Such as?

Possable future affair partners, what wayward would want to give that up.

Waa Waa.

Can you say 'entitlement'?

BC, I think the real thing you should be asking yourself is, was she THIS person all along, and you didn't have the maturity or wisdom to see it before, or is she just fogged up? If the former, you might not really be compatible. If the latter, you should fight for the old her.

I am now beginning to ask myself if I ever did know this person. Before this she seemed to be quite responsible and trustworthy. Now I don't recognize who this person is. I have read here the phrase "aliens have inhabited my wife" and I can really identify with that. I am certainly seeing a side that I am not impressed with. This moral blow out is causing me to really question how much I am willing to tolerate.

I think this OM is now starting to take her for granted and not talking to her as much as she would like. She is telling me he is not revealing about where the relationship is at. He is involved in projects in his shop and does not spend enough time with her. She is getting the feeling she is in the way. But she likes him because he is more of a rugged type, where I have been in a job where you wear a suit. And on it goes. Blah Blah Blah.

The unnerving part is going through the turmoil of this sort of situation is I am finding I am getting disoriented as history gets rewritten coupled with the peculiar behaviors I am seeing. When I asked her if she is interested in restoring the marriage she tells me she needs to see "this" (her affair) through as she needs to see or she will always have questions in her mind.

She is threatened by me as I am logical and rational and she makes decisions intuitively, "it has to feel right" and she feels she can not present a case the way I can and she feels like I am always right because it seems so rational. That is bothering her.

I am beginning to realize now that my needs have not been met by her for a very long time. I need respect and appreciation and what she is doing is the most disrespectful thing I can think of. I am really starting to question whether it is worth it or not. Perhaps we are just too different.

BCB,

With due respect to those "intuitive" folks out there. Most people say they are intuitive because they are too lazy to sit down and think, OR they know what they are doing cannot be justified, but they want to do it anyway, so they will say "it feels right."

My thinking is your W knows what she is doing is wrong, but she doesn't want to face the consequences with you or even your children. You are noticing her pulling back from them right.

Now you have to decide if you want to be married to a woman that

1. Lies
2. Cheats
3. Is mentally lazy
4. does not meet your needs.
5. And to sum it up has lost her moral compass.

It is your call.

I read an interesting article on measuring intelligence a few weeks ago. The author was discussing the limitations of the standard IQ test, or even the SAT tests as they are essentially IQ tests. The author noted that success is not all that well correlated with IQ or SAT scores. Speculating that there must another form of intelligence which has been called "rational intelligence".

It was a long article, but they offered some very simple logic/math questions to illustrate this point. What they noted was the even the high IQ folks often missed the question. In one case it seems there isn't enough data. Actualy there is and once the high IQ folks were told there was, they figured it out.

The point being even the high IQ folks resorted to guessing/feeling/intuition, when rational thought was required.

I work in a field that is very mathematical, but any progress is usually made by an intuitive guess, followed by years of work to decide if the intuitive guess was actually correct. This requires both intuition and then a willingness to spend time testing the intuition.

You could argue that your W used intuition to select OM and she is simply asking for time to test her guess. However, that arguement is weakened considerably when concepts such as marriage, vows, integrity are brought into the picture.

You have an woman that is in an active affair, she doesn't care that you know, your children know, and her friends know. What is there to save at this point. She has to be willing to do the work and she has not seen fit to even try. I think the clearest indicator is her behavior toward your children.

Look at the data clearly and I think your answers will be forthcoming.

God Bless,

JL

Bless you JL

I am now beginning to realize my problem has been "disbelief". I have been having a hard time comprehending this is actually happening and the things that are happening can be summarized like you have so succinctly done. I have been in denial that my wife can actually act in such questionable manner and be so self absorbed. I am now finally getting to a place where I am starting to feel like I really don't like the person she has become.

I have to accept, based on what I have observed there would be a high probability WW would probably relapse even if we did get back together.

I knew I could count on you for a dose of the harsh reality I need to wake up out of my stupor of denial. I thank you for the clarity you provide. I need to reignite my boundaries and move on. I need to wrestle my fear of being lonely to the ground.

I realize I have been trying to avoid the idea that this will not work out. I think the idea of moving on has triggered a level of uncertainty for the future. I have been avoiding thinking that it may be over because of my desire to have a happy family. There is a difference between hope and reality.

Thank you for caring enough to help take off my blinders.

BCB,

Let's take what you said further. You have a fear of being alone. Aren't you alone now? I cannot imagine how lonely it must be to be ignored by ones W and be unable due to vows, commments and moral compass seek friendship with someone else. You are there now.

You have children, enjoy them and their lives. Become a bigger part of their lives. Your marriage as you know it is over. The woman that you married has morphed into someone else.

