newjersey:
I have it narrowed down to two people from texting and cell phone calls. I know one of them as a friend who has attended parties in my home and I have the name, age and addresses of the other one. One is a former boss, and the other a college student where my wife attends college. My money is on the college student (a retired USAF Pilot). My web snooping is extremely deep as I hold a research position and often utilize those skills. Unfortunately I work 75 miles from home and long hours with minimal vacation so following did not pan out. GPS tracking still on-going but the car was often left parked at college so transport was apparently by OM. Our Home computer is not utilized if e-mail is utilized at all. Pay phone was being utilized in the past. I appreciate the facebook suggestion, and I have covered all social networking, etc.
It was kind of intersting to realize that my WW took all the precautions when contacting the OM but kind of forgot to take precautions when talking with one of her close friends on the cell phone about him. That happened repeatedly over the last few months.
At this point my best information is cell phone calls to her girl friend. These suggest that my WW decided to end it and concentrate on us. By the way, if you are or were a Verbally Abusive person, there is no better way to see the price you pay than to listen to your wife's hurt and pain than to tape record her talking to a girl friend about it. It was easier to hear about the A than it was to hear her quoting me talking to her. I am so filled with remorse (a shade different than guilt) and regret. But Plan A is helping and I thank God that I read about Love Busters and started to recognize myself.

HT,

By the way, if you are or were a Verbally Abusive person

I really heard that, you are so right about the self recognition that reading the threads on this site allows, it was like seeing myself for the first time. Shocking isn't it?

This is really the only site I've found that makes sense for saving ones marriage, I think in large part because it encourages truth, and has a very practical program for improvement.

NJ

HT, just a watchout that concerns me in your situation. BS's that were abusive before the affair have a tendency to overcompensate, to the detriment of their marriage. They go to the opposite extreme. I have also seen BS's do this who had affairs in their own past, as an example.

These BS's fear any confrontation [even when warranted] or any rational observance of boundaries. So instead of being abusive, they allow themselves to be abused, which leads their spouse to unrealistic expectations of entitlement. And having an affair and lying to your spouse are examples of ABUSE.

Your past abuse of her does not entitle her to abuse you TODAY. Nor does its' allowance help your marriage today or in any way compensate for your past verbal abuse. It is sometimes tempting to blame ourselves for our WS' affair in an effort to make ourselves FEEL like we actually have some kind of control. The truth is that while we harmed the marriage, the choice to have an affair is 100% the responsibility of the WS.

Thanks MelodyLane: I take your advice to heart. The only control I have now is over myself and I have yet to fully trust myself and may never do so when it comes to firing words in a loud voice. I will take a great deal of patience on my part before she reveals to me I guess. It would be easier to get it over with but I can't coerce that. I sometimes see the entitlement mentality briefly that you mention. I have to hope that our coaching and time will allow her to put it all together. I am still amazed at how my defenses prevented me from realizing my verbal abuse. It doesn't seem possible that I could not have seen myself but I really did not. I may be dealing with something similar. Its hard at times.
Thank you for your comments.

Just an update. Last night in a gentle happy conversation my wonderful, gentle WW just suddenly slid in the statement that "My problem is that I tend to trust too much."
We were talking about one of our young adult children and his heart of gold (never mind that he is a combat tested Marine). I guess its a table scrap of a comment but it may be (I can hope) that my Plan A work to stop verbal abuse is making some in roads. It has been years since my WW has ever talked about herself in a revealing manner in any way.
I did not jump on the comment but I know that my WW knows I am very analytical and that she is certain I heard it.
I continue to be hopeful that one day she will let the secret (its not really a secret and she knows that) out. Maybe this was a first step. And I am not known as an optimist folks.
At this point since I know about the A already (I just don't know a name for certain and details)I am just hopeful that we continue to progress.
I have already gone through days of crying jags, depression (I lost 38 pounds in less than a month), and guilt, and I have taken an anger management course and am taking another...
I guess I am trying to think how to react if and when my WW goes further and tells me.
How should I respond? Right now I am thinking that the best thing I could do is to say something to the effect that "It must have taken tremendous courage to tell me this. I still love you." And then retreat to deal with my emotions for a little while. Thoughts?
I don't want to get angry. At this point one "Aw Crap" moment from me would destroy 7 or 8 months of "At-a-boys."
Any voices of experience on either side of this?

hurtingturkey,

With all due respect, I must tell you that this phrase by you, "my wonderful, gentle WW" quite nearly caused me to choke on my own tongue...Seriously, that is a HUGE oxymoron my friend...I am telling you this as a FWW myself, please keep that in mind...There is NOTHING wonderful or gentle about a wayward wife...No way, no how...Now, IF she was a FORMER wayward wife that would be different, but your wife is clearly still wayward by virtue of the fact that she hasn't been honest with you about who OM is...I don't care if you were a verbal abuser prior to her affair - that still doesn't justify her abuse - CONTINUING ABUSE - of you...Please understand that recovery begins with HONESTY...Until that happens, any "progress" you are perceiving isn't genuine...I'm sorry to be blunt, but you must open your eyes here...

Mrs. W

It's goog you are getting help with the verbal abuse deal. But, as the above poster says, you are going somehat overboard in your characterization of your wife, a known cheater and abuser herself, by definition.
If hs ereveals, no need to go ballistic. You can express anger without being abusive. You can also express pain and dissapointment. These are all natural.
Your wife would have to be nuts to expect any spouse not to be upset with news of her cheating.

