Fred you make my point. A lot of this IS in the perspective. And in this thread, one thing is clear - once both people stop working on the marriage, it spirals down.

Don't want to pick at scab (boy, I remember where you were at, and that was like 5 years ago for me) - how was the communication? Did she KNOW that's why you stopped?

THAT's an understatement. I agree with your husband. Note to the ladies: we are pretty dumb and don't have ESP.

Know what we are REALLY bad at? When you tell us your problems - do you want us to LISTEN or FIX them? You have to look us deeply in the eyes and say FIXING BAD or FIXING GOOD, depending on what you want. THEN, you have to remind us what you told us about every paragraph or so...

Oh we HEAR you, and we KNOW what the words mean individually, we just don't understand when you string so many of them together.

I only told her after the A started and she was adamant about leaving. At this point, we were having it all out, and her fogblather made discussing anything nearly impossible.

I now understand that neither of us were very good at communicating our needs. I was the worse of the two, as I grew up in a family where no one showed emotions and everything got swept under the carpet. Even knowing that, I found myself reverting back to learned behaviors to avoid "hurt feelings" and angry discussions. MB has opened my eyes very wide about the importance of communication.

I've already become a better man as a result. And I'm just beginning the MB journey.

When you want your H to listen ladies, here is a tip. Get a really tight t-shirt that has printed where your breasts are located, "Just listen, don't fix."

He'll get the message, really he will. As long as you wear that T-shirt when you want him to just listen, he'll understand you. He may not even be able to speak if that's all you have on.

Fred_in_VA,

Well you are doing way better than I was when I was where you are at. I too, used "the experience" to look at myself and I KNOW I am a better man. Way to go.

It's real easy to SAY "That which doesn't kill me, makes me stronger." It's another thing to walk the walk. When faced with a tough situation many end up saying "That which doesn't kill me, ALMOST does and it sucks."

So hats off to you man. The pain fades. Look at me, during my time I lived on this board. I needed the support. Now I'm back goofing for a day and already thinking about how my real life is being neglected. It will fill back up and you will heal. Especially with that attitude you have.

F#$%^ I'm giving to much information here, but what if your S has an ONS or a little more just because. No excuse, just because she can and has the IB to do it? But refuses you because of SH#$ excuses?

Ok, I'm a little confuse NC, I would have used a .38 so I don't quite understand because I'm a stupid male!?!

Sorry, I like who I see in the mirror too, and actually I consider myself smart but not emotional enough or too emotional depending on my W mood, but I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOUR ANALOGIES!!!

themud,

Been there, done that. It is VERY frustrating. I would say for the last 5 years of my marriage, my wife loved me but wasn't in love with me. I had to perform an act akin to something Mother Teresa would do for SF, and even then it felt like she was doing me a favor. But along comes OM, and she's a dynamo. (That was one of the hardest things to get over, BTW, that there was something wrong with ME).

We take the vows. And we promise to give, not take. Is not giving equal to taking? Is not taking equal to giving?

I will tell you something honestly - if I had to do it again, if I could rewind the last 5 years of my M, I would have said "Look, either your in love with me and we have SF, or I will take it as a sign you are NOT in love with me and I am moving on." That would have saved me some time. I would have done that BEFORE the affair.

What's strange is, if you and I were in a business relationship and we entered into an agreement to be equal partners, and you are in charge of manufacturing and I am in charge of sales. Suddenly, I'd rather goof off than keep up my end... (Mind you, I'm not doing anything WRONG to you, I'm not stealing or embezzling, just not acting in accord with our agreement) NOBODY would say you should stay in business with me. NOBODY would say tough it out. At BEST the advice to you would be "put NCWalker on probation, if he doesn't change performance, he's outta there... and by the way, you have to keep your nose clean so he doesn't countersue." (Strangely, VERY akin to Plan A and Plan B....)

But the marriage? Everyone, and I mean everyone, says "Tough it out... Save it at all costs because of the kids ...."

BULL.

I was 22 yrs old when I got married and I didn't know a damn thing about how to pick the right partner. My parents never taught me. My school never did. Why couldn't it have just been a real bad choice for me at the time? THAT's exactly what it was, just like a bad business choice.

