Writer1
You are becoming a wonderful asset to this forum.
Just thought you should know that.

Thank you Pepper. You just made my day.

NJ and others,

You said something that really really stopped me in my tracks. You said

I saw this and it brought me up short. Why? I really had to think about this. First, most here don't know me, but I am a guy. I am an older guy. I grew up in the military where men have very definite views about honor and respsonibility. I chose a military education over the standard university, I was in the military, I play college sports (football and baskeball). I have been in more than a few fights in my life against armed men.

In short I was reared in as much of a "all male" environment as anyone around. The men I idolized were all combat veterans with many many medals.

Yet as I think about your statement it sort of shocked me.

I was taught that a man will die to protect his family, hell he will die to protect his country, something far less personal. A man won't tolerate bad behavior even from a W. A man speaks his piece and means what he speaks. A man won't tolerate someone attacking his family or friends.

Yet with all of that I was taught that a man can and should forgive the repentant. A man always takes care of children especially innocent children which enter his life. A man endures pain to do what is right, and taking care of innocent children and repentant family members is RIGHT.

I have no doubt that AD's, and Writer1's H's have suffered because of this. I KNOW that Pop's has suffered but he endures and has earned forever my highest regard as a MAN I know would have my back if I needed it. I know K (a long ago member and one who has had the most profound affect on me) has suffered but has also received great joy from rearing a son, that was not his.

While I know most any man, would have a hard time handling this situation, I don't think it is difficult to comprehend a man loving his W enough and loving children enough to rear an OC IF the W was committed to him and their marriage. I don't mean to imply that a man walking away from that is a bad man. I mean simply that the concept of honor, duty, sacrifice, as such, is so strong within me that I have a hard time thinking that most men would not consider remaining and rearing an OC. Whether they ultimately made that decision or not is a different matter.

Oddly in my view of things, this is not about an AD or Writer1 and whether they have handled things correctly. It is about their H's and how they handled things. The H's stories are what this is about, it is about hope, it is about trying to do the right thing in a painful situation. AD, Writer1 and others are just the carriers of the story. Don't shoot the messenger, is my thought.

Just my thoughts.

JL

JL,

Thanks for the alternate perspective.

I had a similar discussion when out walking with my wife three weeks ago. She had a professor 25 years ago who killed himself and she never understood why as the professors wife had just given birth. It dawned on me while walking that the child was not his. My wife said oh I guess that makes sense. I added that, If thats true it's too bad he didn't off the other guy before he offed himself which my wife thought was horrible, but I said would restore honor to the wronged part.

So perhaps if the wronged party offs the other guy I could see a man raising another mans DNA.

Perhaps some of us are Old Testament and others New Testament.

NJ

NJ: Uhhhhhh...... It seems unlikely that a man would be able to raise another man's DNA if he offs the guy first, considering the fact that he would in all likelihood be in jail. For a very long time. Maybe forever.

JL: You are a wise man. You really gave me a new perspective on this. What you said makes a lot of sense when I apply it to my H and our situation. My H has a very strong sense of honor and duty. Thank you for sharing that.

NJ,

The chief of all the defilers/ wronging parties what ever in this scenario is the man's own wife. I can imagine the murder of the OM seems chivalrous to you , but to me it denigrates the capacity of the woman to be a full person. (obviously rape is another case). I can feel the emotional side of this but we are not ruled by our emotions (as per the example that we all THINK that affairs are wrong).

On the thinking side, the wife decided to give this to another man. She may have even lied to him about her marital status, pursued him relentlessly, who knows what else. This wife is a person of independent capacity so she is the bad actor.

You can introduce the emotional argument of "I have a right to take vengeance on the OM he defiled my family..." I'll agree with you if you also provide his wife with your WW's daily schedule so she can have her rightful revenge.

6YL,

Given the statistics on female on female murder ,(single offender single victim), 200 for the US 2008 FBI site, vs the large number of discovered affairs, I would say the probability is rather low 0.1%?

if you also provide his wife with your WW's daily schedule

I should do HER footwork.

NJ

NJ,

So are you saying that it is the right thing for her to do and that the odds are in your favor of succeeding. Perhaps she could put her husband on the job as a way of winning her back. Seems like you are advocating the death penalty for cheating, just not for your WW.

Plus I will tell you that female murderers are under investigated and under prosecuted.