You should follow your path and right now it does not lead to marriage. BUT... the aliens may beam her down from the mothership someday. That being the case and assuming you have not started a new marriage or relationship, I would suggest that you give her a chance if that occurs. However, the changes should be large, obvious, and well thought by her. She should have a plan to protect herself and by definition you from behavior such as she is displaying.

BCB, I cannot tell you what the future will hold, but I do believe that as you do the right things, you will come to accept that you did your best, and you tried. You are a man of morals and compassion. You are also a man of some accomplishment and rational thought (you can see the data and know what it means). Use all of your talents and I think things will work out well for you.

You are NOT losing your family, your children are still available and you should be the best Dad you can be, the best GrandDad you should be. You have a family seek comfort in that fact as well. What you have lost is the person you thought was a life time companion, she had other ideas. It was her choice and her call. Give her the respect she deserves and heed her decisions.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

JL
I cannot thank you enough, I so appreciate your thoughts and advice. I find it interesting that I do not feel comfortable addressing this issue with my friends any longer ( I think they are tired of hearing about it and they really don't understand what a person is going through).

It is such great comfort to be able to come here and deal with the stuff we are trying to face. Some days I wonder if I will ever conquer this mountain.

This is the most difficult issue I have ever had to deal with in my lifetime. I hope one day I will be able to look back and say I am glad it is over. I hope that day is soon.

Oof. I feel as though parts of this were directed right at me

All except the "mentally lazy," in my case. While she's not well-educated in the traditional sense of the word, she's got a very level, logical way about her.
In this case, it's her children, but that only makes it worse, in my opinion.

Is this uncommon? I admit that I read a lot of threads here where there seem to be less-than-favorable odds on recovery...

BC: I have never posted to you before but wanted to acknowledge that your wife stole my H's script because this is exactly what he's been saying to me since D-Day. "I need to see it through...." "It has to feel right." I did Plan A for close to 1 year. Much too long. I've learned a great deal, as you are right now about yourself.
My H told me about 6 weeks ago that he wasn't coming home because he couldn't meet my needs, that he's too far gone, and that it's not fair to me.....
I've decided to let him have his way. So be it. After 25 years, it's that easy, regardless of the "fog" and his wayward mind, I've decided that enough is enough. He has definitely lost his mind and I deserve better.
I also discovered, like you, that your needs haven't been met for quite some time. I've been emotionally deprived for almost 3 years and literally starving for love and attention. There's no reason to martyr yourself and await their "awakening" from this stupor so that your needs can be met by them.
I recently decided to let it go and move on. I am letting him "see it through" as he says. I believe, wholeheartedly, that he will definitely "see it through."
I encourage you to put yourself in a mirrored room (in your mind) and start focusing on what YOU want and need. Write those things down. Be extra clear to yourself about what those things are. Then, own them and make yourself a vow that you will have them. Nobody else can take care of these things for you.
I have no regrets given the amount of energy and commitment I gave to Plan A.
I've discovered that I need to preserve myself for a future healthy relationship. If I don't make sure that I recover myself now, I'm concerned that the damage done to me might impede a healthy relationship from forming.
Make it about you. Take your eyes off of her and stop listening to what she says.
You've got to take the focus off of her and put it on yourself. Recover yourself.
I expect they'll see it through soon enough when they realize that there isn't anyone giving a sh*t about what they're doing. Make it about you.
You deserve so much more...
You teach others how to treat you. Don't put a discount on your heart tag...don't give it away so cheaply.
Hope this helps.
W

Warrioress
Thank you for you post. I wished I knew how to recover myself. I have heard these words and I have been trying to figure out what that looks like. I am not sure I know how just yet. It is awkward after a 33 year marriage to suddenly redefine what your life will be. I realize now I think I have had codependent behaviors in the relationship, trying to keep people happy and failing. She tells me she was trying to make me happy and could not do it anymore, and that is why she had to leave the relationship.

I can see her current affair blowing up soon. I got hopeful but now I will re-evaluate. The way JL has of cutting to the essence has really opened my eyes. If I step back from being emotionally involved and look at what character the person has that has behaved like this I would not choose to be with that person. I am now thinking I need to disengage from my intention of getting back together and learn to be comfortable with being single. And as JL says unless the aliens return the person I married and I am convinced there is a willingness to do the work needed for restoration, I will need to move on. I can see where I have been too tolerant and need to say enough is enough. OM you can have this person as I do not want a person who behaves like this.