MrsWondering

I understand your message. Respectfully I perceive the fact that I still have a marriage as progress. I don't deserve to have one. IMHO Verbal abuse can be worse than infidelity. It is a licensed rubber hose that you beat your marriage partner with and our culture accepts it. You never suffered under my verbal slings and arrows. BUT that's a story for another thread. Yes my WW is wonderful and gentle. She is far too gentle for the wolves in the world. I do value your opinion but my question stands. I am certain my WW is terrified that I will turn back into the Vitriolic Husband that I was if she tells me. I know that I would be.
Do I deserve to punish her with words if she finds the courage to tell me? She never, ever expected me to find out. In my view she coped with our marriage by doing the wrong thing. And yes it hurts. And yes the wrong thing is 100% her issue as the verbal abuse is 100% mine. I considered suicide only a few months ago. I stopped and did not purchase the ammunition but I came closer than you or anyone on this board might want to know. I coped with a bad life experience earlier in my life by doing the wrong thing and being verbally abusive to a wonderful gentle woman who loved me (and since I use verbal words for a living, trust me I am REALLY GOOD at whatever I use my tongue for). As I told my mother in law... I won't ask you to forgive me until its been ten years without me being verbally abusive.
Yes my WW is both wayward and wonderful and gentle. Is a premeditated A abusive? Yup. But I now have the benefit of realizing that I was verbally abusive for years and thought nothing of it. I just did not see the pain I was causing which is absolutely crazy but true. So yes, I can see why someone can have an A and think nothing of it. And if the fog lifts my WW may be just as horrified at herself as I am at myself. If I had my head on straight I would have seen what someone else saw- a beautiful, wonderful, gentle wife who was being abused. I belong in jail and if this country ever gets its act together we will make verbal abuse a felony. Over time (years), it is worse than physical abuse. Think her A was not partly my opening the door? Contact me off line and I will be happy to send you a half dozen four and five page single spaced letters that my WW sent me over the course of two years begging for me to stop being Verbally Abusive.
So... now that I have established that my WW is wonderful and gentle (and by the way I would not be able to stop my verbal abuse if I did not view her this way...)...
How should I respond if she finds the courage to tell me? Because it will take terrific courage for her to do so. And I think she might.
Please keep this thread on my question.
Thanks

HT, I think the difference is that you are facing your own abusive behavior whereas you are all pretending hers doesn't exist at all. That is not the solution to the problem.

Is there some reason why you don't produce your evidence of the affair and have an HONEST discussion of her affair? Get this out in the open?

The way you have handled this is to trade one dysfunction for another by pretending there is not an elephant in the room. The solution is stop ALL ABUSE, not just some abuse. And do so honestly.

Confronting her can be done respectfully, but pretense is not respectful. This pretense assumes she is too weak, incapable, incompetent [fill in the blank] to answer for her behavior. Protecting her from the consequences of her actions is not respectful, but to treat her as a child.

Your wife may be "gentle" but surely she is a capable enough woman to face the consequences of her bad behavior? In other words, she is not mentally ill, is she? The way you describe her, she is incapable of facing life like a normal, healthy functioning adult woman.

She was certainly capable of an affair KNOWING the possible consequences she might face if found out.

I ain't buying it.

If you don't get this out in the open, your marriage will NEVER be what it COULD be with 100% honesty and openness.

BUT HT,

Your W has not even admitted she had the A right? You said you have proof, but you have not shown her. So while you were abusive, and have taken actions to correct it. She IS wayward and has not taken any actions to correct it.

Whether the A is ongoing or not, she is still lying to you. Whether the A is ongoing or not, she is still using it as a tool to make YOU behave better. Talk about being beat with a rubber hose, that is what she is doing. Your comments here clearly indicate that this is hurting you deeply.

Your "gentle and kind" W is a lying adultress. Are you seeing something here that I and others are seeing??

You lied to yourself before about your behavior and it being alright, it was not. You know that now, but you are still lying to yourself, and until you quit that you are not as far along as you would like to be.

You may want to consider communicating about the issue of the OM by email or letter, something written where you can consider your words carefully. You have described your fear, your pain, and your embarrassment very clearly on this thread. You might want to consider communicating with her about this in the same manner. She needs to see what you fear. She needs to know this is causing you pain. She needs to read and reread your stated revoltion at your past behavior, because then she can measure your actions against your words.

BUT, she needs to be honest with you, fear or no fear, or eventually this marriage will end. Perhaps not with divorce, but emotionally and spiritually it will end. People living in fear don't do well, and marriages that exist in fear don't prosper. You know that now, thus you are changing. She needs to change as well.

That "wonderful and gentle" woman is in fact a liar and a cheat. There were other more honorable and morally acceptable ways of addressing your abuse and she did not select any of them.

Until she actually confesses her affair and is honest about it, you have every reason to fear the future with her.

Please think about this.

JL

Yes,disclose that you know and request the truth. Just do not be abusive. How hard is that?

See hurtingturkey, I can't in good faith answer that question, because I am of the opinion that you should use proper boundaries with your WW and go to Plan B if she refuses to reveal who OM is - without knowledge of WHO he is, you can't be sure of no contact...You also can't send him a proper NC letter...The way things are currently in your situation, recovery is being halted...

