Hey L4!

Just wanted to stop by and let you know I'm thinking of you.

You know, there was a time where I "welcomed" my BH saying cruel things to me. Sick, I know, but that was where my mind was at the time. It didn't happen very often, him saying cruel things...I called them drive-bys because they came out of nowhere and hurt like heck...but when it did, not only did the words bring me to my knees, but they also reinforced something inside of me. I was getting a payoff.

What was the payoff? Two things...

1)My BH only wanted to talk about our situation in any context 3 or 4 times, and 2 of those times were through an email. He didn't want to talk about what happened. He didn't want to talk about where I was at in healing or where he was at in healing. He did not want to hear about any of it at all. And I so desperately wanted to talk about it, him, me. So when he made a cruel comment, it somehow "met" my need to talk. Not a clear picture, but at least I was getting some kind of feed back. Cruel comments were better than no comments at all.

2)And I'm thinking you can relate here...I welcomed the punishment. His cruel comments hurt me and I felt I deserved the punishment. It reinforced how awful I felt about myself. It reinforced my thoughts that I was a horrible, horrible person. To this day, I still struggle feeling that way about myself. Yes, I finally spoke up and asked my BH to stop making those comments because they did not help our R in anyway at that point, we were a couple years into R, but it took me awhile to do that because of how low I felt about me.

I know the comments hurt, but are you getting some type of payoff from them too? Think about that.

t/j...



I do not feel this statement is completely accurate. Yes, there are times where a wife pushing her husband off during sex is done out of pure meaness. There are also times when it is pure emotional overload and the act becomes unbearable. I can imagine the images of your spouse cheating on you while having SF could trigger an emotional response in a woman, much like ED for a man, that causes her body to react and push her into protection mode....stop...get away. And it has nothing to do with being cruel and everything to do with what is going on in her head and how her body is reacting to that at that time, much like ED for a man. It truly is not an "I don't want to" reaction, it is an "I can't" reaction.

Yeah! That's what I meant! What she said!

Bless you for helping with this explanation, rubydoo. I did the rejecting perhaps 3 or 4 times, and only during the final period of false recovery (the final 14 months or so), when I felt unsafe and was being lied to. That was also the period during which I sometimes could not allow H to get close to me to have sex. I knew instinctively that an enthusiastic sex partner was a big EN for him, however, and my desire to win him back meant that our non-SF periods lasted only several days - perhaps two weeks at most. I felt it was too dangerous for my marriage to deny him this EN when he already had his own personal ho waiting in the wings, and I also wanted to claim him back and leave my marker on him - as Neak said recently, I wanted to to pee on him to mark him as mine! So not participating in sex was never a deliberate strategy; it was a temporary reaction to knowing I was unsafe and that I was being used.

I had no proof of my H's continuing affair during this time, except that I had had previous D Days and false recoveries. I did not want to hurt my children by walking out of our home without proof, and of course, my H was lying to me. He was travelling for work to Belgium, where his skank lives, and kept giving me his word that he was not seeing her any more. Without any knowledge of MarriageBuilders I did not know that he should leave his job for NC to take place.

H actually volunteered to stop travelling one day 3.5 years into the affair, after about 4 D Days, when I almost left our home. However, it took me 6 more months after his travelling ceased to find these forums and learn that I needed to expose to OWH (whose name, home and work address and home phone number I had had for nearly two years). I exposed, and the lingering EA fell apart among recriminations from the "lovers" about who had lied about their "horrible marriage" the most.

L4, I promise not to threadjack any more! This all started because I was trying to say that I know how your H feels as a BS.

Hi Ruby,

I think you made my point better than I was able to.


Emphasis added be me. The point is that Mr L4 could be spending alot of time operating near his emotional limit. So when he passes it he literally cannot control it. Just as the woman cruelly pushing the H away cannot control that.

Maybe Mr L4 will never get to the place where he can control himself, but I hope not. That is why L4 has to evaluate this for herself and the children and decide what to do. I have said this for months, that L4 is in a better place to make the determination.

L4,

I really think this is your burden to decide. I feel for you, I was in a similar situation with a very selfish and childish FWW. So I had to decide and it was difficult.

6...



First of all, a woman doing this does not automatically mean she is doing it to be cruel...cruelly pushing her H away. It has nothing to do with being cruel to H. She can not continue. Her body and mind will not let her. She would start to feel forced, sick, almost as if being raped. Her mind and body are going to react to protect her from feeling this.

I would imagine being a man, you would not know what that feels like for a woman...just as me being a woman would not know what ED feels like for a man. But I do know that both have nothing to do with being cruel and everything to do with what is in your mind and how your body reacts to it.

Yes, it is something that would need to worked out, dealt with in a healthy way, just as ED has to be.