I do need to insert an aside: In no way am I saying I didn't LOVE my wife when I married her, we were VERY much in love with each other, but knowing my temperament and hers, we should NOT have gotten married.

Were there kids involved? Yes. And it really is a shame that OUR bad choices affected them. But back to the business analogy ... don't think for a second a business choice like that doesn't affect families, it does. So "it's different because of the kids" is a ridiculous reason. You wouldn't stay in an abusive marriage "for the sake of the kids". How does it serve them if it is dysfunctional, other than showing them the WRONG model of what a marriage should be?

So why do we do it? Because most of society are too scared to go against the norm. There are a lot of marriages out there that SHOULDN'T continue. Not because the parties are bad, but because they aren't equally yoked.

My ex isn't a bad person. Neither am I. The things that are important to her aren't wrong, just different than what's important to me. We didn't mesh. We were literally doomed from the start.

When my ex went into affair la la land, I would have done ANYTHING to save the M. Ergo I found this board, and I really believe in it. I think the practices here are the BEST chance of recovering a marriage anyone has. They make sense on a fundamental level. They work. Success rate is too high to deny it.

She and I were a square peg and a round hole. This place was like grease. Would have made things fit together easier, but the fit would never have been comfortable.

Looking back, 5 years later, I am actually GLAD it happened. The relationships I have been in since have been WAY better as far as me meshing with the other person. And I am much more educated and discriminating about selecting a partner. I can spot a NO in a date or two.

I appreciate all the wonderful help I got on this board. It was timely, pertinent, too the point, and well thought out. Nobody, however, asked me then if I really thought it SHOULD be saved. I was saving it because it was in my nature "to do the right thing by my ex and my kids." I didn't stop then to think what that was.

I'm not advocating quitting on a marriage when it gets tough, but let's face it - how much wisdom do we actually have at 22? The longest relationship I had before I got married was 3 mos and I had never lived with a woman before that. What are the odds I'd pick the right one with my loins and hormones screaming GO THIS WAY.....

I have a 19 yr old son in college now. (YAAAY). Guess what dad MADE him read his HS junior and senior summers?

His Needs, Her Needs.
The One.
The Five Love Languages.

And we DISCUSSED them. We TALKED about his relationships with both his male friends and female friends. We talked about what their love languages were and all that stuff from those books.

Sex ed? Heck. The kids need RELATIONSHIP ed.

He's not going to make a great husband because of HIS character (and he IS a great kid, but I am biased), he is going to make a great husband because he has had some training on how to pick a wife that complements him.

NCWalker you are amazing! In fact, I think you've found a major root of the problem - education (or lack thereof). We are simply not taught what we need to know. Oh sure, we learn the biological mechanics of SF and we learn what all the parts are for. But what to do with it is grossly lacking and generally limited to "don't do it before your married", and at least for women, "men only want you for one thing". I believe this aspect of it is very counterproductive in a marriage. Of course when you are young and dating, it helps to be able to distinguish between the guys that just want to get laid and the ones that are truly interested in you. But given that this is really all we're ever taught about it, the process carries through to marriage as well. If a W starts to feel as though her H is asking too frequently, or at times when she doesn't want it - and especially if she gives in anyway leading to resentment (as Mel described), eventually she's going to feel as though her H only wants her for one thing. Because she's been taught from the cradle that the men interested in her for sex are not interested in anything else about her. It's one or the other. I believe I suffer from this dellusion to some degree myself.

It seems the thread started off as a blame. If SF is 'given' or not it is either the W or the H's fault. My posts, and other's, were taken as blaming the H. And to counter my post the argument is, let's place the blame on the W...

I never said anything of the kind. I said there was a problem in the Marriage. Sorry to get a little sarcastic here...but last I checked a marriage was between two people.

When one partners come on the forum and asks questions and seeks help, then help they get...to make what changes they can. There is no way to change another person, so they are given advice to change what they can about their behavior. Sometimes alot, sometimes..not so much...

Defending a position by saying it is all one person's or another's fault is not marriagebuilding. Everyone in a M has to take some responsibility, what part of the responsibility is up to each in the partnership.