Again, you are swinging way too far in the other direction - your abuse does NOT justify her abuse of you...She had other options than an affair - She could have and should have used boundary enforcement where your verbal abuse was concerned, but those would most certainly not include committing adultery...My mother withstood verbal abuse for years at the hands of my mentally ill father, [as did I] but she NEVER committed adultery in response to it...So, yes, I have seen verbal abuse from a very close vantage point...

hurtingturkey, have you considered contacting the Harleys for help? I think they could greatly assist the two of you in sorting things out in a healthier manner than it appears you are doing currently...

And you and I will have to agree to disagree on the WW as "wonderful" and "gentle" thing...From my POV as a FWW, a WW is about as gentle as a ticked off rattlesnake...

Mrs. W

HT,

I love MrsW's analogy. She said

Let's see, relatively quiet, incapable of running you over, incapable of stomping you to death, just a gentle nip and...YOUR DEAD.

Yup she nailed it. Yes, you might have been the abusive bull, raging, romping and stomping and pillaging all that bother you, but your W???? Just a gentle nip and you are dead.

Abuse comes in many forms my friend. I am glad you recognize yours and are addressing it. But, you are not the only deadly thing in the pasture my friend, not by a long shot.

Please think carefully about what Mrs. W is telling you.

JL

PS: We are NOT trying to get you to hate your W or walk from your marriage. We are trying to get you to see things clearly. You cannot address what you cannot see. Your abuse blinded you before. Your reaction to your abusive behavior is blinding you now.

Melody Lane
BTW, just as I started to respond to you I received a text from my WW that simply says "Love You" and I choose to believe that. I did not ask her to send that and it was not in response to me sending an "I love you."
That is progress, believe me. I have had a gentle calm discussion with my WW. It produced nothing but denials that so many are familiar with and I chose to let it go for the time being. She is not ready yet. She may never reveal him. I have to face that possibility and decide what I will do but that decision is for the future. My wonderful, gentle wife is not a healthy functioning woman right now. No WW (male or female) is. I think my WW has been in withdrawl (but I recognize I could be wrong)and that the fog is lifting. Most of my tape recording proof is my wonderful, gentle wife talking to herself in her car (although I also have her talking to a friend). Now, I also have a tape of an auto mechanic laughing about his fat butt not fitting in the front seat of my wife's compact car so I don't want to extrapolate to far but... what would you think if you had a forty minute tape recording of your spouse talking non stop to themself in their car? No, my wonderful, gentle wife is not 100% healthy. I managed to get her to a psychologist last May to deal with her stress in college and I also got her to a physician who has her on a fairly significant dose of antipsychotic medicine. And I love her. And yes, I fear between my verbal abuse and her A that she is broken and I am crying real tears as I type this (and like my son, I also was combat tested as a Marine but this subject makes me cry).
Lots of Anger Management Training (now approaching 140 hours) has taught me to re-frame life events to eliminate the pain that tends to lead to anger. If I view my WW's A as a way of creating pain and hurt in me, I would never be free of anger. I choose to see the A as simply the wrong coping mechanism (she should have left me and filed). In the group of reforming Verbal Abusers I work with every day of my life now, 100% of the men there got there when there Wife or Girl Friend left or filed and nearly 90% of those poor woman found the support of another man before they did. That is a factual survey result. Male Verbal Abuse sets the stage for an A. And amazingly, its the A that wakes up the verbal abuser from the spell (the author Patricia Evans' term for verbal abusers behavior and probably synonymous with Dr. Harley's term the fog)that allows them to verbally abuse without recognizing the harm. I did it for twelve years.
I have great empathy for my WW not anger. I am not even angry at myself (quite so much) anymore. Mostly I am disappointed with me and my wonderful, gentle, WW. We are both better people than what we have done. I even have empathy for the OM because I will end up with my WW and he will not. That is what 140 hours of intense Anger Management Training can do for you. And it has for me. For the first time in over a decade I don't live on anger and I don't hate myself for not being good enough.
Mostly at this point, I am healing. Its my wonderful, gentle WW who needs to heal and that is why I would like her to be able to reveal him. I think based on what I have heard on tape that her own behavior is eating her alive.
I don't want my WW suicidal or schizophrenic over what has happened. I love her.
Two other thoughts... Melody Lane, you were a key person that kept me alive last summer even though I cannot help you and recall my screen name from the lost posts. God Bless you for that. I am very serious. If you ever wondered if you did some good with your life, I am typing to you this afternoon because you cared about a stranger that was hurting. No one will ever give you medal like you were a life guard but you were there with words that made a difference.

Anyone else with experience in that moment of revealing the A? Surely some have had time to think about how it could have been done better? My instincts tell me I am going to hear something soon and I want very much to be the best husband I can. Thank you.

Princessmeggy:
Pretty name. I see your signature emoticons and that gives me hope. Please read my response to Melodylane regarding the "capable enough woman"
I know you are correct in the getting it out in the open. But I certainly set the stage to make being honest a terribly frightening circumstance. Think of someone who is claustrophobic and that is the situation I have created I fear. AND be mindful that Dr. H. does say that sometimes the person who commits the A is so distraught and disturbed that they can become suicidal. I am truly worried about my wonderful, gentle WW.

Hurting....where did you seek help for the verbal abuse?