Ruby,

It is cruel from the perspective of the H. Let's try to let both genders have feelings that are recognized as valid. The point is that it is not under her control, nor did she plan it. Just as I doubt Mr L4 plans his outbursts, he may not be able to control them, yet you and others seem happy to label those as cruel. Yes he should work on it.

Somehow I cannot make my point so here it is. Mr, L4 does things that are cruel from the perspective of L4 and many others. That does not mean he does them to be cruel. Do not dismiss the intense emotional damage he has recently suffered. He probably even regrets them later.


Men can understand the idea of sexual violation, it is completely ridiculous to suggest otherwise. Thousands of men are raped every year. I'm not sure if you can understand emotional based ED. I don't have any other parts that are not under my direct control, maybe something like a woman being unable to orgasm?

It's not cruel to push a H away, if there is some explanation , afterwards. Heck a WH would have to be a complete [censored] not to expect his BW to have times when sex sucks for her due to his betrayal. It is just one of the costs both parties bear as the result of cheating(despite it being unfair for the BS to have to bear it).
Same with ED. If the BH has troubles or now feels insecure and that interferes, the WW should know that she caused this and has no standing to get upset(except at herself).
I see no cruelty , other than that already injuected inot the relationship by the WS.
L4 has been going through this for about a year or so, the uphill battle.
At some point, either her H or she will figure out if things can be repaired enough so as to make for a satisfactory marriage.
If they have to part ways, L4 has a huge piece of the responsibility as she cheated multiple times. I do not think her H is as responsible, as he had a tough childhood, which she knew about when she decided to cheat on him, and he may not be wired for getting over this. Most folks are not wired to get over this, IMO. Most of my male friends say they would not tolerate a one time episode. They'd be pissed and insecure forever.

Just as you seem happy to label a wife pushing her husband away as cruel. What's the difference?

6...we will just have to agree to disagree.

Ruby,

Both are cruel and both are an emotional response to a severe trauma. I have never said the remarks are not cruel, I'm interested in how I gave you that impression. (Can always get better at communicating)

Why is one excusable and not the other? I never said the BH should set a boundary around the SF, but many have suggested that L4 set a boundary with the cruel remarks.

Hi Zelmo,

I'm wondering how another guy sees Mr L4's remarks. I really really think he cannot recover from this. I see the remarks as him boiling over. Would you see L4 as a complete [censored] to not expect that to happen sometimes.

I did not suggest men can not understand the idea of sexual violation. Here is my quote...


Notice the word I used was "feels" and that your term of "sexual violation" is taken out of context.


I suppose from this...


I read this as if you did not include yourself in "our" group since you didn't include yourself in that aligation.

Hi Ruby,

I see how you misunderstood me. I'm happy to label both as cruel, but also understandable reactions.

I wanted to help you see one thing I misunderstood.

You said

I read this to mean that a man can not understand the feelings of being raped, it still reads that way to me.

I too really really think that he cannot recover from this.

I am urging L4 to take that possibility into account while she is trying to fill his LB by meeting his ENs. In my view, if she sets her mind to do "whatever it takes for as long as it takes" with someone who cannot recover, she will bleed herself dry.

But we weren't talking about raped. We were talking about how a woman can feel, how her body and mind can react, during SF under these circumstances. You seemed to grab onto that one word and then take it out of context.

As to our original topic, you may be able to understand it, but you are not able to feel it, to live it. Just like you can understand child birth, but you aren't able to feel it,to live it...and there is a world of difference between understanding it and actually feeling it.

I think you and I are having the same difficulties you and sugarcane were having a couple of pages back.

I don't think that. It's only been a year which is a drop in the bucket in the big picture. Considering Mr. L4 is not onboard with MB on anything else he may not know how to help himself and is too stubborn to ask/admit he needs/wants help. I also think L4 is missing the mark in some areas as well (not for lack of trying) but she also can't run herself into the ground forever either.

Ruby,

I think it is a slightly different problem. I reacted to the word rape, because you used a very very very serious criminal assault to describe the woman's reaction. So that word stood out to me. Nothing either of these BS's have done even comes close to rape. I've dealt with both male and female rape survivors and I can tell you that the only thing that comes close to that emotional trauma is to have your spouse commit adultery.

I guess certain words can be triggers for all of us. Just like you latched on to the word cruel, when I was not intending it as an indictment of the BW at all.

Hi SugarCane,

So how can we on this forum support L4 in making this assessment. I have struggled with that. She is the one we can speak with so we can help her. I would really like to see her children have a happy home. Mom doing penance and Dad a basket case is not a happy home.

As someone in a similar place as L4.
My H was making comments during SF about my ONS and rape...he would suddenly start walking me through what happened that night step by step...while we were having sex. I did draw a boundary here. I made it very clear I want him...i want to make love to him. I let men devalue me and treat me poorly on that night and part of never cheating again is NEVER letting myself be treated that way. I would kiss him - tell him I wanted him but I couldnt be treated like this. And I would leave the room. Eventually he stopped.

