I think people have been trying to help her make that assessment. There have been lots of points of view expressed here, including your and mine, and L4 has been considering them.

Her latest post suggested that she will continue to meet ENs etc for now, because she wants to do the best for her children, and she has enough love for her H to want to make a good marriage with him. That is her assessment for now. I posted my support for that in my reply to her.

Well, b_r, if you are going to have the NERVE to disagree with me young lady,

During my false recoveries that lasted 3+ years (so I had more than a year post D Day; which D Day? I have to ask),

I had not found MB or any other kind of help. I was in the same position as Mr L4 in the MB respect, but with the additional problem of an H who was not working as L4 has been.

I raged and expressed anger and did other things, described at length already on poor L4's thread. (This is not a threadjack, honestly L4. It is all relevant. Trust me.)

However, I also talked to H about our marriage and the affair, and how I felt, and what I thought our future could be. I said that I wanted to try and repair our marriage and it was hard, but I wanted to work things out. I told H that I loved him many times, because that was true. He said he loved me too; this was not one-sided. We would fight about the fact that there was still contact (I did not know that it was full-scale sexual contact). He would say that the contact meant nothing and they were just friends, and I would say "how do I know that for sure?" and cry and rage because, despite his being given chances by me, he would not fight for our marriage and get completely rid of OW. He was not so scared of losing me that he dropped OW immediately. He kept her in the picture. How dared he? I was aghast by the fact that he would say "she is finding it difficult to break the whole thing off, so I am talking to her sometimes. Not that often. But I can't just tell her to F off." How dared he! What about our future, and the kids'? Didn't my grief matter more than hers?

I know from what he said that that he knew that I loved him and wanted us to stay together, even though getting over the betrayals was hard. He understood why I got angry and cried, or could not speak to him for a day. He knew that I was not eating or sleeping very well, because I was distraught at the loss of our marriage. He wanted me to believe that it was not lost, that he would never leave, and he wanted me to believe that there was no affair any longer, so that he could carry it on it secret. But through all my anger, and hurt, and crying and rage, and hysterical bonding, he knew that I was not done with the marriage. That is what he took advantage of; the knowledge that I still wanted him.

From what I read here, other BSs who were not through with the marriage did the kinds of things I did then. They withdrew at times, fought, raged and cried, but at some time they also showed that they were giving the WS a chance. Even if they would not be active themselves they showed that they were giving and taking a chance.

MelodyLane, for example; I think she has said that she lost all respect for her H and could not work on recovery at first, but she reluctantly agreed to give him a chance. They went to a MC, who turned them onto MB, and H learned to work on Mel's LB. Slowly she had to admit it was filling up. Pep says the same thing. She gave H a chance, and against her reluctance her LB filled. Most BSs who stay do so very unhappily, but if they see the WS working hard they reciprocate, and soften.

Mr L4 says, in cold, calm conversations, not when he is heated or obviously upset, that he does not love L4 and he is not trying in the marriage. He never says anything else. He does not say later that he regrets his "outbursts", as 6years suggests that he probably does. His statements (not so much the ones during sex; the others) do not come across as outbursts, and he never shows that he is sorry for them. They come across as the honest expression of his considered thoughts.

He seems different to me because of that persistent, calm, thought-out rejection of L4.

Ok Sugar I'm going to agree with you again, let's not make a habit of this. ;-)

I too find the cold and considered statements the most indicative. I know for me (I am a divorced BH) as my feelings got colder and more analytical all of the love was gone and I built a big wall of defenses. By the time I came here I really did not care enough to save the M and I was completely focused on the children. There was still a bit of drama but mostly around my heart breaking over the pain I caused the children.

6...Your latest post still reads to me as you twisting my words and taking them out of context to make your point. That must work well for you in the court room.

Funny how the person who said she pushed her H away during SF agreed with my description of how she felt at the time. Guess she doesn't know what she is talking about either.

I'm done t/j L4's post...and tired of beating my head against the wall.

Sorry L4 for the t/j.

Honestly this is for L4 but I also wanted to make an attempt to bridge the gap with Ruby. I'm really hear to represent the feelings of the BH, they count you know. I hope I did not give the impression that I was saying how a woman feels, I was trying to say how the man feels. I was denied my number one emotional need for months while my XWW was cheating on me, and then for months after during her withdrawal. Nothing Mr L4 has done to L4 even begins to touch that pain.