Mopey,
Not sure if I can name another site here in response to your question. Hope this does not get me censored...
I found an anger management on line course from A J Novick. Around $500 for the first 60 hour course. I put my heart and soul into it. If you google "A J Novick Anger Class On Line" I believe you will find it. I went through the course over approximately two and one half weeks and I put my heart and soul into it. It was fantastic for me. I went through a period of terrible flashbacks and panic attacks. At one point I drove from work to home in fear my WW was with him on her day off from school (college) and made it 75 miles in 55 minutes. It was very rough. WW was driving our lawn mower when I got home....
I also found a site known as MEVAC (Men Ending Verbal Abuse and Control) and joined shortly after completing the 60 hour on line course. It was amazing what re-framing something that happened during our engagement did for me and also for my WW. Its too long a story but that incident triggered years of verbal abuse from me and I now see that terrible incident very differently (it involved my then fiancee leaving me alone at a company party for twenty minutes while she sat and talked to a previous boy friend). Boy, I was sure going to make certain that never happened again. And I used years of verbal abuse as a control mechanism. Now 12 years later I have reframed that memory and I realize that my fiancee was saying goodbye, and that she freely chose to make her life with me (previously I just saw me as not being good enough and perhaps the most wonderfully happy night in my life celebrating our engagement turned into a terribly devistating experience unmatched by anything I had ever experienced before in my life). Once I reframed that memory and talked with my WW about it and saw it from her eyes (she cared for that man and saw his hurt at her enagement to me), I had empathy for both of them. I also turned to prayer and with all my being prayed and asked God to let me forgive what happened was happening and within two days I believe my prayer was answered as the panic attacks subsided and I became much more at peace. My hurt and anger was destroying me. Add my guilt and all I was doing was allowing my emotions to make me miserable.
I am daily journaling on MEVAC and corresponding with others in my situation. I pray I never return to what I was. After the anger management first course, MEVAC became a blessing for me as it forces me to keep my behavior in my conscious mind on a daily basis.

Two books by Patricia Evans are terrific reading and I have highlighted dozens of passages - Controlling People and The Verbally Abusive Relationship. The marketers have made the books sound like they are for victims but really I believe they are written for perpetrators....
But my journey to stop my Verbal Abuse came from reading Love Busters and His Needs Her Needs by Dr. H. The idea to take Anger Management Training came after I realized what I was doing to destroy my own family by reading them.

Yes my WW has been terrible to me and witholding now is dishonest. But I do sense that she is getting up the courage now to talk with me. There is no way to force this revelation without me becoming controling. I can only control me. I cannot be trusted to set my own boundries because of the habits I have formed. Its going to be a life long process that I dare not violate. Rules that some of you can well use cannot be applied to me because of what I have done. I was not planning on hijacking my own thread but its worth sharing a letter from my WW to me before she went wayward.... It might help someone else write a letter that might make a difference in their marriage....

Here are two of five letters written to me over the past few years... Yes the author is my WW and I will maintain that she is beautiful, wonderful and gentle. I used to try and explain away my behavior by my upbringing in a NY City Suburb and I would point to the movie "My Cousin Vinny" and laugh and say "See, this is the culture I grew up in." Well, my wife did not grow up that way. She hid in closets when her parents would fight. I had no empathy for her reaction to a raised voice.

Dear ______:
So many times I want to write to you and tell you my thoughts because no matter what I say if we try to sit down and talk things out you will twist what I say and only hear what you want to hear. Let's face it we can't communicate. You want to see things your way and only your way and when I ask you to compromise you tell me NO, you tell me that you won't do that because that means someone has to be a winner and the other a loser. Sorry, I don't get that and I wasn't brought up that way. Even at work you have to compromise sometimes, so I don't see where or why you won't do that with me.

As you read this letter and you're asking yourself if I'm angry, hurt, SCARRED, insecure, broken, and feeling helpless as to what else to do, then you are absolutely right. For some reason you can't or won't see that what you do to me and how you treat me just pushes me further away from you. Every angry action you display towards me has that affect on me. It's from years of constant bouts of anger and threats from you and they continue to this day. It's like taking one limb at a time off of my body and I'm now left with just one part and that's my heart. There's just not much left. Now, am I ready to throw in the towel and just quit? No. I think that we may still have a chance if you can do the following. It's up to you. Do you want this to work? Do you want to get better? Do you want to have a happy life and a happy marriage with me? It falls on your shoulders here. I'm willing to go to marriage counceling but it has to be mutual. You have a lot to think about.

You know we got along better when we were working companions and just friends. In fact, you treat your employees like gold, but you don't treat me the same way! You have a HOT temper and with that your personality changes and that only instills fear in me and makes me afraid of you and when your next explosion will be. You also don't appreciate me. You want things from me that YOU have taken away like my security, my openness, trust, self esteem, and feelings of affection (because you have pushed me away with fear). You don't want to recognize or accept that your temper, or (bad behavior/ fits of rage) whatever you want to call it is SO DAMAGING to our marriage. I'm not sure HOW it can be repaired or even IF it can be repaired.

I would think that if you truely loved me and wanted our marriage to work, you would be more than willing to go see a doctor to get on some medicine or therapy. But therapy will not work if your are NOT honest with them about yourself. You know that you do have a problem with your anger and if you want to save your marriage I'm going to tell you right now that this is what you are going to have to try.

I cannot talk with you because you won't listen. You turn my words around and every word I say becomes criticism to you, no matter WHAT I say or how I say it. You only want to hear your side of things. We will never see things the same! After ten years of marriage that is the way it has been and I don't forsee it changing. We are just simply opposite in everything.
You are NOT the same person I fell in love with at work. You were gentle, kind, encouraging, supportive, helpful, warm, outgoing, and you made me feel secure and loved. You are not this person today. Your anger (temper), your past relationships y(ex-wife and fiance) problems with your children, your anxiety from work/finances has forever changed you ________ and you take your frustrations and anger about these problems out on me!
You tell me that you get attention from the women at work and they make you feel good. I remember you telling me one time that you can understand why people have affairs at work because they leave their stress at home and they are feeling fresh at work. (That comment makes me wonder every day.) Well ______, you are NOT the same person at (work) as you are at (home) and they only see the good side of you all day. I live with you and all of your PAST and STRESS is placed on me. Everytime you lose the weight you gain it right back. Your sleep apnea and snoring is bad again and I'm sure your blood pressure isn't any better. I've tried supporting you and making suggestions and even 8 year old son has tried and you don't want to listen. You have to do it on your own.

