Now, see, that's great. Why can't I think stuff like that through? It's like my BS fog has me paralyzed from the neck up.
Thanks Cat.

Had an amazing talk with Steve this am. Plan to transcribe as much as I can and put the highlights down here for others' benefit. Having said that, if anyone reading this has ever considered phone counsel with the Harleys - hugely recommended. Steve has a way of cutting through to what is pertinent to the situation at hand (YOUR situation). It was my second talk and my WW had a talk with him last week. There's no easy fix here folks, but he can lay out a plan and ten coach you through it.

Cat - we talked about the trip. He assigned me to write a letter/day for her to open as the trip goes. I'm to give them to her father to give her every day.
I have so much work to do. He also wants us both to re-do our LB and EN inventories. And call him as a group before she leaves (I hope she goes for it).

As far as the money. He pointed out that a WW often doesn't see the cost/benefit the same way BS does because they simply aren't in a mode to think it's possible to save the M in the first place. It would be like [censored] VanDyke asking for money to fix Chitti-chitty Bang-bang; he sees the potential, but the wife thinks it's ridiculous. (I'm paraphrasing and interpreting - he made no such reference!)
YKWIM...

Opt

Good news opt - isn't progress a wonderful thing!

You're right Linus. Although the progress seems so incremental at times it's hard to see. But it's better than the alternative.

I feel like I'm turning a cruise ship around 180 degrees in the harbor. Lot of work but it doesn't even seem like the ship is moving.

Talked to WW about some of what Steve discussed with me. One concept was that of responsibility. To wit: it's my responsibility to meet the conditions that will make my wife be in love with me. The concept of unconditional love, therefore is largely fantastical, even mythological. I can elaborate in later posts, and I'm certainly not doing the discussion justice here; but he makes a very convincing argument.

Another important idea is that of the modification of one's belief system. Making changes in our behavior (like we're doing in plan A...) is not enough if we don't modify our belief system of what makes a marriage mutually enjoyable. He cautioned me that without it, going back to the behaviors that set up the atmosphere for WW's A will occur again sooner or later without a change in that belief system. (I've been thinking of it as a paradigm shift). My situation is a sad example of just how true this point is.

The changes I make this time around will be real, permanent and rooted in a better understanding of romantic love. Thanks to MB, this board, SH, SAA, HNHN, etc.

Keep it real.

Opt

Cat,
Thanks. This was the perfect way to handle it. I had that talk with the kids a few days ago, and now all it takes is a "look" and they vacate the premisis. It's so subtle that WW is hardly the wiser for it and we've been able to have a few moments of UA time (a EN that WW is quite reluctant to allow me to offer her lately).
opt

UA time? Uninterrupted Affection? I can't find this acronym.

Undivided Attention...

It comes for Dr Harley's Policy of Undivided Attention.

You did read the basic concepts, right?

Ah, yes. I did a quick check on EN and didn't see it there. Thanks.

Right, UA isn't an EN. It is a summary of the Rule of Time, an entire rule all to itself. Mostly because you can't fill Love Banks if you don't spend time together... meeting any emotional need, or showing you can avoid Love Busters, DEMANDS that you spend time together.

IIRC, the only emotional needs which don't require the Rule of time are Financial Support, Family Commitment, Domestic Support, and Physical Attractiveness. Every other one requires you to spend time together.

Reminder of the four rules:
1. The rule of Protection. Avoid being the cause of your spouse's unhappiness.
2. The rule of Care. Meet your spouse's most important emotional needs.
3. The rule of Time. Take time to give your spouse your Undivided Attention (UA). This is understood to mean a minimum of 15 hours per week without distractions (like children!) when you are meeting each other's most important emotional needs. Typically, you're fulfilling the four you should not fulfill with any other member of the opposite sex: intimate conversation, sexual fulfillment, recreational companionship, and admiration.
4. The rule of Honesty. Be radically honest with your spouse.

Fred, Mark, Barnboy,
Thanks for checking in with me, guys. I was having a rough morning I think b/c I haven't been able to post and get any affirmation about things lately. I have come to rely on my 'on-line support group.' It helps me stay on track and know that I'm doing the right thing.

Since Thursday I've been feverishly writing letters for my WW to read while she's away on a 2 week trip (SH's suggestion). They will be distributed daily by her Father. I'm giving them to him on Christmas, the day before they leave.They are mostly love-letters but I'm not getting into any education (or, G-dforbid any DJ's, etc). A couple will just be quick notes. I'm also giving a few to DS who will also be on the trip.
I really hope she comes back next year with a new outlook, but I have no expectations and plan to continue with plan A.