Here is what I said (emphasis added maybe I should have done that in the first place.


I intended this as an explanation of what the word Rape triggered in my own emotions, that then made it difficult for me to get the more subtle point that Ruby was making. Then I attempted to find some common emotional ground around being a BS to build from. I did not realize that Ruby was a FWW and not a FBW. So I accidentally rubbed some salt on the wound.

Now I see that I am a divorced, single parent, former betrayed male person. Ruby is a married, two parent home, former wayward female person. Those two perspectives would be difficult to reconcile in person, much less on a discussion forum.

Ok for you L4, Why do I post to your thread (and cause these irritating TJ's etc)

1) I benefited from MB forum support and I think it is only right for me to try to help where I can.

2) I'm not an expert on MB so the best I have to offer is the perspective of a BH, who can be relatively polite and avoid name calling and take lumps and keep coming back.

3) I believe that you are genuinely sorry and that you are doing your best to make a good life for your children

4) I think that if you decide divorce is the best option you would benefit from emotional support on this forum, I know that I did. And I will be here with support for you.

Hi L4,
just stopping by to say I love you and understand the need to step away from MB at times. I'll be here for you when you get back

I wonder if L4's husband has PTSD as the result of the cheating.

Thanks, Lil. I know that.

The discussion among SC, 6YL, and Ruby (nice to see you, Ruby!), is interesting. Don't worry about the T/Js folks. I learn from them as much as anybody. Mi casa es tu casa. You three have provided me with such strong, well-written advice during my journey here so I say go for it. I value what each of you have to say on probably anything.

A lump in the throat, 6YL... Thank you.

H is with DS8 at a birthday party. DD6 is at a friend's house. The four of us will meet up again at 4:00 for our church's Christmas sing-along. It's one of my favorite events that our church does during the year. We invite anyone and everyone, open the church, and sing Christmas carols with our one-in-a-million music director accompanying the festivities. It rocks.

I've just finished with the Christmas decorations. The kids are always very anxious to get the stuff up and yesterday their enthusiasm lasted for all of about 15 minutes. I don't mind finishing up, though. I put on the music, string the lights, wrap the framed pictures on the walls (they look like presents hanging from the walls), and light candles. It's nice. The four of us will do the tree tonight.

I had a problem expressing my feelings two days ago about a SD that H did. It wasn't a severe or degrading SD. But it was something he said I needed to do (a change in how we've done things for over 13 years) and it stuck with me. Instead of letting it go (old Looking4), I decided to address it later (new Looking4) as part of a conversation.

I told him how it made me feel and he said I was being "ridiculous". H said if those kinds of things are going to get me all "freaked out" and if I'm going to "blow up" those things, I've got really big problems. I told him it was a fresh example of something that didn't get me all upset or up in arms, but it bothered me as SDs do. I told him I thought I should talk with him about how I prefer him asking me how I feel about something -- verses saying "you have to do this" -- so we can work on removing resentment. He shook his head, walked away, and said as if he was talking to a 6-year-old, "From now on I'll make sure I ask you as nicely as possible so I don't ever upset you again."

So... I welcome any tips you can give me on expressing my feelings about LBs. This was just a little one and if I can't do that right, I don't know how I'll help him understand a LB that's bigger and more damaging. I know I can't teach him, but how do I get the LBs to stop -- those that keep chipping away at my L$?

Things are good then tense and good then tense. Overall, we're good.

I really love this time of year. We actually even had a few, fluttering snowflakes this morning. Since Monday we've had lows in the teens and highs in the low 30s. It's a bit warmer now (39 outside at the moment), but I'm of the mind that if it's going to be so cold, it might as well snow. Much funner that way.

(Wow! The Chargers just held a fantastic goal-line stand vs. the Cowboys. Don't see that very often.)

If you're following along, Sh0cked, you came to my mind this weekend. I hope you're doing well.

Wanted to check in on some friends and say hi and will try to do that later today or tomorrow. I'm doing well. I've lost 10 pounds, my jobs have relaxed a lot, our house looks fantastic, and I love my H.

Take care.

This may be going off-script, but if it was really not a big thing, would it be so bad to just say, "I don't feel like doing it that way. Sorry."??