YOu say that I take and you give and that I don't give anything in return. In other words you are saying "whats in it for me". I don't take ______. I have always worked my whole life up until 2005 when we both agreed for me to go back to school and further my education so I would have more working opportunities which in turn would be better for "us." I have offered to work and do school and care and run for the boy's. I have offered to quit school and just work and take care of the boys all of which you say NO to. I don't bleed you of money and never have nor have I ever stolen money from you. You are angry over a lot of poor financial decisions that you made with money (listenting to Dave Ramsey) and want to blame someone other than yourself and so it falls on me again. As far as me not giving. I give every single day of myself. I am pursuing a new career, trying to balance my school and study time with my childrens study and sports time and still take care of everything at home. Am I able to give a lot of time to you when you get home at 7:30, usually not, but I expect you as my husband and a 54 year old grown adult to be able to understand all of the demands I have on my shoulders too.


I wonder if you flipped your good side you show at work (This is Hurting Turkey and just inside this parenthetical thought I am going to jump into the letter here and explain that I manage a large hosptal as an Administrator where I have a reputation as a "good guy") and carried that home with you if you'd have a better marriage? I wonder if you flipped your stress and anger that you carry at home and carried that to work with you if everyone would still see the same __________(you) that they see today. I wonder if they would even like you??????????

I am trying to be as clear and open with you today ______ as I possibley can. Since we can't seem to talk to one another then maybe you can get something out of this letter. You probably will twist words in this letter too. When I do try to talk to you, you cut me off and start talking and won't let me get a word in. THat's not only RUDE but nonproductive. I know you don't do that to your boss when he is trying to talk to you!
I just start to shut down completely and that's where I am now.

After getting away for a few days to visit a friend and rethinking my life and our lives together, I tried to see some different things that maybe I could try to do different that might make a difference with "us." We ate out after the airport. That was nice, but you really didn't want to and I could tell. I suggested that we go to the movies. You really didn't want to because you said I had already had seen the movie so why whould I want to go again. I felt like I was having to drag you there. It didn't matter if I saw it once. I was trying to get us to do something together. You still didn't seem very happy with that. The only time you are happy and get great satisfaction is if "WE" are doing something that "YOU" want to do. Example, go sailing. THis makes "you" happy and it's something that "YOU" want to do. Going on vacation to where you want". This is something that "YOU" want to do. I don't ever get a choice and neither does our son.. You have told me that you earn the money so you feel justified that we go on vacations where "YOU" want to go. This is the way it has been for 10 years. THis is the only way that you are happy and feels satisfaction. So if things go "your way" then we don't have any problems and if I disagree with you about something your are ready to either throw in the towel or threaten me to send your kids back home. (Example: your son _____ and most recently, your daughter and her husband.) Nobody else has a say so in making decisions but you. THATS WRONG! A marriage is suppose to be shared by TWO in EVERYTHING! That includes decisions and vacations. I am not saying that I don't enjoy sailing or ski-ing or going to visit the Cape but there are other things to do that are fun in life and there are other places that I would like to see. Quite frankly less expensive to do too! ONce again, it has to be your way or no way.......... YOu won't find a happy relationship living on your terms solely _______.

You say that you are not happy and you want "me" to end our marriage. I am not happy either but I feel that maybe there might be one last chance to make things better and to make our marriage work." After observing other married couples and seeing their happiness after years of marriage it makes me wonder what their secret is, or even if there is one. Are they just very lucky to find someone who is very compatible with them? I have seen many different things and I have never seen a marriage work when there is verbal or physical abuse in then. These are some things that I want out of our marriage and I don't know if you are willing to change or even try to make them happen. But if I put them on paper mayber this will be a forever reminder of what I need from my husband.

1. I want and need to have a husband that I can trust. I have told you personal things about my past and you have thrown them in my face and have used that information to hurt me when you've been angry. You have also lied to me about things concerning your kids. YOu have threatened me that you have told them something and then later I find out that you didn't. Jumping out of cars or threatening to drive into a trees, threatening to tell your son and daughter not to come here or to leave are( THREATS and LIES) THAT BREAK ALL BONDS OF TRUST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

2. I need a husband to want to hold me and love me, one who absolutely adores me and ACTS like it. A husband that is most sincere about being with me and NOT hurting me. Your harsh words hurt more than I can tell you . That's not love! I cannot reach out to you to hug you when you have yelled at me and have threatened me with something. It just pushes me further away. YOu are not acting gentle and kind in any way when you display this type of behavior to me. I simply don't like you when you treat me like that and I don't want to be anywhere near you when you act this way with me! No woman would, don't you get it.

3. I need a husband to make me feel safe and secure. This also ties into trust. YOu have to have trust before you can feel safe and secure with someone. I can't open my arms up to you if I think you are going to hurt me with hurtful words and threats. (Example: Jumping out of the car and leaving me and your son on the side of the road to drive ourselves home) WHat a horrible scene that was for your son and he is old enough that he will remember that. And you won't even promise me that you will never act in that manner again. How terrible. Making me apologize for something I didn't do before you would get back into the car to go home some two hours later. How childish! I promise you _____, if you ever think of pulling that again I will continue to drive on and not look back.