I can see now that I would have a very difficult time trusting her again. And I know she is VERY reluctant to ever follow a plan, program or guideline of any type. She has always been rebellious and hates to have to follow rules, she feels too restricted. I have to realize any hope of following the MB process is unlikely. She avoids structure. I would want the structure of the MB process to follow as it provides clarity and a level playing field. She likes a loose structure so she can manipulate things to her liking.

So I keep writing here as it is cathartic. By writing and getting feedback clarity is starting to happen. What I am seeing is making me sad as I realize I am witnessing the death of some hopes and dreams I had. This winter I was hoping to be traveling in the southern USA with her. I had some nice ideas for our retirement together. So I now have to grieve the loss.

I hear people tell me I deserve much better. I hear them tell me I am a nice guy and that somewhere there will be a woman out there that will appreciate me. Right now I am having a hard time believing that. I don't know how to go about dating someone. I know I am not ready right now but I don't have a clue how you go about meeting someone these days. You see I married my High School sweetheart.

I hear you loud and clear on this one. I wonder about that as well. Right now I am not sure if I will want another relationship, but my problem is I find there is nothing like a good conversation with an intelligent woman. I appreciate the difference between men and women and I find the perspective a woman provides enhances my view and understanding on many of life's issues.

So it is one day at a time. One step at a time, and do not loose hope for the future.

Blessings
BCBoy

Oh PULLEAZE!

Warrioress, I'm glad you've finally reached your sanity. Good for you. You DO deserve better.

GIVE ME A BREAK!

I can't wait for him to see you, having a new life, loving it, WITHOUT him. What a surprise he'll have.

BCB,

I know I sound like I am pushing you toward divorce. Oddly that is really not what I would like to see happen. I too have been married for 30+ years, but did not marry until my 30's. I had a pretty good idea of the type of person I was marrying because she was an adult as well.

From your description I pick up that your W matured into a woman that you loved, but not exactly what you wanted or needed. Her rebelliousness might have been cute at 20, but at 40, it gets a little old. You also said

And you are wondering why she left the marriage when she felt she had alternatives???? BCB, not all of this is her fault I am sure, but the affair is. Which suggests that she is very immature in her coping skills. She might even have affaired down because she doesn't want to follow the rules and plans on leaving him as well, when she feels the relationship becomes too restrictive.

You don't have to worry about dating someone now. You have been having relationships with people all of your life: your friends, business assoicates, males and females. Treat people well and you will find that you will have many friends and of those friends perhaps there is someone there.

My point, don't start looking now, but trust that all of your life you have had relationships with people and for the most part have been successful with them.

Have you spoken to your children about all of this? What is their input? Can you arrange to spend time with them where they live? Speak to your clergyman/woman and get input there.

BCB, you have lots of options and who knows where your life will lead but don't be afraid to follow it.

God Bless,

JL

Thanks CAT. Much to his dismay, I've told him that I've started going out. I have decided that I'm going to do this slow and easy. I decide. I have found it satisfying and warming to be with others that appreciate my company, my conversation, and just me. I am making sure I get what I need. I am making sure I can give back what is given to me. It is giving me a chance to assess where I'm at in relation to the damage that my ego and self-confidence has endured and I'm rebuilding. I am as transparent as they can manage but I'm loving this process...not easy but definitely empowering.

BC: Recovering yourself is about releasing the grip on what you want to hold on to that really isn't there at this time. It's the past that you're gripping, and the future dreams that you are mourning...I REALLY know what that is.
But guess what? Keep yourself open to new experiences....keep your heart and soul open to it. You have to decide what it is you WANT. And from there, you have to really see if where you are seeking it can possible arrive. Stay open to the process, and trust that no matter how long you've been married....and I know it's been a long time, and there are thousands of memories to contend with, you can make new ones, and shove the old ones aside if they cause you pain.
Stay true to who you are and insist on being happy and feeling good. Settle for nothing less. I find it difficult in my empty house...empty nest too. But I am determined to love again, and be loved, and I'm not willing or interested in waiting long either. I didn't step out of this marriage...I didn't exit.
So, as far as I'm concerned, I still want what I always wanted and what I thrive in the most - being with someone that I can share my life with. I've put that energy out there. I am confident it will find me.
My challenge is to regain my inner compass and trust in it. I will not let my H ruin what I always believed in or destroy my aspiration for a happy future.
Honestly, if I was dating (and I am), I would NOT date my H knowing what I know about him now. Unscrupulous behaviors, and questionable moral character.
In addition, like you, I don't think I could ever truly trust anything he said to me, especially if he tried to reconcile. After 4 1/2 months of false recovery after telling him how important radical honesty and transparency was to me for my healing, I find out he was in contact with the OW the whole time, I knew that this was it. Hell no. Enough.
26 years together and this is the best he can do. I don't care how foggy, twisted, wayward, lost, MLC, confused, conflicted, emotionally stunted he may be....honestly, take responsibility for your horrid behavior! I lost my compassion for him. I decided it was time to redirect that energy to ME.
Do that for yourself...redirect the energy you exert in trying to figure her out, understand her issues, and all that stuff about your marriage, and focus on understanding yourself and what kind of man you've become and how you really want to live your life.
Take the reins. Let things play themselves out without trying to control it except for your own life. This attitude has helped me get back to center...to sleep, eat, and go out and rediscover life. I've been married a long time...and a very, married woman too. I've got to start over single. I'm trying to embrace it but I can tell you, I won't stay this way for long, because I don't want to.
BC - have faith in yourself...you are far more capable than you realize. We all are.
W