Meanwhile, the w/e was so up and down (not dramatically, I'll elaborate later). I have a few things to update and am anxious to hear the board's perspective or even just get some encouragement. Plan A would be a lot easier if I didn't have to work for a living.

opt

PS: after WW and DS leave I'll have time to put down a few more notes from my conversation with Steve; I've been re-listening to it and there are a lot of good concepts in there. It's funny how you think you understand something until you actually discuss it live with someone who really knows what their talking about.

Make sure in some of those letters that you include tidbits about your previous life together, happy times, etc., dates you went on...

Also include what your vision of the future would look like. Give her something to look forward to. What has she always wanted to do, that marriage got in the way of? Promise her that stuff.

Excellent Cat, I'll be sure to include all of those elements. I had been thinking of a couple of those things but not all.
opt

Excellent Cat, I'll be sure to include all of those elements. I had been thinking of a couple of those things but not all.
opt

It seems I have a couple minutes so I wanted to update my status. Over the w/e my WW actually kept her promise to volunteer at church with DS's youth activity. I thought she might bail. Then on Saturday night she had to work; Sunday no going out. I have been as diligent as possible with intel gathering and at this point either she's gone way underground or contact has all but halted at least for now. I don't expect it to continue b/c she has never really agreed to NC and has yet to put in place any real barriers. But the lack of contact has at least allowed plan A to be a little more effective.

So effective that she actually talked to me tonight - the closest thing to intimate conversation we've had in a looooong time. I was careful not to try to educate and I listened real intently. We got into a little of R discussion but just enough for me to let her open up a little. She stated that she was "waiting for good feelings for you to come, since you're doing all these nice things." She said she was feeling impatient. She said that she didn't want to "lead me on" into thinking she was on board, but that she wanted to enjoy the good-will I was showing her. I recalled that I had been having a tendency to react to her enjoyment of my plan A with a little too much affection (a couple of times this has happened) by initiating a hug - which would shut her down [it's such a learning process].

I tried hard to understand the whole thing from a MB/WW point of view and kept in mind there was probably fog and WD happening and who-knows-what kind of guilt issues.

Without trying to educate I tried to impress upon he that she could feel free to enjoy my efforts without reservation because basically they weren't going to stop. I explained that I had been shifting my belief system over the past several months and have come to appreciate a new understanding of what it means to care for a spouse. I explained that the change in my belief system was permanent. I expressed to her my sincere hope that it was her that was around to see the benefits of my new understanding in the future. I also was able to approach the subject of "ideal situation" (another SH concept) and was able to actually hear her say that she wanted to be in love with me.

After that she asked to go do some Christmas shopping with me. (!!). I had to pick up hampsters for daughter and was planning to do it tomorrow on my own. So...more undivided attention (for the most part) driving to store (20 min) and recreational activity (shopping). We talked some more and she expressed some concerns that I was going to take on the lion's share of responsibility within the relationship. She stated it in terms of domestic support but I believe she is truly worried about her ability to meet my EN's down the road. Right now, I'm not worried about that. I'm just glad we got to the things we did.

I told her without using the word "love buster" that I had developed a new understanding of what it means to protect her from harm and that my tendency to react to her moodiness in the past was something I was working to change; not just to be nice, but because I now really see how being defensive is damaging and hurtful to her. I gave a couple examples of how my new approach was applied over the past couple of weeks and how much better things turned out than they would have in the past.

On the way home she stated that she has not "gotten any texts from him (OM)," I'm inclined to believe it b/c typically she just won't bring it up if he's contacting her. I couldn't help myself and retorted "don't worry, he'll be back" (a bit reactionary and pesimistic, but I really want her to know I'm not fooled by any of it). Hopefully plan A has been working enough that she'll detach from him prior to his next attempt to re-establish contact. Better yet, by then she will unfog enough to start understanding the importance of NC; perhaps with SH's help if she ever agrees to another conversation with him.

That's about where I'm at. Thanks for everyone's patience. As always, I'm interested in any comments or suggestions.

opt

I think that listening to her was far more important than explaining to her about stuff.

Your comment about OM making contact with her at a later stage could be taken as a compliment, if it was expressed nicely.

Carry on listening. Steer the topic away from relationships to a topic that she is interested in. Maybe her clothes and what looks good on her?

Great news opt - nice to hear from you. Thanks for the update.