In my R with my H, we have a whole other issue with SF where he has a sex addiction. I didn't cause it, I can't cure it, but I can choose to live with it or not... So SF becomes a whole other issue. I am happy to share affection and SF with him, as long as he is not using me to further his addiction. How do I know? I have learned to tell when he shuts off, and is in his fantasy, and we have worked it out that I will stop SF right then and there. He trusts me that I am not using this as punishment, and there are many times he holds back SF and affection when he knows he is not in a good place.

Without rereading posts, there was a W that talked very freely about SF, was very open, but I would venture to suggest that by being very frank about SF she may be fooling herself and others into thinking she is being open but not really espousing her TRUE feelings. Using the brashness of her talk as a way to stave off people, hold them at arm's length.

So my thought is this thread was started not as an honest dialogue about the EN SF but as a way for posters to be given a place to blame the W for lack of SF in a M without taking any blame themselves...

It's a confusing topic for sure. But one thing I believe in, after discovering this board, Dr Harley's books, this website, counseling with Steve, etc. is this:

THE PROGRAM WILL NOT WORK IF YOU CHERRY PICK IT. YOU MUST WORK THE PROGRAM IN ITS ENTIRETY.

Mel has said it, LG has said it, TST and SMB have said it, countless others have said it. And gee, what a coincidence--they *are* working the program in its entirety and their marriages are good!

The problem is what to do when you have one spouse not on board. For the non-believing spouse, it's a lot to take in at once. So the believing spouse tries to introduce the concepts slowly. And often they don't work well if they are done one at a time, or done onesided.

Case in point: The groping. My H likes to grope too. I would love to tell him how much of a turnoff this is for me. In fact, I have done so. But his response is an angry outburst. He thinks I should be hot for him 24/7 as I was when we were dating. Well in a sense, I am. I am still attracted to him (even though I'm about to kick his butt out the door but that's a different thread...) but just because I still think he's handsome, I still am attracted to him, does NOT mean I want him fondling my breasts while I'm doing the dinner dishes.

I have never been able to get this point across to him without either an angry outburst on his part or a big time sulk. And I know my statement is a huge LB for him (even though he doesn't know what an LB is....) because he is NOT familiar with the MB concepts and has no desire to learn.

What a quandary.

Take SF. I have gone through stages in our marriage where I had little to no desire either for physical reasons (I hated being pregnant and nursing destroyed my libido), or for emotional reasons (angry and upset with H, marriage in the toilet, etc.) But I've also had periods in the marriage where I was all over him like white on rice.

He remembers the "no thanks not tonight honey" stages being much longer and more frequent than I do. I remember the "white on rice" stages being much longer and more frequent than he does.

Who is to say who is right? We didn't keep a calendar.

But when I try to tell him that "white on rice" is the status quo when I'm feeling loved, cherished and connected to him, he gets angry. Part of this I can see from his point. He will do 2 or 3 things that he considers "nice" for me and want SF. And they are nice. But the underlying huge issues in our marriage still remain and as time moves on, those issues get larger and the offerings of "nice" mean less.

Recently, I've had to tell him that I can't play the part of his wife anymore as we have huge issues in our marriage and he is refusing to play any part in helping to rebuild. Honestly? I could easily jump into bed and engage in SF. It's a nice connection. But I'm being advised not to do so because it's confusing my larger and much more important message at this point. Now I realize my particular situation is different right now---but over the years SF has waxed and waned and I was just trying to offer y'all some different explanations.

OH, of course the program can't work if you don't have 2 people working it. MB never professes to force someone to do it against their will. That is an unrealistic expectation.

Secondly, your H is an alcoholic so the program wouldn't work anyway. An alcoholic is so self centered they can't possibly consider the feelings of another enough to engage in POJA. It's not that he is not "familiar" with MB, but that he wouldn't care enough to become familiar. I am amazed that you even attempt to practice MB concepts on an alcoholic. Dr H has been real clear that they don't work with an alcoholic. Rather, your answer is in AL-ANON.

So I don't get what the quandry is. What is the quandry?

I understand what you are saying about alcoholics. I am also trying to follow some advice given to me by Steve to get H on the phone with him. Have not been successful.

As an alcoholic, I have to say it just AMAZES me that one would expect rational thinking from an alcoholic. He will "remember" what serves his purposes, and nothing more. Debating with a person to whom truth means nothing is a waste of time and energy. Alcoholics are insane. Reality and truth are not his friends. Reality = what serves his best interest, and the truth be damned.

OH, I am not trying to be flip here, but an alcoholic is SELF WILL RUN RIOT. Your feelings are not even on his radar. They are a non-issue with him. An alcoholic only views his spouse as an opportunity to exploit or an annoyance. If you are not useful, you are an annoyance.

You understand this, right?

I'm not arguing with you Melody but EVERYONE, alcoholic or not, has skewed perceptions relative to reality. It's human nature. I'm talking about your response to my "white on rice" stages and his recollection of "no SF" stages. In this case, the following holds true:

There are three sides to every story. My side, your side and the truth.

And no, I am not going to Alanon anymore because I'm separating anyway. Yes, I still want to get him on the phone with Steve because no matter what happens, I am going to have to deal with him for the rest of my life since we have children. Might as well do it in a positive manner rather than an all out catfight every time.

Y'know, I started going to Al-Anon after WW had left. I'm not sorry I did, and although I don't attend as much as I could/should, I'm going to continue going. Because it's all about my recovery from the affects of the alcoholic's behavior.

Just my $.02

OH I actually understand what you are saying as my WXH was very similar to yours but he was NOT an alcoholic. My attempts to communicate my needs were met with AO's and DJ's. Honestly, I don't know what the answer is. I didn't know about MB at the time but even now I'm not sure how I could have applied it or if it would have worked. These discussions eventually became a sore point - to where any mention of anything remotely close to relationship talk was enough to set him off. For him, the matter was closed. I wish I could go back in time and counsel with the Harleys but I can't.

StillHere,

My intent was not to cast blame or force it on one party. I have just noticed that in society, the standards for exchange are pretty consistent EXCEPT for SF and adultery. And am curious as to why.

Mel posted a link to a video on another thread and Harley says in a survey of married people, most consider being betrayed the worst pain they have faced. I myself agree with that, I have faced some serious issues and my ex's affair(s) by far were the worst.

Now if I was married, and my wife withheld SF and I went outside the marriage there would be a LARGE number of men and women (not here, of course) who would say SHE got what she deserved and needs to learn how to keep her man happy. The ancient Chinese proverb comes to mind: Woman who keeps husband in doghouse, soon finds him in cathouse. That wouldn't be funny if it weren't a mockery of something true...

I'd bet for every person you could drag up in front of me from this board that said under no circumstances should I have gone outside the marriage, I could match you with a random person off the street that said the wife got what she deserved.

HOWEVER - if in my fit of not getting my sexual needs filled, I went out an raped someone (an excuse I have heard a rapist quote), there would be FEW people who agreed with my actions.

I would postulate that for many, the latter situation would be LESS painful to my wife. If I commit an affair, I am sending here a strong signal that she is no longer good. If I rape someone else, she could swallow that by saying I am sick.

My point is, though these offenses are different, they are not that different, yet the general societal response and opinion of them is that they are vastly different.

Heck, if an affair crops up in the office where I work, the guy is usually getting high fives, and if it's a girl, she is usually cannon fodder for gossip, or other guys are trying to see if THEY can get some. The fact that a family is destroyed and that there is a betrayed spouse out there who is in tremendous pain isn't even discussed.

That to me seems WAY out of proportion to the rapist...

Now here is an interesting point - ONE of these affairs involved a married couple, both worked here, but the husband deployed to Iraq. The wife at home ran around while he was gone. This came out, they are getting divorced and almost the entire place now refuses to speak to the WW. Why is it wrong to ONLY cheat on a deployed soldier, and not to cheat in general?

THAT's my point. There is something about SEX that makes it different. WE all here, educated through Harley's fine work, know the dangers. And the EAs (just as damaging) that we talk about aren't a big deal in the general public.

I was starting to date a girl a while ago. And now, I throw out Harley's concepts on like the second date. Sort of like a litmus test if I want to even bother. We were discussing sanctity of the eyes, etc. and I said it was a very bad idea to have close friends of the opposite sex. Someone will invariably get hurt. Now I do, I have GOOD friends of the opposite sex. One of them I work with and she is married. But I WILL NOT go to lunch with her alone. She is too close to my age. I know her husband, I like her husband and I respect THEIR marriage.