Moved to Warrioress' thread to avoid TJ

Mark

The thing with dating other people is that they too could be liers and cheaters that is why I am giving my H a chance here. I will wait for another year and half and see..I would rather deal with what I know that start dating and risk to attract the same kind of people.
BC, have you been talking to her a lot? It sounds like you are no longer on plan B. If you are having doubts about saving your M then cut contact completely with her. It looks like you are ready to move on. That is what I would do in your case. Three years of not meeting your EN are more than enough. If you have a social life you will eventually meet someone new. If you do not go out and live like in isolation you will think of your W all the time. It is up to you.But do not believe that the perfect person is out there waiting for you. We are all messed up at some level and some people are even more messed up than our WS.

These are the exact words my H told me. He is really making me happy now, is he?
I never got what he meant. I did not need him to make me happy. He also added: I want to be with a woman who can make me happy, that thinks like me...like the same things I do...! Then I got it! It is all about him. The OP is irrelevant as long as it reflects back to him what he wants her to reflect.
Your W is not seeing that in OM any longer. In six month the A will crumble. When it does she might be willing to do things more rationally.
Gut feelings are good, and at times we need to follow them. What is your gut feeling telling you to do with your M? This might be the time for you to NOT be so rational and listen to your inner voice. Be still and see what it tells you.

blessing

This is what I am struggling with. Because of the emotional turmoil I feel it is clouding my senses. One of the reasons I am here, is to dialogue with folks who understand this. This is not how I want it to be, I want to be able to get a clear direction, I don't want turmoil and confusion. One of the things that has happened to me during this time is to get in touch with my emotions. I was brought up that real men don't show emotion, and as a result I disconnected from them. So starting to pay attention to my emotions is relatively new and I still don't trust my interpretation of them yet.

I have found posting here and getting feedback helps see through the fog. I hope that makes sense.

I hear you about the selection process. Relationships are a lot of work and at this stage of life there are a number of folks that have baggage out there. It takes time to sift through that and the baggage does not appear immediately, as evidenced in the affairs that are taking place. The two year time frame is a reasonable amount of time for the baggage to appear thus the affair fantasy starts to crumble.

Similar to your case I am struggling with the issue that my wife likely has a personality disorder. She has many of the signs of Borderline (BPD) and that creates a different environment. With BPD it is all about them and their responses are not normal, their responses come from a different base.

I have learned a lot here, however I wished I did not have to learn these things for the reason I find myself here.

BCBoy

There is always a reason for things and what happened to us here might be a way to find ourselves and be truly happy.
Emotion and the mind are the same thing. Emotions are the physical response to a thought and they often are felt before the tought can be processed>
They can reveal to us the most basic fears. Fear itself that then turns in a million thoughts and mental movies. Fear is felt in the stomach, or as a punch in the chest sort of feeling...
Please read Eckhart Tolle's books. They helped me immensely
blessing

Today is the day for oldest daughter and son-in-law to renew their wedding vows. I am very proud of them. I am just getting ready to go and I get this frantic call (which I let go to voice mail) from WW about how she is just a mess. OM is coming with her and she is worried sick about what might happen. She is not making sense. I would like to ask her what she means. She does not know how I will react, in the message she told him he did not have to come and I think she did not want him to go, but she is the one who arranged for his invite.

Now she is panicking about not wanting to hurt me, will I be OK with it. I will not be returning the call but I am wondering why all of a sudden this becomes an issue? Is this part of the affair fog where they can't think things through?

I have been continuing to get reports that she is getting increasingly dissatisfied with OM as he is not meeting her expectations. So I am wondering if she is now starting to think about a back up plan because I know she is terrified of being alone.

If you are in Plan B why is she contacting you? Are you using a IM? How are you going to handle the event with her and OM there?

Gg

You are not doing a good plan B. Block her access and do not respond to the ones that get through.

Also inform DD that you will not be able to go because of your need for NC with WW until she goes NC with the OM.