.

Hi L4,

I'm glad you have a plan, and I'm glad that you have a timeline. I think that a timeline can really make hard work more bearable.


I wanted to say one thing for your to tuck in you thinking while you execute you plan. This is going to sound harsh but I really just mean it as something to think about for yourself. In your relationship you cheated on your H, withheld that from him as you got married, then threatened to D him if he did not do serious work to change, then cheated again, then told him all about it. I would also assume that during the threats of D you also said things you wish you could take back.

All of that is in the past, all of it is very painful for the spouse and all of it was your doing. You did not make your H damaged to begin with but you knew about that during these actions. The history would be very difficult for even the healthiest of people to deal with, it is possible that it is just more than he can ever handle. Unfortunately, because it is emotional damage it isn't like you can see that you crippled someone and they will never walk again.

I'm worried that you have been so focused on the fixing that you have not had time to grieve for what you did. I know a little about this because I have been speaking with my IC about my own grief over the damage I did to my children because of how I handled the my xWW's A and her overall selfishness. It is done and I am sorry about it but I still need to really grieve for the loss.

I'm wondering if your H could also use some grief counseling, in a very real sense he has lost his entire married life.

I hope your new plan gets you to a place where you are happy again. I hope the same for your H and children as well.

Best

Gabe

This might be how H feels, although I have my disagreements about the "lost his whole married life" bit.

Mr L4 could look at the marriage he did have. What was that like for him? We don't know, but if there was good in it then he need not grieve everything it gave him.

I think he had every right to be angry about any and all of the things you say, but what he does not have the right to do is humiliate his wife. He can leave her, he can tell the world what kind of woman she is, but allowing her to stay and enjoying watching her try so hard while he is cruel is inhumane. If he has no love for her, he should not use the fact that she wants badly to right her wrongs to use her for sex when he wants it, companionable times when he wants them and anger when he wants that.

This does not look like a man who is grieving to me, nor one who needs sympathetic emotional care. He looks like a man who will not look at what his children could gain from a genuine attempt at recovery (never mind what he himself could gain. I can see he does not believe in L4 any more).

I think that the "look what you did; you killed him" line that has been fed here to L4 for over a year has encouraged her to put up with abuse, and it, and the abuse, should stop. If Mr L4 carries on with what L4 has described, she should stop showing her children that this is acceptable and leave him. Let him call her what he will. She can tell the children that, when she woke up from her affair and withdrawal, when she read and learned here, she wanted a loving romantic marriage for herself, her H and the children, and he would not attempt that. If she is the fantastic mother that her own H says she is, her children will believe that she worked hard at this and could not live with any more humiliation. They will not hate her for leaving an abusive situation with a man whom they can see is angry and harsh to her, often, and in front of them.

Our childhoods need not define us and his is not an excuse for messing up that of his children, when he has a repentant wife trying so hard to give all of them the best.

Rant not over. I can keep this up for hours.

L4,

Do try to make this work, especially for your kids. You have my utmost admiration for putting their needs above your own. I have been doing this in my marriage, and I feel very happy that I do so. Emotionally secure kids with a loving father in their home is probably my top EN, and I am fulfilled by having that need met.

However, about this list:

You put in superb efforts for most of it but you stink at the boundaries bit. I suspect that you will work on the bits that involve doing service for others - H and kids - and will feel too guilty to do that bit that protects you. Please work much harder in this area. D minus so far.

SugarCane,

I'm not trying to tell L4 to just keep taking it at all. I'm telling her to take a moment and grieve what she has lost.

And Please, if he H feels that his whole marriage is lost, then he feels that way and needs to grieve for that. Period. He is clearly very damaged by many things. We are both BS here so I feel okay doling out a 2x4 to you for this. You are taking the word of a FWW on what her BS should be behaving. You don't know if this is the only thing he is capable of doing given the situation.


I've long been a supporter of L4's right to leave the M. Sure she is going to take the lions share of the blame for the failure, especially since in later discussions all of the day to day stuff he does will seem like justifications.
Ok, so what, really then take the blame and make a better situation. If L4 is suffering all of this to avoid blame then that is a tragedy.

I've thought for a long time that Mr L4 cannot recover from this situation. I know it is popular on this forum to see him as refusing to get with the program but I see this as more than he can handle. That is why I used the physical analogy. If I am right then all L4 can do is make the best life she can for herself and the children. There are no guarantees in life. She may come out as the hero, maybe not. Maybe Mr L4 will turn it all around and then it will look like she cheated on a great guy. Maybe one of the children will have a spouse cheat on them and then they will condemn her. All of that does not matter she just needs to do what is best for them (and her ) now.