We are attracted to each other because we like and respect each other as individuals. We are NOT attracted to each other physically, and I intend to keep it that way. It is much easier to jump the fence if you are playing right next to it than if you are in the middle of the field, KWIM?

Well when I told this to the girl I was starting to date, she actually got angry. I couldn't believe it. She said something like "You actually mean that I shouldn't be allowed to have close male friends? That is the most f&^4ked up thing I have ever heard..." I said, it is not a question of "allow" it is a question of honoring the person you are with, to the extent that you won't put that relationship in jeopardy. The concept was offensive to her. It wasn't like a "I see where you are coming from, but I disagree..." it was OFFENSIVE to her.

Needless to say, there was not another date.

The point of my ramble is: as much as people SAY they are pro marriage, pro relationship, the reality of it is the MOST people want the PARTNER to be that way, but not have such constraints themselves. (Buyer, renter, freeloader....)

Harley says it better. I am just saying, look around, we are definitely a minority. By "we" I mean people who not only want the "good relationship," but willing to put the work where it is required to get it.

Commit rape, go to jail.

Commit adultery, half the people will give you high fives and say if your partner treated you right, you wouldn't HAVE to have done it.

My exercise it to put that logic in another situation and see if it sticks - it doesn't.

If I steal money from my company, NOBODY will say I wouldn't have had to if they paid me what I was worth.

OurHouse -
I disagree.

The program will not work AS WELL if you cherry pick it.

And here is a danger, a demon we all have to face. We have lost our stick-to-it-tive-ness. We follow the program ONLY until we see positive results. Then call it "good enough". Boy, this isn't going to make me a lot of friends around here, but I bet most people BS out here are guilty of this. I was. There were times I cherry picked it. Going through Plan A and Plan B is EXHAUSTING. Physically, emotionally, intellectually. It is one of the hardest things I have EVER done. Thank God for support here to keep me honest. Wouldn't it be great if SOCIETY considered adultery like alcoholism? Our movie stars check themselves in the Betty Ford clinic and they are heroes. Suddenly good examples of perseverance (even if it is their 3rd or 4th try).

Tiger Woods? We just want the details of who he slept with and download their pictures. Jiminy Crickets, if a VIDEO came out, I think the internet would explode.

Are we weak for cherry picking? Yes. To an extent. But we are in a minority. We have a hard fight where those around us don't really care... That's LONG ODDS to have the fortitude to follow the program to a tee. Again, thank God for this place. (There is another thread here, don't know which one, where someone was talking about a counselor saying this place was a bad idea. Man I'd like to take that counselor out back and give 'em what for).

Tabby1 - I literally spend 35% of my time in other countries for long periods. Guess what, because of what I learned here, I have become a student of marriages. There are a LOT of arranged marriages out there. They have a HIGH success rate. Why? I believe it is because they ARE arranged. I think the parents of the kids are looking at EACH other, and if they see compatibility, they feel the marriage will work. I am not saying we should switch to that system (I am not saying we should NOT either...) I am saying that unbeknownst to them, they are applying principles they have learned over time to the selection of a marital partner for their children.

Personally, I think it wise to just TEACH the children these principles. I think Harley has adopted one of his books to teens (though I am not positive).

Thanks for posting that Tabby. I am NOT disputing what ML and others say about my husband's behavior and how alcoholics behave in general, but I refuse to simply chalk up all his behaviors to alcoholism. Did you know that many alcoholics wind up divorced AFTER they hit recovering status? That's because the underlying issues are not addressed.

Perhaps he would be more open to MB if he were not in such a sorry state of personal affairs right now. Perhaps not. I think this is what Steve is trying to get at with my by encouraging me to continue to try to work on getting him on the phone.

Mel,

I would like to point out that there are MORE addictions that alcohol that result in the same net effect of the addict's logic totally driven to the next fix.

Obvously drugs, but don't forget gambling, sexual addiction, adrenaline addiction, and one that I think is going to have HUGE repercussions over the next decade we barely understand - online gaming.

Alcohol and drugs - you can get people on board because a drunk driver puts everyone at risk. Online gaming is one of those ones that doesn't affect the neighborhood, so society doesn't care. But it is a vehicle for destroying the person in a relationship with the addict AND a bee line for predators to interface with minors.

Not saying it's bad, my children play them, but I am personally more concerned about that than drugs as far as they are concerned.