Thanks imagine. I'm sure you're right. Listening is not easy.
I took your advice into our counselling session tonight and did my best to just listen.
She was asked to describe my behavior over the last couple of weeks. "quietly available" was her assessment. She's softened considerably and seems more comfortable around me.
I think I'm making progress. I think we're making progress.
At some point if this keeps up I might have to start wondering when recovery starts.
In fact, because I like to have an end-game, when does recovery start? Not trying to get ahead of myself, don't worry. I have a lot of work to do, and I suspect NC will be broken again with Christmas coming up "I just wanted to wish you merry Christmas, blahblahblah." She doesn't get the whole NC thing and I haven't found a way to explain it without educating her.

I also really want to solidify my plan A and what is essentially a new belief system for me (what goes into a mutually enjoyable marriage) for a reasonable period. Enough to feel like I can trust myself.
We also have this trip coming up - 17 days separated. I've got letters for almost every day for her Dad to give her while she's gone with DS13. I hope she comes back with a new perspective on life.
When would recovery start?

opt

This is usually expressed in terms of your feelings...

Do you get any response from her when you describe your anguish?

I've been trying so hard not to bring up the A. I think of SAA where Jon was not allowed to bring it up during recovery. The philosophy being that distance and time would heal the wound. What I was failing to recognize is that they were in recovery. Am I right?

So, the principle doesn't apply.

Here's the problem. I'm not sure if I could express my anguish without going into DJ's and general LB's. I have tremendous animosity and ill-will towards this loser (I could elaborate, but you get the point :/). It also makes me mad that she doesn't seem to recognize the negative impact he has had on our family. How he set out purposely to tear us apart and almost succeeded. Her friend told me that he had actually made it a goal of his some months ago to seduce her (WW). Some friend - never thought to mention it to anyone. He wanted to take my place, and actually thought it was possible. All friendly with the kids, giving them things, playing with them. I suppose part of my anger is at my own ignorance and lack of ability to see his end-game. I suppose I'm angry at WW for betraying trust - a colossal miscalculation at the time. She played me, down and sideways and he made me look like a total fool. I actually trusted him(my midwestern naivete)- talk about self-loathing...

I can get over all that. I can. I can be part of rebuilding a Marriage more fantastic than anything we have imagined up to this point. But there will be hurdles. And the NC hurdle is one (among others) I'm looking at right now.

Should I write a letter, so I am not tempted to lose my cool?

Opt

What will you do if she never writes the NC?

Have you giving yourself a date of when you want the NC written?

Is this something you are willing to compromise?

Do you see yourself moving forward without the NC in place?

Trust is something that is so easily destroyed. A BS no longer trusts the WS. The BS no longer trusts friends. The BS no longer trusts people they meet on the street. They no longer trust business associates.

And of all the trust that is the hardest to regain, a BS never really trusts themselves to make moral and ethical judgments about other people since the one person they believed with all their heart and mind that they could trust above all others is the very person who betrayed them.

We see things once the trust is gone that lead us to believe that we should have seen them sooner. We think that this stuff that is so readily apparent after the fact should have jumped out at us and made us realize that we were GOING to be betrayed. If we had only seen then what we so easily see now, we could have prevented it from happening.

This assumes that it was up to us to prevent it and means that we are to blame for it.

Of course those things were not really so in our face before the betrayal began. That's because before the betrayal they weren't really there at all. They didn't happen until the betrayal had already begun and by then, they were being concealed from us. Our WS was actively betraying us AND pretending that none of those signs were there.

It wasn't our choices that betrayed us but the choices of the WS. We didn't cause this and we didn't let it happen.

If we had known then what we know now, our entire life would have been different. Those who wish they had never married the WS will probably never really recover. They may remain married and perhaps will even have times of happiness but what was lost will be like a lost arm or leg, something that will remind them every day that the betrayal made the things they believed with all their heart and mind to not be true at all.

Those who wish they had worked to make the marriage a better one before being betrayed are more likely to recover. This assumes a truly repentant FWS working to repair the damage.

An affair is like cancer to a marriage. Once it is discovered action can take place to rid the marriage of that cancer. For some, it will mean the loss of a limb while for others it will result in scars that will remain forever. Unfortunately for others it will result in the death of the relationship.

Just like some cancer treatments work better than others, MB seems to give the best possible chance to those unfortunate enough to be diagnosed with what will surely change their world and their view of it forever.

Those who survive cancer are called survivors because is seems so few manage to survive. Those who rid themselves of cancer never refer to themselves as cured, only as being in remission. They are former cancer patients forever even when they live a full, normal and happy life from that day forward.

Mark