I need a best friend or a sole mate. Whatever you want to call it, I need my husband to be able to read me like a book. I have told you for years what you have been doing to me is very damaging and hurtful and I have begged you to stop. It still continues.

5. I need a husband that I can share my thoughts, worries, happiness, accomplishments, dreams and future with. I need someone I can dream with. Someone that will want to spend the morning or evening working in the yard or sitting on the patio just enjoying the flowers and a good conversation. YOu used to enjoy doing those things with me. When I try to talk to you about dreaming of going here or there or re-modeling the house you just tell me that I'm not satisfied with what we have. You would be happier living in a camper and I would rather have a nice home for my family. We don't share the same dreams and you make me feel like I should stop dreaming. That's wrong.

6. I need a husband that will share responsibilities of the home as well. Our home is our biggest asset. My home is my castle as it should be yours. I am very proud of my home and I have worked very hard on it and EVERYONE knows how hard I have worked on this house and yard. I feel like I am the only one that cares about our home and takes care of it. I have been the carpenter, plumber, electrician, roofer, landscaper, mother, wife, student, transporter, housekeeper, cook, laundry keeper and whatever else comes along (all by myself.) and you know that, I don't ask for a ribbon or a trophy, ( I dont' believe in entitlements for doing what needs to be done) I just do what needs to be done. YOu on the other hand ALWAYS expect something for your efforts. (Your attitude is what's in it for me?) There aren't too many wives that will take on all that I do. In fact, I don't know any! I beleive that you take me for granted! We are so different. Most women would not try to conquor all of this but it's either I take care of it or it doesn't get done. You don't seem to have any pride in our home. YOu just want to think negative about it and not be happy to live here. That's your choice. Most people would be elated to have a home like ours and would be proud to keep it up. You simply just don't care.

7.I need a husband that wants to do things as a family as well. I realize your work hours are long ______ but so are other fathers/husbands here in our Co. They still make time to spend with their children and wife. Most husbands/fathers here in this town work two jobs. You don't spend much time at all with Johnathan and when you do you are not patient. If ___________ doesn't want to do what YOU want to do then you just leave him. You need to think about what your son would like to do. He's the little boy, not you.

8. I need a husbad that will pamper me and surprise me with thoughtful gifts of love and special little nothings. By that I mean, lets go out for dinner tonight or I made you coffee and muffins for breakfast or I'll fix dinner tonight or why don't we work on fixing the shed up like the Cape Cottage look that we both like to keep a little "Cape Cod" here at home or lets work together and put bead board on the stair rail. I would like to see you make an effort to do something for me, us (together). Instead I see you come home grab something to eat and plop down on the couch for the night. When I ask you to sit outside on the patio for a while you complain it's too hot and you are use to air conditioning all day, but if it was a good time to go to the boat and the wind was right, you would change cloths in a New York minute and be on the water regardless of the heat! (See, it has to be something you want to do.)

9. I would like a husband that shows some self pride in himself, his home and family.
���������������������_____. if I ask you to go to the doctor about your sleep apnea that worsens with your weight gain, your bad teeth that you neglect to get fixed, or for you to get medicine for your anxiety, sleep or weight control you call that critisizm. I simply care ���������_________ and you should to. I'm your wife. If I can't talk to you about it, who will??????????? I don't know why you are happy to wear dirty, wrinkled snagged dress suit pants to work in. You are upper administration. You should want to look neat, appropriate, professional. IT's not about appearance ________, it's about self -esteem. You have an image or should I say an example you should set for others. I am embarrased when I see you wear dirty, torn pants to work when you have 12 suits in your closet that are very nice, neat clean and professional looking. You should want to look your best when you go to work or atleast clean. You have a boss that expcects that and you know it! He expects you to look professional and the cloths you have been wearing are far from that. The women in the office won't say anything to you because it would embarass them and you. I'm your wife, I have to be honest with you even if you don't agree or want to hear it. It's true.

Your family and kids have asked you to take better care of yourself and you just refuse to do so. We don't understand. I believe that it sets a terrible example for your son and to me that is very important that your son have a good self esteem about himself and it's up to us his mom and dad to set good examples for him.

10. I would like to be able to "laugh" with my husband and to share "fun things" together. Not just sailing...................Can you not look beyond sailing to having fun doing something else or going somewhere else??????????? I can't remember when I felt so relaxed with you that I was at ease enough to laugh and not be afraid that you would get mad about something and explode. That's how much fear I
have inside.

11. I want a husband that has positive things to say. One that doesn't always think the worst or talk negative about anything and everything. You always seem to think the worse first about anything. We are so opposite. I do know that if you think the worst then it will probably be that way, but if you try to think something positive or how to turn negative into positive you probably will have a pretty good outcome. I am more optimistic about things in life and you are always pessimistic. I just really don't think that is helpful to ANYONE, expecially our marriage.

12..I want a husband that can hold back his temper, anger, fits of rage,and verbal abuse. I swore that I would never be with a man that had a temper like I remember my father having and I have told you before your temper is far worse than my dads ever was! You have got to go to the doctor and get help ________ and you need medicine to manage your anxiety and anger it's destroying our relationship.