I really think that the focus for the BS should be squarely on three things

1) Ending the A (via MB recommendations)
2) Putting in a good plan A while they decide what to do
3) Deciding and acting, all in or all out.

But pep, unless I am not understanding...

There was no affair that created an OC in any of that.

Dating someone, then seperating, then dating/marrying them later after they had a child is not the same as producing a child from an affair during a marriage.

It's comparing apples to Skyscrapers.

I'm saying DNA is not the be-all end-all of Family.

That's ALL I'm saying.

Pepper, I agree.

Nned: How are things going?

W1,

However it is an enjoyable experience to be mistaken for my Brother, who I lost for 30 some years, by my Nieces and Nephews when I call my Sisters house. That is due entirely to our shared DNA, our mitocondrial DNA would be an exact match.

For someone who has not experienced it, it is difficult to understand the feelings of non-being, inferiority and invisibility an OC feels.

DNA is not all we are as people, but it must be at least 1/3 of who we are. It is a testament written in every one of our trillions and trillions of cell.

God Bless
NJ

NJ: I am an OC myself. Believe me, I understand.

i have to say again very interesting read.

nj, when you think about it, if one chooses to be Old Testiment it takes the problem of "offing" om out of the equation. i am assuming you are talking "an eye for an eye".

if that is the case then revenge would be knocking up om w or gf, don't you think? then where would the mess be?

gack i think the point of pep's post was not an oc from an A but that "family" is way more then dna.

jl i think you hit the nail on the head (as usual) with

""""""""""I don't think it is difficult to comprehend a man loving his W enough and loving children enough to rear an OC IF the W was committed to him and their marriage.""""""""""

early on in the discovery of my w's A i was talking with a good friend about what to do. his gut reaction was kick her to the curb. then within 5 seconds he asked "wait, do you love her?"

my answer was yes. so he told me then i need to try and work thru it. if it doesn't work you can always walk away later.

i loved my w and i loved my family. i had already had the experience of being a part time dad with my oldest son and knew that i didn't want that for our com's.

so, ad and w1, i don't think your h's are all that difficult to understand. they loved their w's, they loved their kids, they took stock in the words they spoke in their wedding vows, and above all they had w's that were truly remorseful and made every effort they could to repair the damage that was bestowed upon the marriage.

i see and understand the knee jerk reaction of throw her/him out in these situations. i guess that's why they say don't make any quick decisions and you never know until you wear the shoes.

maybe it is easier for a bh to accept an oc then a bw. after all the child is living in his home 24/7. once he makes the bond and connection with the oc it seems a natural.

whereas for a bw (in most cases) she may only see the oc for 32 hrs every 2 weeks. do the math. that's less then 10% of the time. then take off sleep time of at least 16 hours. doesn't leave time for connection and makes it much harder for that bond to be established.

I know i haven't been able to keep everyone updated on my situation and i apologize but i have been extremely busy and haven't had time but i will get a chance here pretty soon to let everyone know what is going on. Just so you know W ended up having an abortion i did not support it but i didn't really try to stop her either. I told her it was her choice. She says that she thought it would be the right thing to do but after she got there she changed her mind and they told her she was just nervous and drugged her up to the point that she didn't really know what was going on. she was pretty upset about it and i feel kind of bad for not doing more to stop her. And as far as we go things are pretty much still the same i have no love for her and do not want to be with her but i am still staying at the house and I think we are about to start counseling here pretty soon. I told her I would stay through the holidays at least for the kids and that we would ty counseling and if things didn't get better then we would call it quits after the the new year.

Thanks for all the support and advice and i will definitly keep you guys updated.

"I told her it was her choice. She says that she thought it would be the right thing to do but after she got there she changed her mind and they told her she was just nervous and drugged her up to the point that she didn't really know what was going on."

WW will need IC for this abortion. The murder of her child will haunt her.

Abortion.

A WW�s affair is a betrayal of the BH.

An abortion is the WW/mom�s betrayal of her innocent OC.

Bad decisions keep leading to further bad decisions.

I agree and it's funny you say that because when i had my A pretty much everything around me came crashing down, I almost lost my family, I lost my career, I lost alot of my friends and she is going through that now. For those of you out there who do not believe in Karma, it is true!

I was so saddened by your latest news that I thought I would read your thread again fro the beginning, and I came across this. I don't think it was ever picked up on before.

What on earth happened there? What has your wife been through, and now this?