I have seen L4 grieve deeply for what she has lost. However, I don't know how doing that even more is supposed to help her. How does "grieving for what she has lost" help her build a new marriage? How does it help her put up boundaries against her H's abuse?

"Grieving for what she has lost could be another way of telling her to feel even worse than she does now for what she did. It sounds like a way of saying "you will never know the enormity of what you did, and whatever you feel your H feels worse, so go and feel worse some more".

I don't understand the highlighted sentence - I think it contains a typo. I think it is saying that I am taking the word of a FWW on what her H is doing - suggesting that L4 is not relating these interactions truthfully.

It is true that she might not be, but I have to take what is written here. If the above interactions have been accurately reported then they are cruel.

Indeed I don't know "if this is the only thing he is capable of doing given the situation" (again, I don't really understand this point) but I cannot see how his being capable of anything else is material. According to L4's account, he has actually done the above; never mind his capabilities. That behaviour is cruel.

As for the rest of your post,

I don't really understand what points of mine you are arguing against, or if in fact you are agreeing.

Her turning out to be the hero or not is immaterial. That was not a point that I raised. I was trying to say that, having worked hard at this, and having offered, and having shown herself dedicated to giving, a loving, secure future for all of them, if that is rejected then her children will not hate her for having to leave because of his abuse. Heroes do not come into it.

SugarCane,

Maybe I'm not saying this well. I agree that her H is behaving cruelly. It is very possible that he is not capable of behaving in any other way given what he has suffered in life. L4 can be the judge of that.

I do not believe she has gone through the grieving process to see the damage and then clearly plan a way forward. You seem to think otherwise. It took me over 10 years (and IC) to work my way through that.

As to moving on, I was agreeing with you. If she thinks he can't get better then move on. It does seem like you are offering her the carrot that her children will then see how she tried, .... I'm saying that part does not matter.

Life can make many turns and she could end up looking like the villain, but she will know for herself that she did what was best. The part where you say her children will see her caring etc is what I saw as a promise that they will see her as the hero and not the villain. They may never see that but she will know it.


As an aside you said

This is precisely why I used a physical analogy. If he is incapable of recovering from this, I do see it as material. I doubt you would give the same advice if the damage were physically visible. That being said, whats done is done and she owes the best future she can give to the children.

I just realized why I'm feeling a little PO'ed by your post. I somehow got the impression that you were saying "Well she tried the MB program so, now if he leaves that's his problem". You are a BS like me so maybe that interpretation is unfair. I think the BS has an absolute right to leave as a result of the A for a very very long time after D-Day. Each case is different but given what L4 has relayed to us I think he has about 10 years before I would think he was delaying just to delay, or be cruel, or controlling...

I agree, 6, very strongly. I have been terribly bad at recovering myself and I would find it offensive for anyone to tell a BS "you have had enough time. Get over it already!"

I am not urging him to recover, but saying his treatment of L4 is unacceptable. I have been in tremendous pain but I cannot condone cruelty to another. Lashing out is understandable - and I did it for a long time. I had many false recoveries over 3 years, so real recovery has been a nightmare for me. Breaking down is understandable. Triggering and crying are too. Uncontrolled grief and pain and anger at the WS's selfishness, stupidity, recklessness...why wouldn't I understand and sympathy and just know? Of course I do; I know.

If someone as incompletely recovered as I, with many false recoveries to make things worse, and a not very visibly remorseful H, and no MB or other counselling to smack him for me, and aged 50 now with no chance of more children with someone who really loves me (pity party; indulge me for just a minute) and who sometimes looks back and sees my whole marriage as a giant error of judgement on my part, who regrets living with H and being pregnant when married and sees that I never had wholehearted commitment to marriage from him to begin with....

(breathe, Sugar)

...if someone like me with all my issues can look at what L4 describes and say "this is unkind, and he is enjoying his revenge",

then it is not because I am a complacent BS who had it lucky and does not know how hard reconciliation can be,

but because there is something other than hurt and grief going on here. Such controlled, sustained belittling? Calm insults while having sex (but going through with the sex)?

I have been in tears while having sex. I have pushed him off me while having sex, because I have been assailed by the mental images. I have been unable to have sex for long periods. I have lain in the dark feeling destroyed and used after he is satisfied and has had his EN met. I know what intense grief and rage feel like.