These are just some things that I would like to see in my husband, you. If you don't think that you can live with these changes then I truely believe that we need to sit down and talk about seperating. You have made it quite clear to me over the phone the other day that you are much happier with the women in the office than with me.(You said that they make you feel good.) I can't seem to please you, make you happy and give you what you want and right now it's because of how you treat me. It's you _______!

I simply cannot give you what you are asking of me if YOU cannot change the way you act towards me. You have recently told me that I have changed. I really don't see much change other than I'm NOT going to sit quietly while you throw hurtful angry words at me and not stand up for myself. If you don't know it , it's the same thing as sitting still while someone beats on you. I'm not going to let you do that to me! I do have the right to talk, I do have the right to disagree with you, I do have the right to have feelings, I do have the right to tell you that you are hurting me and I do have the right to say STOP IT!

I have watched your daughter and son\in law this when they were down, ____ and _____ and even my friends in _______ how their marriage still blossoms and they are full of life, happiness, fun, love, respect, trust, and they continue to dream to do things together and to be able to build their home and life together. They work together, trust one another, are kind to one another, help each other out, laugh together, cry together, pray together. They simply are happy and good to one another. *** I have NEVER seen one ounce of temper out of any of these men.

This is what I wish our marriage to be like.

I have seen what we don't have and it's sad, really devastating. There are so many broken pieces and I'm not sure that "you" will be able to put the pieces back together. I think we need marriage counceling and that you need to go to the doctor for some medicine. If Paxil still works for you then you should try it, if not try something else. You need to recognize and admit your problems, face the facts, jump out of denial and just try to get better. If not for yourself or our marriage, or simply do it for Johnathan.

I probably was wrong for talking with your son and not telling you. But me telling him about your behavior is not a secret. He has seen your actions for years, way beyond the time he was living with us. He already knows, all your kids do. That has nothing to do with me and I wasn't a part of your life 15-20 some odd years ago. So me telling him about your anger episode in July really is just another one of your episodes he's already aware of. But you lieing to me about having your bronther involved in this is quite crazy. Do you know that I almost called him yesterday morning? Did you even think about that? What were you thinking??????????? involving your brother in your lies. Just another example. Yes, you got me to open up but look at how you did it and it almost cost you some real issues with your brother. You just keep making things worse.

It's our marriage at stake here _____ and we both know that it's on it's last leg unless we make some major changes. I do love you _______ and it hurts me when you tell me constantly that I don't, in fact it's extremely damaging! I have told you this for 10 years!!!!!!!!!!!! I love the old _______ that I meant at ______ not the ______that has hurt me with angry words and threats and continues to do so. So, I do love you ____, I just really don't know if I can continue to live with you if you continue this behavior.

Maybe you feel the same way.

________

Next Letter



____:

Once again I am disturbed by your temperment from lastnight and some of the remarks you made in reference to me and this mornings remarks.

#1. In your opinion you stated that the reason I am having problems with my nursing class today at age 47 is because my parents didn't drill me and yell at me when doing my homework to make me a better student. Well,..................once again you are WRONG. What a hurtful thing to say! Neither one of my parents yelled at me when I didn't understand my homework nor did they want to!!!!! My parents were VERY SUPPORTIVE AND PROUD of me with my school work, especially my mom. She helped me after school with my homework and if I didn't understand something I was allowed to call a friend and there were lots of things I didn't understand and I needed help with. Yelling does not work and I dare you to ask any councelor or psychologist/psychiatrist if they think that yelling/screaming/and throwing a temper tantrum as the PARENT is the right approach to getting a child to pay attention and do his homework better. I was a straight A student up until 8th. grade!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

#2. _____ is a lot like me, he does not respond well to your yelling and your temper (just like me.) IT works in a negative way instead of an positive way. You were not teaching him last night. What you did teach him is that he recognizes your temper and he knows that this is NOT the way to be. He does know right from wrong! It makes him sad and he worries about it. He worried all day at school about it, he told me so!!!!!! In fact that was the first thing he said to me when I picked him up from school!
________ folded lastnight because he was sad and afraid. In essence you bullied him into responding back to you after your rage. Don't blame him and don't blame me. You were the one who escalated the whole thing lastnight.

#3. I asked you to stop yelling. I asked you to stop the temper tantrum. I asked you to teach and not to drill him like a seagent. He is a little boy, 9 years old and I know that your mother and father didn't treat you that way, so why would you want to treat _______ in that manner. Your mother would disapprove of it. She was a great teacher and anyone will tell you the # 1 thing you must have as a teacher is PATIENCE! ____ works better with PRAISE....................NOT YELLING AT HIM! You just crush his self esteem when you yell at him. Is he weak for this??????..............NO. He is a 9 year old little boy. Who tried to make you an 18 year old man at the age of 9? Why do you want him to GROW up at age 9? He will always have some struggles, that doesn't make him lazy, careless, stupid or less likely to be a successful individual when he grows up!!!!!! You tell me stories of yourself, your brothers and sister in school and their struggles and accomplishments. They made it just fine in life didn't they and so did their children!!! DON'T MARK _______!!! He is a very good and loving little boy and he doesn't have to learn how to handle your current or previous boss at age 9. Save that for when he is closer to adulthood. Your father would not expect that of him either. And telling _______ than and myself that you would rather him grow up to hate you for your harsh punishment and behavior in teaching so that he will be successful in life is just another crazy and sad comment. What are you thinking. This kind of behavior will certainly turn him against you. Is that really what you want??????????????????????? for the rest of your life??????????????????