I find by removing myself from his anger and unhappiness - doing something with the children that is happy - makes him want to be with us...participate...he stops his behavior. Of course i have to do this over and over again - nightly almost. But with time it works.

You have to be insane to want to be angry and hurt and alone for an extended period of time. He gets something from this behavior - my h does too...if you remove his reward (i.e. the penance reaction)...then it is no longer rewarding. If you replace your reaction with something else more appealing - you and the kids laughing and playing a video game - eventually that is the light in his darkness.

I dont know if this makes sense - heck I got the same issues L4 does...and I am not exactly fixing them yet. I just keep coming back to 1 Peter 3:8 - 22

8Finally, all of you, live in harmony with one another; be sympathetic, love as brothers, be compassionate and humble. 9Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult, but with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing. 10For,
"Whoever would love life
and see good days
must keep his tongue from evil
and his lips from deceitful speech.
11He must turn from evil and do good;
he must seek peace and pursue it.
12For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous
and his ears are attentive to their prayer,
but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil."[a]
13Who is going to harm you if you are eager to do good? 14But even if you should suffer for what is right, you are blessed. "Do not fear what they fear[b]; do not be frightened."[c] 15But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, 16keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander. 17It is better, if it is God's will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil. 18For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19through whom[d] also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also�not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge[e] of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand�with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

Hi Sis, (I sort of recognize your story. Is that a new name?)

The real question I find so troubling and I wish Mr L4 would come here for help is can he live with this in his M or not. Coming here helped me decide that not was the answer for me.

Yes 6 - I am HW...i felt humbled wife didnt fit how I felt - so in the big outage - when I reregistered - i choose a different name.

I thought my H didnt want to save marraige cause he was acting this way...i kept begging him to give me a chance...finally one night in bed he looks at me and asks

BH-Where are you
WW - at home
BH - no where are you
WW - In bed
BH - with who
WW - Umm you?
BH- right ...i am here, you are here..i didnt throw you out, or leave and neither did you. So stop asking me to give you a chance...if I wasnt giving us a chance I would be gone!
WW - okay...i love you ...good night


I havent asked him to give us a chance since. Some days he says he is only here cause of the kids and in 15 years he is gone.

I say - GREAT! that gives me 15 years with you!

The deal for me is - I try to not make it about me and him...The old mother theresa poem expresses it best...I love because I should - not because I am getting anything in return.

People are often unreasonable, illogical, and self-centered; Forgive them anyway. If you are kind, People may accuse you of selfish, ulterior motives; Be kind anyway. If you are successful, you will win some false friends and some true enemies; Succeed anyway. If you are honest and frank, People may cheat you; Be honest and frank anyway. What you spend years building, someone could destroy overnight; Build anyway. If you find serenity and happiness, They may be jealous; Be happy anyway. The good you do today, people will often forget tomorrow; Do good anyway. Give the world the best you have, and it may never be enough; Give the world the best you've got anyway. You see, in the final analysis, it is between you and God; It was never between you and them anyway.

You know, 6, there is something really weird that happens to a lot of BSs that does not seem to make sense , on the surface.
For example, the obsessive need to revisit things that bring them pain, the picking the scab deal.
I've thought about this a fair amount, initially thinking that I was really F'd up for continuing to do this while some other folks were much more adept at putting it behind them.
But, I've seen enough of this phenoemna here and on various boards to now realize that it is not uncommon.
So, what purpose does it serve? I think, clearly, there is some type of reward one gets from it. Perhaps focusing on the betrayal and pain prevents a BS like myself from looking at parts of me that I don't like.

I think something similar is going on with L4's husband. He revisits his pain for some reason and it provides some type of comfort, in a weird way. I do think he can control the expression of his pain, but it is much more difficult to actually stop feeling it , inside.

I think it is possible that he can heal and the marriage can recover. He has not been violent. He has remained in the marriage. He has not had a revenge affair. He has maintained his employment and been a responsible parent. All these are very difficult things to do after having been so traumatized.
This demonstrates a lot of strength and committment,IMO.
They are only a year or so into this. I know Harley himself says 2-5 years for a recovery. Folks seem to forget that, sometimes.
Perhaps H's rate of recovery is not the same as some of the BSs here. I know, for me, in the early stages, things are always very slow. But, I catch up by the end. This was true for me in almost every endeavor at which I, eventually, reached a level of relative excelence, in law school, in basketball, and in golf.
So, I say it is too early to know. He does seem to be an exceptional guy, what with his abandonment issues from childhood and hsi continued efforts to get past this.
he does not sound like a guy that trusts easily, and his backkground makes that understandable.
I just have a feeling that this guy is tough and a fighter. A lot of his fight is with himself and those are tough battles.