Cuz I can see, from his point of view, that it would be extremely unappealing to have a relatively small turned thing morph into some big, touchy-feely, "girly" relationship emotional free-for-all. (Which I'm NOT saying you did, AT ALL, but I can sort of see how he might. Especially when you didn't address it in the moment.)

Maybe it's just me, but I really, really, don't think you're going to "get" to him by being absolutely perfect. And so, you should probably stop trying.

Are you equals in this relationship or not? If you are, and given that he's not even cognizant with MB, surely you get to say "Uh, no" once in a while without risking the entire she-bang. I dunno - I just see it encouraging him to take you even more for granted.

Writing this out I feel it probably isn't too helpful, but DANG, your situation just really irks sometimes.

And good for you for getting Christmas-ed up. Enjoy the season.

Hi L41!!

The cross is still brightly shining over the valley, and has been beautifully enhanced by the snow.

So glad you have had the chance to decorate for Christmas. My DD24 came up last week to help decorate the tree. She managed to bully her little brother (17) into helping for a few minutes. (SIL was working and DS21 is still at WSU until Wed.). It was such fun because so many of the ornaments carry such great memories.

I wish I was closer because I would love to go to a church Christmas Carol sing-a-long.

More later-just wanted you to know that you are in my thoughts and prayers.

Hey L4

I like the present/picture thing, had never thought of that I might judst do that.

I'd like to say well done for dealing as you did - a little later in sensible conversation.

My thoughts are that H was a little taken by surprise and couldn't find any other way to moveon from it other than the way he did.

I think as long as you don't mention that incident again and the next time it happens you handle it the same (by letting him know how you feel) he will begin to get the message.

When we enforce a new boundary it is usual for people to get angry. If he follows J's pattern he will think a lot more carefully about how he is talking to you (but won't apologise for what has happened). This would leave me still simmering away and a few days later (things nice and calm in J's eyes) I would bring it up again and he would be angry about that.

What I'm saying is, I think he will probably take it on board and go with it but I'm not sure what the best way is to deal with how you feel about his reaction to mentioning this issue to him. I know I would be screaming inside for an apology.

Hopefully he was lovely for singing

hope you had a lovely time

Emphasis mine. Just wondering L4, why you waited till later to bring it up? It may have been easier to discuss with your H if you had expressed surprise at the SD at the time he expressed it, especially if it is a complete change from the way you have done things previously.

I have a friend who is very clever and very professional, but at work had the dumb blonde thing off to a tee, and I can just picture her saying "gee Mr L4, that's an interesting idea you have, but I'm not sure I understand because I thought you were happy doing it they way we always had. Can we discuss this so I can understand the reasons for the change" delivered with a smile and a look of genuinely wanting to learn something interesting.

I'm not saying you should act like a dumb blonde but that you could have had a good conversation about his desire to do something differently at the time without it developing into an issue.


Let's make everything L4's fault so that I don't have to address any issues myself. He has to be willing to look at what he brings to the relationship but he's content to let you be the bad guy L4 and this has to change. You are responsible for the A but he is responsible for his part in the poor M and is 50% responsible for making this a good M.


You have to have O&H dialogue in an environment where you both feel safe enough to say what needs to be said without LBing. I'm not sure your H is capable of listening to you asking things of him without him pointing out that everything is your fault because you had an A. I don't believe you feel safe enough with him to express yourself.


Well done L4.

Take care yourself.

L4, I can totally relate to the deer in the headlights thing, needing to address it later because I'm so floored by the snowball of dread I feel when I'm SD'd. I promise you as you keep sharing your O&H, it gets easier and easier, until that confident feeling of New L4 will replace that old snowball old L4 felt. This weekend, I was at a neighbor's house, and the H SD'd the W, and instead of the old feeling nervous and clamming up, I shared my O&H there, too! "I hear this is important, but oh man it grates on me when you talk like that!" Good for you for sharing your O&H, and letting go of the response!

L4:

Addressing your issues is what this is all about.

So he didn't like it this time. Change is like that.

Next time, it will be better. Slowy but surely.

This is about building a new L4.

Merry Christmas!

LG

What is SD stand for? I thought people used that for step daughter on here.

6yrs. SD=selfish demand.

Hi L4, although I haven't been here much, I am reading along when I am.