Perhaps Mr L4's outward display seems cruel, but is not motivated by cruelty. Perhaps L4 can and should develop an understanding of his style and not allow her LB to be eroded by it.

I do see your point. L4 should perhaps think carefully about all our perspectives.

L4, just so you know what a benefit my writing to you has been,

(you might intend not writing any more monster posts, but you sure as heck are going to have to read them),

I am working through my own final issues with dishing out punishment and revenge to my H, as I write to you. A BS's need to dish those out is so understandable, and is not a stage that can be bypassed or shortened for some of us (like me). But it is not good for us, and not good for the marriage, and not good for the children for whom the marital recovery is being tried.

I came to see that some time ago, but still hung on to traces of doing it. I think posting to you and tearing a strip off your H has helped me look at myself once again. I feel as if the last period of wanting revenge has passed for me, finally. (Time will tell. I'm very stubborn.)

If your H won't look at himself ever, and ask what he gains from revenge and what he stands to lose from it, he will be a loser in some way. I just don't feel that you should accept his refusal to self-reflect for ever.

Sugar,

Maybe the difference is reactions is a male versus female thing. I would find a WH who was trying to recover and his BW would not have sex for "long periods of time" to be cruel. I would hope I could empathize with her but I might fail to do that.

We are all different. I just buried everything until it all exploded 10 years later, not really recommended either.

I tend to always pull for the children in these situations, adults be damned. I know it is a particular prejudice of mine and I can get out of hand with it. I usually only participate in threads where children are involved.

Well, I never said that, and I've never done that.

I did point out the many false recoveries I have had over 3 years, and I said that they made real recovery difficult. However, I'm sorry that you see my sexual problems during this time as cruel. I'm sure my H did too! Never mind. That was then, and things are different now.

SugarCane,

Seems we have a problem communicating.

You said

I thought you meant months, maybe long periods is days?

I was trying to get the general gist of something that is difficult for a BW to do during recovery that a WH would find hard to deal with and that many men would see as cruel. If you want a very close parallel (although I'm not trying to attack you at all here) You mentioned the harsh comments during sex from Mr L4. while you have apparently rejected your WH mid-sex or pretty close to that both of those seem pretty cruel to me. However, any of this cruelty is in a context of extreme emotional pain and may not represent the real person. The sex part is difficult though, most men really want it, have it as their primary emotional need, oh and if we get to distracted nothing is going to work.

Obviously neither of us knows the L4's that well and 13 months isn't that long. I really hope they can find a way through this. And for the record I don't believe that L4 needs to punish herself. What she did was very bad and I believe she is genuinely sorry, but somethings can't be fixed so we have to do the best we can.

Well, I'm not sure either of us has a problem putting words on the screen, but a few times now you have "understood" something that I did not write.

I did not say months and yet you thought I meant months.

Earlier, you turned something I said into a point I did not make, about heroes, and you also said this:

I did not say that either, but you "somehow got that impression", although you acknowledge that it might be unfair.

I understand and accept that you, and many men, would see this as cruel.

I would see a very close parallel between my pushing my H off me during sex because of mental images, and a BH being unable to complete the sexual act because of the same kind of images. I hear of this happening from time to time for BHs on this forum.

Hi SugarCane,

I'm still wondering what "long periods of time" means? Trying to get better at understanding you.

The Hero misunderstanding came from this


I'm still not quite sure what you meant by that that was so different from my hero interpretation.
I don't see the can't get it up as the same as pushing him off. I see the pushing off as more similar to Mr. L4 because he actively did something mean during sex. I want to assure you being unable to get an erection because of images of spouse cheating on you is not under your control. So you felt angry and pushed him off, Mr L4 says nasty things when he is angry ( alot apparently).

BTW, If I read your WH complaining about this I would probably tell him that you needed time to recover and that he did the damage.

It doesn't really matter what "long periods" meant for me, for this discussion. I did not say months and you wrote "months".

I said "her children will believe she worked hard at this" and "they will not hate her". I did not say, or intend to convey "hero". The breakdown would have stemmed from her adultery; without it, the children might have grown up in an intact home. I could not conceive of having to end the marriage because of one's own adultery as heroic. I was trying to convey something more along the lines that it would be seen as a terrible injustice that L4 perpetrated, that she tried to put right and could not. "She worked hard at this" = "she tried her best and could not repair the damage", not "she is a hero".

I think we should stop our discussion now, although I'll be happy for you to have the last word. I accept your point of view and I think L4 will probably want to weigh all views carefully - or put them in the bin and get back to working on her marriage! I think we have said enough to each other about our respective interpretations.

L4,
Haven't posted to your thread in a long time. Here's my observation. I feel like your BS AO are surface arguements meaning you're not getting to the depth of where the AO are coming from. Reading about your recent exchanges makes me think when your BS gets defense - don't get caught up in his tail spin - stop yourself (he gets defensive, you get defensive and it escalates). Stop, let your defenses down and simply ask him "what's really going on here, what's really bothering you." If he continues with the defensiveness, ask "why do you intentionally want to get me angry?" One of two things will happen, he will get more angry because you're handling the situation in a way he's not accustomed to or he will stop and have to think how to respond and may actually change his disposition.

I felt sad reading your post because it made me visualize your child in the scene outside with the rakes. Imagine when your child is grown and married and handles conflict with the spouse the way you and your BS are currently modeling behavior? You can only control you and once you change your behavior your BS will have to change his behavior.

Don't know if you had a chance to read Harley's article on negotiating. I think you and BS may benefit from practicing what Harley writes. Below is the link.

Four Guidelines for Successful Negotiation

That's my two cents.

BTW - great advice from everyone else and Mark's thread is a must read for everyone as Pepper noted in a thread dedicated to it.

Gg

SugarCane,

Ok I'll let you off but if I had you in court I'd make you give a length of time. I try to be less literal here but some people like literal. I'll remember to quote you should we interact again, should make things smoother. I'll agree you are right on the months. I would like to amend my statement to say "long periods of time" without SF is cruel.

OK I get the short version. The longer version seemed to cast her H as the bad guy because of this section, but I see your point now.

Even as I read this again it really seems to me to make her H the villain, but I know that is not what you meant now.



L4,

I was hoping that the discussion could give you insight from a BH, that his bad behavior could be coming from anger that he does not know how to express. I also wanted to say to you that D is not the end of the world. I'm D, I have a mega posting coming over in the D forum about recent developments between me and GF. If you decide D, I will still be an L4 supporter and offer any help I can.

Gabe

Oy L4. I want to slap and hug Mr. L4 and then slap and hug him some more. I still feel pulled in two directions when I read your story since I see Mr. L4 being stuck and even cruel at times but I know how much he is hurting too.

The only advice I really have right now is to keep on with the self improvement and shore up your boundaries. gg hit on something about how H will have to take a look at himself...well hold the mirror L4. Mr. L4 may be a BS in pain but that doesn't give him license to continue to add to the destruction. If H is flying off the handle yelling at the children for little things like popcorn, then you need to stand up and protect those kiddos. But I will say look at how you should address it so that H has to look at himself. The delivery is crucial.

In situations like that I would not shoot off a zinger as that will only make him more defensive. Bite your tongue and walk away if you feel your own anger starting to boil over. You want to make him think and see how destructive his behavior is. There were plenty of times I was short with my children and then realized I was inflicting more damage and then I'd get angry with H for creating the situation that put me on the edge. It can be a vicious cycle and H needs to see how he is part of it. If Mr. L4 had these behaviors pre-A, I'm sure they are worse now.

The next time H has an AO, I would let him cool off before saying too much and gather my thoughts. Hold up the mirror and put the questions to him. Using the popcorn incident as an example, don't try to explain a possible misunderstanding or DD lying. Ask him something like, "I know you are angry with me, but do you think yelling at DD over popcorn is going to help anything? I know I have deeply hurt you and I'm sorry for that but neither one of us should hurt our children with anger." He may get pissed. If he does, just leave it alone. H may stew in anger but he will have to think on the words and I will bet that deep down he knows there is truth to them. Children need discipline but going off over popcorn to the point of making a 6 yr old cry is over the top. If the exchange goes any further, keep the discussion tight and focused on how the children are affected.

The biggest problem I see with you L4 is that you try to overexplain sometimes. You will never win that battle when H is caught up in his anger. I'm not saying hold your tongue, but don't get sucked into going on and on. What you do say, has to be concise and something he can think on. There should come a time when you can have more in depth discussions but right now H can't hear it because he's too busy being angry.


I think this is a good response but I'd stay away from words like "boundary." H is not onboard with MB and use of the term probably sounds psychobabblish to him; it would to me anyways.

Hugs to you.