#4. I will always intervene when you act in anger or I see your temperment in flames. I am not just a WIFE, but I am a MOTHER too. And mothers instinctively protect and this is very natural for me to do with all of my kids. _____ is my business, 100% my business. I am his mom and I have his best interest at heart both (physical and MENTAL!!)
WE will get along and do just fine if you can find a different approach to teach ____ without using DRAMA< YELLING<SCREAMING>and displaying your temper at him. I DON"T WANT HIM TO GROW UP AND THINK THAT IT'S OK TO ACT THAT WAY TO YOUR CHILD. You need to think about the example you are setting for Johnathan and for his children!

#5. Yelling at me, throwing your fist/knuckle in a pantomime lastnight was not the right thing to do ______. You could have just told me what the nuns did to disciplin you and use yourself as the example. You didn't need to throw your fist across the island just inches from my face to get your point across. You DID make your point and I highly advise you to never come that close to hitting me in the face ever again. I wish you could see yourself when you get this way!!

#6.. Telling me this morning that I hate you because we had an arguement, or rather (you had the arguement) is just another comment I just don't understand. After 11 years of marriage I would think that by now you would STOP doing this. I have the right to be mad and hurt. You act as if, I don't. If I display hurt or disagreement then I must hate you. IF I fail to get a card right away, I must hate you. Where is your LOGIC here? This makes NO SENSE AT ALL! Holding our winter vacation over our heads is SO WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!We have planned this for a year and have paid down on it.We have all looked forward to it. Just because you are MAD does not give you the right to threaten me and Johnathan to take away our vacation to ski. That's very immature and hurtful. You did the same thing last year in July when leaving _______. (You threatened to cancel our vacation to the Cape.) Why can you NOT see the destruction that you cause when you cross the line with your temper? Don't you see how harmful it is??? Can you not see the damage that it causes?? Do you feel better when you explode? IT JUST MAKES THINGS WORSE................. WHY CAN'T YOU SEE THAT? Everyone else can.

#7. I do love the passionate, loving, thoughtful side of you ________. This is the person I fell in love with, NOT the __________ with an uncontrollable temper. I have said this over and over again a thousand times. When are you going to listen and get it???????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What is it going to take????????????????????? I don't want to argue, I really don't want to talk about this anymore. It was a VERY Unnecessary "scene" lastnight that didn't make anyone feel any better. What was the point???????????

End of Letters

Yes I know I am working on me. I believe my WW is trying to work on herself. But if you are still reading, you realize just how hellish I made her life and how afraid she really is. And if I find the name of the Other Man I will go to his wife or girl friend and I will expose. My mother in law and I have talked frankly about me and about this situation. She is on my side "Well, I did not bring her up to act like this." She does know but not a name. She even went so far as to tell me that she feels guilty because she encouraged my WW to study with other students to improve her grades. And that is where this started.

I have taken one of the letters suggested here and reworked it to fit our situation and am sending it tomorrow so that I am home over the weekend to talk about it.

Its a struggle as you all know.

I was abusive and viscious and yet I loved her. Crazy isn't it? How could I have done that? For the victims here, I can only tell you that I was a good person but I was caught up in the spell. If my wife is / was caught in the fog I believe it is a trap to categorize who she is. Her behavior is or was wrong but she is wonderful, and gentle. I firmly believe if you don't differentiate between the two that you can never find the empathy necessary to understand. I am terribly analytical and there are days when I want to scream "Help me understand. It is Hellishly hard to understand when they won't open up." You are all very right to say so. I pray that it will come soon.

Thank you to everyone for your thoughts.

I guess I now see Marriage as a process and not as a "Done Deal"
that you can check off on a list.

If just writing what I am experiencing benefits only me, please forgive me for being selfish. I am heartened by the responses here. I have HOPE.

Blessings All

Thanks to your explanation of the anger issue -I can understand your wife NOT giving the name of OM.She needs to know that you can keep your anger in check before she reveals everything.

This flies in the face of MB doctrine. I can understand that she may want to protect you from yourself.

I pray that God works with you that you may gain proper perspectives of those around you and that you can hand all judgment over to Him.

Imagine-
That anyone can read my wonderful, gentle WW's letters and even be willing to waste a word on me is amazing and speaks to your belief in God's strength and your incredible compassion for the failures of others. Thank you for your comments.
I may hold the record for Love Busters and why anyone would stay married to me speaks to the wonderful, gentleness of my WW. I have turned what I cannot handle over to God and He has been kind to give me the chance that I now have.
Mrs.W-
I know plan B is out there. I just cannot trust myself to set a time for that just yet because anger may well be involved in my decision and that is the wrong reason for Plan B. Every bad decision I have made in my life has resulted from me being angry.
As for marriage builders doctrine... its really a guideline and in my situation I am going to have to be really patient (and since May 2009 when I looked in the mirror and started my Plan A I have to realize that I cannot be impatient. It will take time for my wonderful, gentle WW to trust me again. For the time being I am going to suffer some more and also enjoy the beginnings of a relationship that I fractured beyond recognition with my own behavior.
Am I blind? No, I don't think so. I feel real pain as many of you here do. I just have to be realistic that she is not ready to reveal. Perhaps my WW's comment about her "problem is that she is too trusting" is the first sign of the fog getting less thick in response to my Plan A. I have to pin my hope on that.
I promise this board that I am not Plan A"ing" to get what I want. I am in Plan A at the moment because my wonderful, gentle WW deserves loving behavior from me and because I have realized that Plan A is who I want to be.
Thank you.