Mr. L4's reaction is just that ..... his reaction.
How he chooses to react to your boundary, is his decision.

Time, patience and perseverance my dear!

Gosh L4, I forgot to give you my happy dance for losing a whoppin' 10lbs.


That is awesome!

Thanks, V and Sere. Officially at Jenny Craig it's 10.6, just shy of my halfway mark. There's a hot red dress that's been in my closet for about year that H bought me that is just dying to be worn out and about -- while on H's arm. Just one of my incentives.

Regarding the SD conversation... The reason I waited is because the original SD -- him telling me I need to do something -- got me ticked off in the first place. In fact, kerala, I did say, "No." He said that I would do it. I said no again. He said with emphasis that yes, I would be doing it. I asked why he just decided we needed to change the process after 13 years and his reply was that because we did A that way, now we should do B that way too. I asked why, since B was duplicating my work and he just kept saying "Because." I got more frustrated because to me all he was doing was repeating his SD -- not involving me in the decision at all. I had all kinds of comebacks and smart-aleck and other ways to look at it running through my head but I ended up shutting down because H wasn't listening and I didn't want to make things worse. That's why I waited until about an hour later, I approached him about the SD, he said I was being ridiculous... You know the rest.

Something good I forgot to mention last time. H and I had great UA time Saturday watching HBO's Rock N Roll Hall of Fame Special. We had it Tivo-ed, cranked it up, and watched one-of-a-kind performances. It was a good night.

Sunday night, H blew the kids and me off and didn't do the tree which made me sad, but that's not new as he often doesn't do decorations with us. He did last year so I was hopeful but not surprised.

Now for a good thing after a couple days of tense.

I'll skip over the details which help color the story but aren't critical. (This is already too long.) The tension culminated in a phone conversation yesterday with H while I was out shopping. He was interrupting me, yelling at me, and talking for me. I kept asking him to stop yelling at me. I kept asking him to stop interrupting me. Finally, when he had a 30-second dialogue with himself mimicking me, I said, "I can't have this conversation any more. I'm going to hang up. Good bye." I sat in the Big 5 parking lot and bawled. Certain that I can't do this any more. He. Just. Doesn't. Get. It. When you're discussing something with your partner -- and someone you supposedly care about -- you do not talk with that person the way H sometimes talks to me. I do not deserve it.

I got home. H was out buying a new tuner -- something that was contributing to the tension since Sunday. He came to me as if all was well and he said, "I'm sorry about our earlier phone call. And I didn't know about the door locks." We had had about 4 phone conversations so I wasn't sure what he was sorry for. I let it go though because I was still hurting and the time wasn't right to talk.

That time came today. I walked up to H and said, "Can we talk?" He said, "What'd I do now?" (This always encourages me -- not.) Then he told me that his mother just called and doctors have found a large mass in one of her kidneys that they're worried about. She's going in for tests next week. I thought I'd leave it 'till later, but H told me to tell him what was on my mind.

I asked H what he was sorry for when he apologized yesterday. He said for interrupting me. He said he knew I was upset. I told him that it's very defeating and demeaning to me when I'm trying to share how I feel about something and he interrupts, yells, and talks over me. Especially when we're discussing something that affect both of us -- such as our house (which was the topic yesterday), our family, or our relationship. Yesterday I was so demoralized, I told him, that I felt like a child. Like my opinion and feelings mean nothing to him. I said that he knows how I feel when he interrupts me, speaks for me, mocks me, or yells at me, and 'm going to have to walk away if any of that happens again. I cannot do that any more.

He listened. He paused. He apologized. And there wasn't a "but..." He said he'll try to keep what I said in mind and do better.

I didn't know what to do. I wasn't used to that response. I was hunkered down for defensive H and instead I got a humble, listening H. Oh my!

H is in a good mood. He's got his new tuner perfectly set-up and it does sound sweet. (He used to do audio for television production so he's got a great ear for that.) He's even looking at properties -- new houses and vacation houses and sharing these with me. (Something we used to do a lot for fun before D-day.) We will be going to a Christmas concert tonight and a lighted boat parade.

I'm worried about MIL and DD6 has head lice. (Ey-karumba!) But, as for H and me, it's been a good day.

Hope you and yours are having a good day too.

Have fun!!! :wavingsanta: